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Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe

Wirey

Fartist
Post 28 says:

Sigh.

Thermite is used for thermite welding, a method used to connect grounding and bonding conductors. The volume of thermite in the Towers rubble is exactly consistent with this activity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exothermic_welding

Very foolish people keep bringing this up like it's new. It's not. Man, do you conspiracy types ever get any new ideas?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Lol, no I don't have a religion about 9/11
Then what is your reason for suggesting such an outrageously goofy and ultimately impossible series of occurrences as you have proposed here: that the fly ash in the concrete used in the WTC buildings was unique, formed by some unknown freak accident so that it consisted of billions of mostly iron microspheres, which violates construction codes and would never have been approved (even if it looked like concrete) because it would prevent the proper pizzolanic activity and thereby render the concrete unable to cement? (ASTM C311specifies the pizzolanic activity index that concrete used in construction must meet.)


High Temperatures, Persistent Heat & 'Molten Steel' at WTC Site Contradict Official Story

Extremely high temperatures were evident before and during the destruction of the World Trade Center Twin Towers and at Ground Zero. Seven minutes before the destruction of the South Tower, a flow of molten metal appeared, accompanied by several smaller flows, as documented by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). The material’s glowing color showed that its temperature was close to “white hot” at the very beginning of the flow and “yellow-orange” further down. Iron-rich spheres in the WTC dust are additional proof of temperatures above the melting point of iron. Pyroclastic-like, rapidly expanding dust clouds after the destruction of the Towers can also be explained only by the expansion of hot gases.

The high-temperature phenomena at Ground Zero are documented by various sources:

Bechtel engineers, responsible for safety at Ground Zero, wrote in the Journal of the American Society of Safety Engineers: “The debris pile at Ground Zero was always tremendously hot. Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400ºF to more than 2,800ºF.”

The fact that high-temperature phenomena were an important issue at Ground Zero is underscored by the large number of thermal images acquired: images by SPOT, MTI, AVIRIS/NASA, "Twin Otter"/U.S. Army, and at least 25 images by EarthData, taken between Sept. 16 and Oct. 25. In addition, temperature measurements by helicopter were taken each day, and the firefighters used onsite sensors too.

Many witnesses, including rescue personnel and firefighters working on the piles, described the phenomenon of “molten steel.” Terms used in witness statements are, for example, “molten steel,” beams “dripping from molten steel,” “molten steel … like you’re in a foundry. Like lava, from a volcano.” A photograph taken on September 27 by a Ground Zero worker shows an excavating machine lifting debris from the WTC wreckage dripping yellow/orange molten metal.

WTC clean-up workers and 9/11 artifacts architect Bart Voorsanger, in the PBS video “Relics from the Rubble,” described what must have been several tons of “fused element of steel ... molten steel and concrete and all of these things …all fused by the heat,” weighing several tons each. These foreign objects came to be known as “meteorites.”

[. . .]

FEMA documents in their Appendix C of its May 2002 WTC Building Performance Assessment Team study, for sample 1, “evidence of a severe high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation with subsequent intergranular melting.” A “sulfur-rich liquid” containing “primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur” “penetrated” into the steel.

The extremely high temperatures contradict the official story. Office and hydrocarbon fires burning in open air (~500° to 1,500° F) cannot reach temperatures in the range that iron or structural steel melts (2,700° F). This was even acknowledged by NIST’s Co-Project Leader, John Gross . . .​

http://www1.ae911truth.org/en/news-...eel-at-wtc-site-challenge-official-story.html

So you have no explanations for these other indicators of high temperatures?

And you have not been able to identify any error in the methodologies or conclusions of the Harrit et al. paper, in which it was found that the WTC dust samples contained unreacted thermitic material made of nanoparticles and exhibiting a narrower and more energetic exotherm than reference superthermite.

Can you provide even a single example of any sort of structure made of the same material in which the smaller upper portion fell upon and crushed the larger and stronger lower portion, then crushed itself?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Post 28 says:

Sigh.

Thermite is used for thermite welding, a method used to connect grounding and bonding conductors. The volume of thermite in the Towers rubble is exactly consistent with this activity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exothermic_welding
Utterly false. What a stupid claim. The red/gray chips of unreacted nanothermitic material are not in any way "consistent" with any welding of the building structure. Nanothermite did not even exist when the WTC buildings were constructed.
 

Wirey

Fartist
Utterly false. What a stupid claim. The red/gray chips of unreacted nanothermitic material are not in any way "consistent" with any welding of the building structure. Nanothermite did not even exist when the WTC buildings were constructed.

Yes they are and yes it did. Grow up. There's no magic elf on the North Pole, or a rabbit who poops chocolate eggs either. You sound, and I'm pretty sure might be, deluded.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
2500 architects and engineers agree on these distinguishing features of controlled demolition vs. gravitational induced collapse due to fires:

WTC Building #7, a 47-story high-rise not hit by an airplane, exhibited all the characteristics of classic controlled demolition with explosives:

1. Rapid onset of collapse
2. Sounds of explosions
3. Symmetrical structural failure
4. Free-fall acceleration through the path of what was greatest resistance
5. Imploded, collapsing completely, landing almost in its own footprint
6. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds
7. Expert corroboration from the top European controlled demolition professional
8. Foreknowledge of "collapse" by media, NYPD, FDNY

