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Adam = all Men's nature becomes sinful; Jesus =/= all Men become sinless?

cablescavenger

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
Heathen Hammer said:
This question arose after I viewed a comment from a Christian friend on another venue.

Adam's action definitively changed the very nature of all humans. Even though all subsequent people did not commit the action he did, we were nonetheless infused, in essence, with sin. If the tale is taken to its logical conclusion we can view it as an actual physical change to reality, wherein mankind's nature became inherently sinful.

Then, Jesus arrives. And although some dogmatists claim that his sacrifice at the end, took away all sin, or forgives all sins, or however one wants to frame it - the appearance of this second [in the view of some who saw Adam as initially being created perfect] perfect being on Earth does NOT change the inherent nature of Man. In this case it becomes choice; or perhaps in some views, divine grace/choice.

It is positional, and not inherent. Subsequent humans are not then born sinless once again. Original Sin stains every one, up to and through Jesus' appearance. Why did this condition not change back to the way God first created Man?

Why is it that the coming of Jesus did not undo the error of Adam? Original Sin is not a choice by any means; why is forgiveness for that sin a choice? Why did Jesus' actions not cleanse us wholly from Adam's error?
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And you believe this?
 
Heathen Hammer

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
I believe these are the implications of that system, yes.

I do not adhere to that faith, though, no; I'm a Heathen.
 
cablescavenger

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
rusra02 said:
A person born with a disease inherited from his parents can choose to receive an available cure for the illness, or not. Adam had the freedom to choose whether to obey God or not, and he choose disobedience. God would have been perfectly justified in executing Adam before he had children. The fact that God allowed the human race to exist at all shows God's love and mercy extended to Adam's offspring. Further, motivated by love, God made it possible for the 'world' of mankind to regain what Adam lost. (John 3:16) God will grant that free gift, not as something mandatory (you'll get everlasting life whether you like it or not!") but as something to be accepted gratefully and happily by those suffering from the terminal illness Adam passed to us.
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I think I choose death, eternal life following God would be enough to send me over the edge anyway.
 
J

James Humphreys

Member
Heathen Hammer said:
Don't get ahead of yourself now; show the flaw.


So, you agree then that Adam was created to be doomed. That he would disobey was not a 'maybe' to God. it was a given.

That's where the injustice begins. And it hasn't ended. Yet, according to you. But 'yet' is too late.

Saying 'he brought it' is transferring the responsibility downstream one step. Who created him to bring it?
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No, God did not know, predestine or desire the fall of Adam and Eve. He knew of the possibility, but not the outcome, because it depended on human choice. Adam and Eve were created sinless, not perfect, and I think those terms are often confused. Although the Eden story on face value has been interpreted to mean that Adam and Eve were created full grown, I believe they had to start out as infants, like anyone else. They had a process of maturation to go through. Perfection, was their goal, meaning perfection of their capacity to love God and each other, when they reached both physical and spiritual maturity. It is equivalent to "be fruitful" in Genesis 1:28.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a symbol of Eve and the fruit of the tree is a symbol of her sexual love. The prohibition on Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit was necessary only until they reached maturity and perfection. Then Eve would have become a Tree of Good. The prohibition on eating was necessary during their immaturity because the power of misdirected love could sever their relationship to God during their growing period. Eve became the Tree of the Knowledge of Evil, by succumbing to the temptation from another spiritual being, jealous of their future position as God's son and daughter. Through the fall, the premature partaking of sexual love, this spiritual being could control Adam and Eve and their descendants through the power of misdirected love.
 
not nom

not nom

Well-Known Member
James Humphreys said:
No, God did not know, predestine or desire the fall of Adam and Eve. He knew of the possibility, but not the outcome, because it depended on human choice.
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that means god doesn't know anything of history.. it depends on human choices after all.

I believe they had to start out as infants, like anyone else.
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human babies without human adults around die, they don't even bother growing up. human babies with non-human adults around won't know they're human. (sounds like fun)

so, uhm. ^^
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
sandy whitelinger said:
You mean staggering in the concept that God, ahead of time, knew man would bring death upon himself and need to be cleansed of his sin and be regenerated in order to live in eternity with God. Armed with that forknowledge He allowed His Son to be made in the image of sinful man and die on a cross as a perfect sacrifice for all of mankind to allow any who would believe in Him to gain life eternal in a sinless state. I agree, it is quite staggering.
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why not offer jesus' atonement instead of a flood?
 
Heathen Hammer

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
James Humphreys said:
No, God did not know, predestine or desire the fall of Adam and Eve. He knew of the possibility, but not the outcome, because it depended on human choice. Adam and Eve were created sinless, not perfect, and I think those terms are often confused. Although the Eden story on face value has been interpreted to mean that Adam and Eve were created full grown, I believe they had to start out as infants, like anyone else. They had a process of maturation to go through. Perfection, was their goal, meaning perfection of their capacity to love God and each other, when they reached both physical and spiritual maturity. It is equivalent to "be fruitful" in Genesis 1:28.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a symbol of Eve and the fruit of the tree is a symbol of her sexual love. The prohibition on Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit was necessary only until they reached maturity and perfection. Then Eve would have become a Tree of Good. The prohibition on eating was necessary during their immaturity because the power of misdirected love could sever their relationship to God during their growing period. Eve became the Tree of the Knowledge of Evil, by succumbing to the temptation from another spiritual being, jealous of their future position as God's son and daughter. Through the fall, the premature partaking of sexual love, this spiritual being could control Adam and Eve and their descendants through the power of misdirected love.
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I appreciate your input, but your assertions are so different from mainstream belief I am not sure my comments are warranted.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Heathen Hammer said:
Don't get ahead of yourself now; show the flaw.


So, you agree then that Adam was created to be doomed. That he would disobey was not a 'maybe' to God. it was a given.

That's where the injustice begins. And it hasn't ended. Yet, according to you. But 'yet' is too late.

Saying 'he brought it' is transferring the responsibility downstream one step. Who created him to bring it?
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Adam was created with a choice. And Adam was not doomed, he died. I believe the Bible shows that he was saved.
 
Heathen Hammer

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
sandy whitelinger said:
Adam was created with a choice. And Adam was not doomed, he died. I believe the Bible shows that he was saved.
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Ah, that old buggaboo 'choice' which is brought out any time one wants to show the choice was wrong and the chooser needed/deserved to suffer.

Technically speaking the only 'choice' Adam had was an uninformed choice. And we all agree that morally such a thing is wrong when one is then punished for it.

He was doomed because God KNEW WHAT 'CHOICE' HE WOULD MAKE. He was DOOMED to make the WRONG 'CHOICE', and God's knowledge cannot be wrong. So, you are incorrect, my dear.

And I think you folks need to make up your mind what ultimately happened to Adam after he died. I've heard at least 3 different versions of his fate, and none of them. in fact no mention at all, is in the scripture. So it's all bald speculation.
 
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