In the aftermath of WTC7's destruction, strong evidence of demolition using incendiary devices was discovered:

1. FEMA finds rapid oxidation and intergranular melting on structural steel samples
2. Several tons of molten metal reported by numerous highly qualified witnesses
3. Chemical signature of the incendiary thermite found in solidified molten metal, and dust samples

WTC7 exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire:

1. Slow onset with large visible deformations
2. Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, to the side most damaged by the fires)
3. Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel
4. High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never collapsed

explo2.jpg


As seen in this revealing photo, the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all of the characteristics of destruction by explosives:

1. Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration
2. Improbable symmetry of debris distribution
3. Extremely rapid onset of destruction
4. Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes
5. Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally
6. Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking
7. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds
8. 1200-foot-diameter debris field: no "pancaked" floors found
9. Isolated explosive ejections 20–40 stories below demolition front
10. Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame
11. Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises
12. Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples
13. Evidence of explosives found in dust samples

The three high-rises exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire:

Slow onset with large visible deformations

1. Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, intact, from the point of plane impact, to the side most damaged by the fires)
2. Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel
3. High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer-lasting fires have never collapsed
http://www1.ae911truth.org/en/news-...-and-building-7-on-911-by-david-chandler.html

Click for the hyperlinks to the evidence that substantiates the statements.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes they are and yes it did. Grow up.
Prove whatever it is you are claiming. The Wikipedia obviously didn't make any claim about unreacted nanothermite being part of any building. A wastebasket fire would turn buildings into bombs. Get a brain.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Then what is your reason for suggesting such an outrageously goofy and ultimately impossible series of occurrences as you have proposed here: that the fly ash in the concrete used in the WTC buildings was unique, formed by some unknown freak accident so that it consisted of billions of mostly iron microspheres, which violates construction codes and would never have been approved (even if it looked like concrete) because it would prevent the proper pizzolanic activity and thereby render the concrete unable to cement? (ASTM C311specifies the pizzolanic activity index that concrete used in construction must meet.)


High Temperatures, Persistent Heat & 'Molten Steel' at WTC Site Contradict Official Story

Extremely high temperatures were evident before and during the destruction of the World Trade Center Twin Towers and at Ground Zero. Seven minutes before the destruction of the South Tower, a flow of molten metal appeared, accompanied by several smaller flows, as documented by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). The material’s glowing color showed that its temperature was close to “white hot” at the very beginning of the flow and “yellow-orange” further down. Iron-rich spheres in the WTC dust are additional proof of temperatures above the melting point of iron. Pyroclastic-like, rapidly expanding dust clouds after the destruction of the Towers can also be explained only by the expansion of hot gases.

The high-temperature phenomena at Ground Zero are documented by various sources:

Bechtel engineers, responsible for safety at Ground Zero, wrote in the Journal of the American Society of Safety Engineers: “The debris pile at Ground Zero was always tremendously hot. Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400ºF to more than 2,800ºF.”

The fact that high-temperature phenomena were an important issue at Ground Zero is underscored by the large number of thermal images acquired: images by SPOT, MTI, AVIRIS/NASA, "Twin Otter"/U.S. Army, and at least 25 images by EarthData, taken between Sept. 16 and Oct. 25. In addition, temperature measurements by helicopter were taken each day, and the firefighters used onsite sensors too.

Many witnesses, including rescue personnel and firefighters working on the piles, described the phenomenon of “molten steel.” Terms used in witness statements are, for example, “molten steel,” beams “dripping from molten steel,” “molten steel … like you’re in a foundry. Like lava, from a volcano.” A photograph taken on September 27 by a Ground Zero worker shows an excavating machine lifting debris from the WTC wreckage dripping yellow/orange molten metal.

WTC clean-up workers and 9/11 artifacts architect Bart Voorsanger, in the PBS video “Relics from the Rubble,” described what must have been several tons of “fused element of steel ... molten steel and concrete and all of these things …all fused by the heat,” weighing several tons each. These foreign objects came to be known as “meteorites.”

[. . .]

FEMA documents in their Appendix C of its May 2002 WTC Building Performance Assessment Team study, for sample 1, “evidence of a severe high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation with subsequent intergranular melting.” A “sulfur-rich liquid” containing “primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur” “penetrated” into the steel.

The extremely high temperatures contradict the official story. Office and hydrocarbon fires burning in open air (~500° to 1,500° F) cannot reach temperatures in the range that iron or structural steel melts (2,700° F). This was even acknowledged by NIST’s Co-Project Leader, John Gross . . .​

http://www1.ae911truth.org/en/news-...eel-at-wtc-site-challenge-official-story.html

So you have no explanations for these other indicators of high temperatures?

And you have not been able to identify any error in the methodologies or conclusions of the Harrit et al. paper, in which it was found that the WTC dust samples contained unreacted thermitic material made of nanoparticles and exhibiting a narrower and more energetic exotherm than reference superthermite.

Can you provide even a single example of any sort of structure made of the same material in which the smaller upper portion fell upon and crushed the larger and stronger lower portion, then crushed itself?
Yes, I do have explanations for the other temperatures as I have stated several times. They involve the burning of gases that were a product of the fire, not burning of strategically planted explosives. Billions of microspheres is that an extrapolation? You should check your source, they didn't find billions. But if it is an extrapolation, please show the math that you used to conclude such.

The problem here is that these conspiracy theories are explained away by mundane occurrences. And no, they aren't far fetched. Fly ash is not held to such a high standard that it cannot contain an iron microsphere measured in nanometers, pockets of gas could easily reach high enough temperatures to cause surface melting of steel without greatly affecting the average temperature.


You are reaching. If there is some signature unique to the explosives involved I'm conspiracy theories that cannot be easily explained away...then bring it to the table. But, so far you have said temperatures must have been higher. Well sure, I am sure there were spots that were higher. And you have said, hey there are iron rich microspheres, well sure that can be accounted for in multiple ways. Is it also possible that this amount of thermite is consistent with the conspiracy theory? Idk, show your math. But even then it is kind of silly. Why use planes at all? Why not just blame some terrorist group for planting explosives? If a group is capable of such a conspiracy as you imply, then surely an easier conspiracy existed. But maybe not, why? Maybe there is some secret purpose? Or maybe you just committed yourself to a "inside job" perspective and now are having a hard time accepting anything but. So, you have gone to great lengths to avoid being "wrong."

Well, I will tell you what. I don't suffer from such an affliction. If someone comes forth with actual evidence, then I will say: "wow, I was wrong, turns out there was some sinister stuff going on." Then I will address the sinister stuff and move forward from there. But as of now, the "evidence" you have put forth is only indicative of some spots of higher temperatures than average (that is kind of how averages work-- add some lower numbers and some higher numbers then divide), and several microspheres of iron rich material amongst how many tonnes? When you have real evidence, then people will be persuaded. Until then, it just sounds like you really, really want there to be some illuminati type stuff going on. The more relevant question to me is: why are you so eager to believe the conspiracy?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes, I do have explanations for the other temperatures as I have stated several times. They involve the burning of gases that were a product of the fire
What “burning gases” are you talking about? What is the evidence of such “burning gases” in the WTC buildings that were hot enough to melt steel and molybdenum? Cite your sources. No such gases that burn at such temperatures are noted here: http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html

Extremely hot fires cause glass to shatter--such as has been seen in a number of burning high-rise buildings. No such shattering glass occurred in the WTC fires. Why not?

Billions of microspheres is that an extrapolation?
An estimate on the basis of the weight percentage that the iron microspheres constituted of the dust, according to RJ Lee Group.

The problem here is that these conspiracy theories are explained away by mundane occurrences.
(1) I haven't spoken of any conspiracy on this thread. This thread is about the evidence. If you reject all conspiracy theories concerning the events of 9/11, then you reject the official government story, which is a conspiracy theory (but one that does not account for the evidence).

(2) You haven't noted any "mundane occurrences" that account for (a) the red/gray chips of unreacted nanothermite; (b) the billions of iron-rich microspheres in the dust; or (c) the other evidence of temperatures much higher than hydrocarbon fires burn (e.g., molten steel dripping from the South Tower; molten steel filling the basements of all three buildings). You haven't noted any "mundane occurrences" that account for the numerous observed characteristics of controlled demolition of the buildings quoted in #145 from the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, a group that consists of 2500 such professionals.

You haven't been able to provide a single "mundane occurrence" of a stable structure in which the smaller upper portion can fall upon and crush the larger and stronger lower portion, then crush itself, and do so without the upper portion decelerating upon impacting the lower portion.

Engineer Jonathan Cole has provided a couple of examples of "mundane occurrences" that demonstrate that such crush-down/crush-up does not happen:


Just one example demonstrating the physical possibility of a structure crushing itself down then crushing up, at near-free-fall speed without the upper block decelerating upon impact, will be sufficient for me.

Fly ash is not held to such a high standard that it cannot contain an iron microsphere measured in nanometers
Once again, the billions of iron microspheres in the WTC cannot possibly be fly ash. That is precisely why RJ Lee Group note the presence of "spherical fly ash" and the iron-rich microspheres that both RJ Lee and USGS proposed as the signature of the WTC dust.

If there is some signature unique to the explosives involved I'm conspiracy theories that cannot be easily explained away...then bring it to the table.
The Harrit et al. paper is linked to in the OP. These scientists discovered red/gray chips of nanothermitic material that exhibit an exotherm narrower and more energetic than reference super-thermite. Either refute the conclusions of that study, or show that your religion allows you to accept those findings.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Prove whatever it is you are claiming. The Wikipedia obviously didn't make any claim about unreacted nanothermite being part of any building. A wastebasket fire would turn buildings into bombs.
Nut'un, Wirey?

You probably don't understand how crazy your claim is. It's not just false; it's lunacy. Apparently you only have religion, and are ignorant of the simplest facts relating to building.

Nanothermite did not exist when the WTC buildings were built.

Neither nanothermite nor ordinary thermite used in welding is used for welding steel in buildings. The National Fire Protection Association 921 Guide, Sections 18.3.2 and 19.2.4, prescribes that whenever there is “high-order damage” to a building or evidence of “exceedingly hot fires,” “exotic accelerants” such as thermite should be tested for. This would certainly be a useless instruction if all buildings contained pounds upon pounds of unreacted nanothermite.

Neither nanothermite nor ordinary thermite used in welding leaves a residue of red/gray chips of unreacted nanothermite. If the use of thermite for welding left any residue of unreacted thermite, it would be very dangerous for anyone to be around, especially an unsuspecting public in a high-trafficked building.

You really should try to question your beliefs. Challenge yourself.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
What “burning gases” are you talking about? What is the evidence of such “burning gases” in the WTC buildings that were hot enough to melt steel and molybdenum? Cite your sources. No such gases that burn at such temperatures are noted here: http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html

Extremely hot fires cause glass to shatter--such as has been seen in a number of burning high-rise buildings. No such shattering glass occurred in the WTC fires. Why not?

An estimate on the basis of the weight percentage that the iron microspheres constituted of the dust, according to RJ Lee Group.

(1) I haven't spoken of any conspiracy on this thread. This thread is about the evidence. If you reject all conspiracy theories concerning the events of 9/11, then you reject the official government story, which is a conspiracy theory (but one that does not account for the evidence).

(2) You haven't noted any "mundane occurrences" that account for (a) the red/gray chips of unreacted nanothermite; (b) the billions of iron-rich microspheres in the dust; or (c) the other evidence of temperatures much higher than hydrocarbon fires burn (e.g., molten steel dripping from the South Tower; molten steel filling the basements of all three buildings). You haven't noted any "mundane occurrences" that account for the numerous observed characteristics of controlled demolition of the buildings quoted in #145 from the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, a group that consists of 2500 such professionals.

You haven't been able to provide a single "mundane occurrence" of a stable structure in which the smaller upper portion can fall upon and crush the larger and stronger lower portion, then crush itself, and do so without the upper portion decelerating upon impacting the lower portion.

Engineer Jonathan Cole has provided a couple of examples of "mundane occurrences" that demonstrate that such crush-down/crush-up does not happen:


Just one example demonstrating the physical possibility of a structure crushing itself down then crushing up, at near-free-fall speed without the upper block decelerating upon impact, will be sufficient for me.

Once again, the billions of iron microspheres in the WTC cannot possibly be fly ash. That is precisely why RJ Lee Group note the presence of "spherical fly ash" and the iron-rich microspheres that both RJ Lee and USGS proposed as the signature of the WTC dust.

The Harrit et al. paper is linked to in the OP. These scientists discovered red/gray chips of nanothermitic material that exhibit an exotherm narrower and more energetic than reference super-thermite. Either refute the conclusions of that study, or show that your religion allows you to accept those findings.
Lol, overstating your conclusions? When you started this thread I don't remember you showing that nanothermite was found in the red chips....perhaps read your op. The gases are discussed in the link and quote I provided when I first entered this thread, that addressed one specific facet of the 9-11 mole hill you are trying to make into a mountain. You are now diversifying your claims to discuss every aspect about this issue. You asked about the iron microspheres, I answered. I think the checkmate is pretty obvious here. Does that mean that there is no conspiracy? No. Who knows, you might be right in the end. But as far as the iron spheres are concerned, we can safely conclude that there is insufficient evidence to rule out expected and normal occurrences consistent with the official story.

Cheers.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Lol, overstating your conclusions? When you started this thread I don't remember you showing that nanothermite was found in the red chips....perhaps read your op.
What do think the following from the OP says, especially the last sentence that I've now put in red?

The following is from the Conclusions section of the Harrit et al. paper:

We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in significant numbers in dust associated with the World Trade Center destruction. We have applied SEM/XEDS and other methods to characterize the small- scale structure and chemical signature of these chips, especially of their red component. The red material is most interesting and has the following characteristics:

1. It is composed of aluminum, iron, oxygen, silicon and carbon. Lesser amounts of other potentially reactive elements are sometimes present, such as potassium, sulfur, lead, barium and copper.

2. The primary elements (Al, Fe, O, Si, C) are typically all present in particles at the scale of tens to hundreds of nanometers, and detailed XEDS mapping shows intimate mixing.

3. On treatment with methyl ethyl ketone solvent, some segregation of components occurred. Elemental aluminum became sufficiently concentrated to be clearly identified in the pre-ignition material.

4. Iron oxide appears in faceted grains roughly 100 nm across whereas the aluminum appears in thin platelike structures. The small size of the iron oxide particles qualifies the material to be characterized as nanothermite or super-thermite.

5. Analysis shows that iron and oxygen are present in a ratio consistent with Fe2O3. The red material in all four WTC dust samples was similar in this way. Iron oxide was found in the pre-ignition material whereas elemental iron was not.

6. From the presence of elemental aluminum and iron oxide in the red material, we conclude that it contains the ingredients of thermite.

7. As measured using DSC, the material ignites and reacts vigorously at a temperature of approximately 430 °C, with a rather narrow exotherm, matching fairly closely an independent observation on a known super-thermite sample. The low temperature of ignition and the presence of iron oxide grains less than 120 nm show that the material is not conventional thermite (which ignites at temperatures above 900 °C) but very likely a form of super-thermite.

8. After igniting several red/gray chips in a DSC run to 700 °C, we found numerous iron-rich spheres and spheroids in the residue, indicating that a very high temperature reaction had occurred, since the iron-rich product clearly must have been molten to form these shapes. In several spheres, elemental iron was verified since the iron content significantly exceeded the oxygen content. We conclude that a high-temperature reduction-oxidation reaction has occurred in the heated chips, namely, the thermite reaction.

9. The spheroids produced by the DSC tests and by the flame test have an XEDS signature (Al, Fe, O, Si, C) which is depleted in carbon and aluminum relative to the original red material. This chemical signature strikingly matches the chemical signature of the spheroids produced by igniting commercial thermite, and also matches the signatures of many of the microspheres found in the WTC dust [5].

10. The carbon content of the red material indicates that an organic substance is present. This would be expected for super-thermite formulations in order to produce high gas pressures upon ignition and thus make them explosive. The nature of the organic material in these chips merits further exploration. We note that it is likely also an energetic material, in that the total energy release sometimes observed in DSC tests exceeds the theoretical maximum energy of the classic thermite reaction.

Based on these observations, we conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material.

http://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOCPJ/TOCPJ-2-7.pdf

How could it be any clearer?

The gases are discussed in the link and quote I provided when I first entered this thread
But you can't name these gases or provide or quote from the link?

No scientist or organization that has even vaguely investigated the WTC fires has claimed that the fires were hot enough to melt steel. “NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).” http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_faqs_082006.cfm

Explain why NIST (et al.) go this about the upper layer air temperatures so wrong.

And you still haven't noted any "mundane occurrences" that account for the numerous observed characteristics of controlled demolition of the buildings quoted in #145 from the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, a group that consists of 2500 such professionals.

And you haven't been able to provide an example of a single "mundane occurrence" of a stable structure in which the smaller upper portion can fall upon and crush the larger and stronger lower portion, then crush itself, and do so without the upper portion decelerating upon impacting the lower portion.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
What do think the following from the OP says, especially the last sentence that I've now put in red?

The following is from the Conclusions section of the Harrit et al. paper:

We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in significant numbers in dust associated with the World Trade Center destruction. We have applied SEM/XEDS and other methods to characterize the small- scale structure and chemical signature of these chips, especially of their red component. The red material is most interesting and has the following characteristics:

1. It is composed of aluminum, iron, oxygen, silicon and carbon. Lesser amounts of other potentially reactive elements are sometimes present, such as potassium, sulfur, lead, barium and copper.

2. The primary elements (Al, Fe, O, Si, C) are typically all present in particles at the scale of tens to hundreds of nanometers, and detailed XEDS mapping shows intimate mixing.

3. On treatment with methyl ethyl ketone solvent, some segregation of components occurred. Elemental aluminum became sufficiently concentrated to be clearly identified in the pre-ignition material.

4. Iron oxide appears in faceted grains roughly 100 nm across whereas the aluminum appears in thin platelike structures. The small size of the iron oxide particles qualifies the material to be characterized as nanothermite or super-thermite.

5. Analysis shows that iron and oxygen are present in a ratio consistent with Fe2O3. The red material in all four WTC dust samples was similar in this way. Iron oxide was found in the pre-ignition material whereas elemental iron was not.

6. From the presence of elemental aluminum and iron oxide in the red material, we conclude that it contains the ingredients of thermite.

7. As measured using DSC, the material ignites and reacts vigorously at a temperature of approximately 430 °C, with a rather narrow exotherm, matching fairly closely an independent observation on a known super-thermite sample. The low temperature of ignition and the presence of iron oxide grains less than 120 nm show that the material is not conventional thermite (which ignites at temperatures above 900 °C) but very likely a form of super-thermite.

8. After igniting several red/gray chips in a DSC run to 700 °C, we found numerous iron-rich spheres and spheroids in the residue, indicating that a very high temperature reaction had occurred, since the iron-rich product clearly must have been molten to form these shapes. In several spheres, elemental iron was verified since the iron content significantly exceeded the oxygen content. We conclude that a high-temperature reduction-oxidation reaction has occurred in the heated chips, namely, the thermite reaction.

9. The spheroids produced by the DSC tests and by the flame test have an XEDS signature (Al, Fe, O, Si, C) which is depleted in carbon and aluminum relative to the original red material. This chemical signature strikingly matches the chemical signature of the spheroids produced by igniting commercial thermite, and also matches the signatures of many of the microspheres found in the WTC dust [5].

10. The carbon content of the red material indicates that an organic substance is present. This would be expected for super-thermite formulations in order to produce high gas pressures upon ignition and thus make them explosive. The nature of the organic material in these chips merits further exploration. We note that it is likely also an energetic material, in that the total energy release sometimes observed in DSC tests exceeds the theoretical maximum energy of the classic thermite reaction.

Based on these observations, we conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material.

http://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOCPJ/TOCPJ-2-7.pdf

How could it be any clearer?

But you can't name these gases or provide or quote from the link?

No scientist or organization that has even vaguely investigated the WTC fires has claimed that the fires were hot enough to melt steel. “NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).” http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_faqs_082006.cfm

Explain why NIST (et al.) go this about the upper layer air temperatures so wrong.

And you still haven't noted any "mundane occurrences" that account for the numerous observed characteristics of controlled demolition of the buildings quoted in #145 from the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, a group that consists of 2500 such professionals.

And you haven't been able to provide an example of a single "mundane occurrence" of a stable structure in which the smaller upper portion can fall upon and crush the larger and stronger lower portion, then crush itself, and do so without the upper portion decelerating upon impacting the lower portion.
Sounds like a non-sequitur to be honest. Better read as "we found stuff consistent with fly ash, then we found a couple things that could be consistent with fly ash but are not necessarily consistent with fly ash, so....bomb." as I have said: you did not show anything was thermite or nanothermite or anything of the like.

No, I quoted the website that melting could have occurred through sheer friction or may appear to have melted and actually have corroded. Go through point by point the various explanations for the iron sphereoids. When you manage to explain away all other possibilities, then we can talk. Until then, all that you posit, lacks substance. Again, I won't say it's untrue, just not very believable.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Better read as "we found stuff consistent with fly ash, then we found a couple things that could be consistent with fly ash but are not necessarily consistent with fly ash, so....bomb."
You don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. Fly ash is not consistent with red/gray chips of nanothermitic material that exhibits an exotherm narrower and more energetic than reference nanothermite.

you did not show anything was thermite or nanothermite or anything of the like.
Again, you only speak out of ignorance. The red/gray chips have every feature of nanothermite, including an exotherm that is more "explosive" than reference nanothermite.

I quoted the website that melting could have occurred through sheer friction
Friction of falling steel beams does not melt steel. The yellow-white hot substance pouring out of the South Tower just before its collapse was not friction. The molten steel that filled the basements of all 3 WTC buildings and that dripped from steel beams being excavated was not friction and was not a product of friction

Your understanding of physics is something short of the average middle school student. I'm certain that if it weren't for your religion, you wouldn't be saying such ignorant and absurd stuff, at least not publicly.

So it seems you want to just drop all that about gases burning hot enough to melt steel in the buildings?

And you still haven't noted any "mundane occurrences" that account for the numerous observed characteristics of controlled demolition of the buildings quoted in #145.

And you haven't been able to provide a single example of a "mundane occurrence" of a stable structure in which the smaller upper portion can fall upon and crush the larger and stronger lower portion, then crush itself, and do so without the upper portion decelerating upon impacting the lower portion.

And you still haven't been able to provide a single example of a stable structure such as the 3 WTC buildings in which random and asymmetrical structural damage causes symmetrical collapse.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
You don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. Fly ash is not consistent with red/gray chips of nanothermitic material that exhibits an exotherm narrower and more energetic than reference nanothermite.

Again, you only speak out of ignorance. The red/gray chips have every feature of nanothermite, including an exotherm that is more "explosive" than reference nanothermite.

Friction of falling steel beams does not melt steel. The yellow-white hot substance pouring out of the South Tower just before its collapse was not friction. The molten steel that filled the basements of all 3 WTC buildings and that dripped from steel beams being excavated was not friction and was not a product of friction

Your understanding of physics is something short of the average middle school student. I'm certain that if it weren't for your religion, you wouldn't be saying such ignorant and absurd stuff, at least not publicly.

So it seems you want to just drop all that about gases burning hot enough to melt steel in the buildings?

And you still haven't noted any "mundane occurrences" that account for the numerous observed characteristics of controlled demolition of the buildings quoted in #145.

And you haven't been able to provide a single example of a "mundane occurrence" of a stable structure in which the smaller upper portion can fall upon and crush the larger and stronger lower portion, then crush itself, and do so without the upper portion decelerating upon impacting the lower portion.

And you still haven't been able to provide a single example of a stable structure such as the 3 WTC buildings in which random and asymmetrical structural damage causes symmetrical collapse.
You seem to want to attack my understanding, but I remind you...you have shown nothing but one reports bad logic which you absurdly grasp as though it was your only chance...oh wait it is. Show that it is nanothermite. Argue your claim. I don't have to do any work, your studys spereroids have been accounted for...and to any with a brain, the answer need not be "nanothermite"

You say my religion, yet it is you holding to improbable claims in the face of other rational explanations. For now, we cn label you debunked. If you come up with something better start another thread. This thread deals with the rj Lee paper or whatever you originally cited. That has been handled.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
you have shown nothing but one reports bad logic
Whatever your gibberish here is supposed to mean, prove it.

Show that it is nanothermite. Argue your claim.
How long do you predict it will take you to grasp the following simple fact? It is from the enumerated findings of the characteristics of the red material that Harrit et al. “conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips . . . is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material.”

We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in significant numbers in dust associated with the World Trade Center destruction. We have applied SEM/XEDS and other methods to characterize the small- scale structure and chemical signature of these chips, especially of their red component. The red material is most interesting and has the following characteristics:

1. It is composed of aluminum, iron, oxygen, silicon and carbon. Lesser amounts of other potentially reactive elements are sometimes present, such as potassium, sulfur, lead, barium and copper.

2. The primary elements (Al, Fe, O, Si, C) are typically all present in particles at the scale of tens to hundreds of nanometers, and detailed XEDS mapping shows intimate mixing.

3. On treatment with methyl ethyl ketone solvent, some segregation of components occurred. Elemental aluminum became sufficiently concentrated to be clearly identified in the pre-ignition material.

4. Iron oxide appears in faceted grains roughly 100 nm across whereas the aluminum appears in thin platelike structures. The small size of the iron oxide particles qualifies the material to be characterized as nanothermite or super-thermite.

5. Analysis shows that iron and oxygen are present in a ratio consistent with Fe2O3. The red material in all four WTC dust samples was similar in this way. Iron oxide was found in the pre-ignition material whereas elemental iron was not.

6. From the presence of elemental aluminum and iron oxide in the red material, we conclude that it contains the ingredients of thermite.

7. As measured using DSC, the material ignites and reacts vigorously at a temperature of approximately 430 °C, with a rather narrow exotherm, matching fairly closely an independent observation on a known super-thermite sample. The low temperature of ignition and the presence of iron oxide grains less than 120 nm show that the material is not conventional thermite (which ignites at temperatures above 900 °C) but very likely a form of super-thermite.

8. After igniting several red/gray chips in a DSC run to 700 °C, we found numerous iron-rich spheres and spheroids in the residue, indicating that a very high temperature reaction had occurred, since the iron-rich product clearly must have been molten to form these shapes. In several spheres, elemental iron was verified since the iron content significantly exceeded the oxygen content. We conclude that a high-temperature reduction-oxidation reaction has occurred in the heated chips, namely, the thermite reaction.

9. The spheroids produced by the DSC tests and by the flame test have an XEDS signature (Al, Fe, O, Si, C) which is depleted in carbon and aluminum relative to the original red material. This chemical signature strikingly matches the chemical signature of the spheroids produced by igniting commercial thermite, and also matches the signatures of many of the microspheres found in the WTC dust [5].

10. The carbon content of the red material indicates that an organic substance is present. This would be expected for super-thermite formulations in order to produce high gas pressures upon ignition and thus make them explosive. The nature of the organic material in these chips merits further exploration. We note that it is likely also an energetic material, in that the total energy release sometimes observed in DSC tests exceeds the theoretical maximum energy of the classic thermite reaction.

Based on these observations, we conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material.​

http://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOCPJ/TOCPJ-2-7.pdf

your studys spereroids have been accounted for.
That's correct. As Jones et al. noted, the iron-rich microspheres can only have been the product of temperatures hot enough to melt steel, temperatures that are much higher than those produced by hydrocarbon fires.

If you were to read the reports and paper sometime, you would discover that Jones et al., USGS and RJ Lee Group also found fly ash, which has an entirely different elemental composition than the iron-rich microspheres discovered in the dust.

and to any with a brain, the answer need not be "nanothermite"
It's really quite stunning that even at this point, 150+ posts into the thread, you still don't have a clue as to what is being discussed. No one has ever claimed that the iron-rich microspheres are nanothermite.

But you do know what your religion says. It's only the facts and logic that you are unacquainted with.

it is you holding to improbable claims
Go right ahead and quote anything I've said and show that it is "improbable".

So, again, apparently you want to drop all that about gases burning hot enough to melt steel in the buildings?

And you still haven't noted any "mundane occurrences" that account for the numerous observed characteristics of controlled demolition of the buildings quoted in #145.

And you haven't been able to provide a single example of a "mundane occurrence" of a stable structure in which the smaller upper portion can fall upon and crush the larger and stronger lower portion, then crush itself, and do so without the upper portion decelerating upon impacting the lower portion.

And you still haven't been able to provide a single example of a stable structure such as the 3 WTC buildings in which random and asymmetrical structural damage causes symmetrical collapse.

Right?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Whatever your gibberish here is supposed to mean, prove it.

How long do you predict it will take you to grasp the following simple fact? It is from the enumerated findings of the characteristics of the red material that Harrit et al. “conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips . . . is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material.”

We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in significant numbers in dust associated with the World Trade Center destruction. We have applied SEM/XEDS and other methods to characterize the small- scale structure and chemical signature of these chips, especially of their red component. The red material is most interesting and has the following characteristics:

1. It is composed of aluminum, iron, oxygen, silicon and carbon. Lesser amounts of other potentially reactive elements are sometimes present, such as potassium, sulfur, lead, barium and copper.

2. The primary elements (Al, Fe, O, Si, C) are typically all present in particles at the scale of tens to hundreds of nanometers, and detailed XEDS mapping shows intimate mixing.

3. On treatment with methyl ethyl ketone solvent, some segregation of components occurred. Elemental aluminum became sufficiently concentrated to be clearly identified in the pre-ignition material.

4. Iron oxide appears in faceted grains roughly 100 nm across whereas the aluminum appears in thin platelike structures. The small size of the iron oxide particles qualifies the material to be characterized as nanothermite or super-thermite.

5. Analysis shows that iron and oxygen are present in a ratio consistent with Fe2O3. The red material in all four WTC dust samples was similar in this way. Iron oxide was found in the pre-ignition material whereas elemental iron was not.

6. From the presence of elemental aluminum and iron oxide in the red material, we conclude that it contains the ingredients of thermite.

7. As measured using DSC, the material ignites and reacts vigorously at a temperature of approximately 430 °C, with a rather narrow exotherm, matching fairly closely an independent observation on a known super-thermite sample. The low temperature of ignition and the presence of iron oxide grains less than 120 nm show that the material is not conventional thermite (which ignites at temperatures above 900 °C) but very likely a form of super-thermite.

8. After igniting several red/gray chips in a DSC run to 700 °C, we found numerous iron-rich spheres and spheroids in the residue, indicating that a very high temperature reaction had occurred, since the iron-rich product clearly must have been molten to form these shapes. In several spheres, elemental iron was verified since the iron content significantly exceeded the oxygen content. We conclude that a high-temperature reduction-oxidation reaction has occurred in the heated chips, namely, the thermite reaction.

9. The spheroids produced by the DSC tests and by the flame test have an XEDS signature (Al, Fe, O, Si, C) which is depleted in carbon and aluminum relative to the original red material. This chemical signature strikingly matches the chemical signature of the spheroids produced by igniting commercial thermite, and also matches the signatures of many of the microspheres found in the WTC dust [5].

10. The carbon content of the red material indicates that an organic substance is present. This would be expected for super-thermite formulations in order to produce high gas pressures upon ignition and thus make them explosive. The nature of the organic material in these chips merits further exploration. We note that it is likely also an energetic material, in that the total energy release sometimes observed in DSC tests exceeds the theoretical maximum energy of the classic thermite reaction.

Based on these observations, we conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material.​

http://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOCPJ/TOCPJ-2-7.pdf

That's correct. As Jones et al. noted, the iron-rich microspheres can only have been the product of temperatures hot enough to melt steel, temperatures that are much higher than those produced by hydrocarbon fires.

If you were to read the reports and paper sometime, you would discover that Jones et al., USGS and RJ Lee Group also found fly ash, which has an entirely different elemental composition than the iron-rich microspheres discovered in the dust.

It's really quite stunning that even at this point, 150+ posts into the thread, you still don't have a clue as to what is being discussed. No one has ever claimed that the iron-rich microspheres are nanothermite.

But you do know what your religion says. It's only the facts and logic that you are unacquainted with.

Go right ahead and quote anything I've said and show that it is "improbable".

So, again, apparently you want to drop all that about gases burning hot enough to melt steel in the buildings?

And you still haven't noted any "mundane occurrences" that account for the numerous observed characteristics of controlled demolition of the buildings quoted in #145.

And you haven't been able to provide a single example of a "mundane occurrence" of a stable structure in which the smaller upper portion can fall upon and crush the larger and stronger lower portion, then crush itself, and do so without the upper portion decelerating upon impacting the lower portion.

And you still haven't been able to provide a single example of a stable structure such as the 3 WTC buildings in which random and asymmetrical structural damage causes symmetrical collapse.

Right?
I am not dealing with the collapse, but see the website I quoted earlier as it does.

And as far as the iron rich sphereroids, well my quote offers several sources.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And as far as the iron rich sphereroids, well my quote offers several sources.
What quote? Quote it again.

You don't have a source that demonstrates that friction between falling pieces of steel reaches temperatures to melt steel and produce iron microspheres, do you? We just have to have faith in your religion in order to hold that ignorant belief, right?

As I've noted several times already, the billions of iron-rich microspheres in the WTC dust prove that temperatures in the WTC buildings were hot enough to melt steel, temperatures that are far higher than those produced by ordinary open-air hydrocarbon fires. And, of course, the pools of molten steel that filled the basements of the 3 buildings are proof of great quantities of such molten steel. You don't have any "theory" that accounts for such quantities of molten steel, or for the yellow-white hot molten metal dripping from the South Tower just minutes before it exploded, do you?

I am not dealing with the collapse, but see the website I quoted earlier as it does.
What website? You don't know of any website that demonstrates that it is physically possible for asymmetrical structural damage to a building to cause it to collapse symmetrically, do you?

You don't know of any website that demonstrates that the crush-down/crush-up phenomena suggested by NIST is physically possible, do you?

Engineer Jonathan Cole demonstrates that that the crush-down/crush-up phenomenon does not happen (exactly as we can deduce from Newton's laws):


And you haven't identified any error in the methodologies or conclusions of the Harrit et al. paper, which finds that "the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material." Right?

I realize that your religion forbids you to acknowledge any of these facts, but if you could step outside of your religious beliefs for just a minute and address these facts head-on, intelligently and honestly, I think everyone, including you, would be a lot clearer on the topic.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
With the damage to one side (or possibly also part of the adjoining side) of WTC 7, something like this should have happened, if it had collapsed due to the damage in the first-time-ever occurrence of thermal expansion snapping dozens of bolts simultaneously:


Of course, it is utter nonsense that a historically unique phenomenon occurred in which bolts supposedly snapping on a single column caused WTC 7 to collapse into its footprint, falling at free-fall speed for more than 100 feet (meaning all the columns of 8 floors suddenly provided zero resistance).
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
What quote? Quote it again.

You don't have a source that demonstrates that friction between falling pieces of steel reaches temperatures to melt steel and produce iron microspheres, do you? We just have to have faith in your religion in order to hold that ignorant belief, right?

As I've noted several times already, the billions of iron-rich microspheres in the WTC dust prove that temperatures in the WTC buildings were hot enough to melt steel, temperatures that are far higher than those produced by ordinary open-air hydrocarbon fires. And, of course, the pools of molten steel that filled the basements of the 3 buildings are proof of great quantities of such molten steel. You don't have any "theory" that accounts for such quantities of molten steel, or for the yellow-white hot molten metal dripping from the South Tower just minutes before it exploded, do you?

What website? You don't know of any website that demonstrates that it is physically possible for asymmetrical structural damage to a building to cause it to collapse symmetrically, do you?

You don't know of any website that demonstrates that the crush-down/crush-up phenomena suggested by NIST is physically possible, do you?

Engineer Jonathan Cole demonstrates that that the crush-down/crush-up phenomenon does not happen (exactly as we can deduce from Newton's laws):


And you haven't identified any error in the methodologies or conclusions of the Harrit et al. paper, which finds that "the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material." Right?

I realize that your religion forbids you to acknowledge any of these facts, but if you could step outside of your religious beliefs for just a minute and address these facts head-on, intelligently and honestly, I think everyone, including you, would be a lot clearer on the topic.
http://mobile.dudamobile.com/site/debunking911?url=http://www.debunking911.com/&utm_referrer=#2714

Cheers
 
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