Adam and Eve, and the serpent

[sincerly]

No, he means a proper understanding of the texts.

The texts, in context, doesn't say what he proposes.

 

[sojourner]

sincerly said: ↑
Scripturally, they do not.



In reality, and Scripturally, there isn't anything on this earth which is older than "In the beginning". And scripturally all of mankind spread out from the tower of Babel.

You're confusing story elements with historical elements. Factually -- historically, the Babylonian/Sumerian myths are chronologically older than the creation myths. IOW, since the parallels are so striking, it makes sense that the biblical writers borrowed the earlier Sumerian accounts.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
sincerly said: ↑
Scripturally, they do not.

In reality, and Scripturally, there isn't anything on this earth which is older than "In the beginning". And scripturally all of mankind spread out from the tower of Babel.
Click to expand...

You're confusing story elements with historical elements. Factually -- historically, the Babylonian/Sumerian myths are chronologically older than the creation myths. IOW, since the parallels are so striking, it makes sense that the biblical writers borrowed the earlier Sumerian accounts.

"Story elements"? Yes, the historical narrative of How all things came to be is factual---just as it is recorded in Genesis.
You are trying to put the cart before the horse and the horse can not pull it.
It was the Babylonians/Sumerians who did the "borrowing" and then the "scholars" did the "confusing"---because they wanted to believe the "myth" they chose to label it.

 

[sojourner]

sincerly said: ↑
sincerly said: ↑
Scripturally, they do not.

In reality, and Scripturally, there isn't anything on this earth which is older than "In the beginning". And scripturally all of mankind spread out from the tower of Babel.
Click to expand...



"Story elements"? Yes, the historical narrative of How all things came to be is factual---just as it is recorded in Genesis.
You are trying to put the cart before the horse and the horse can not pull it.
It was the Babylonians/Sumerians who did the "borrowing" and then the "scholars" did the "confusing"---because they wanted to believe the "myth" they chose to label it.

K. Prove it. You can't, because it just ain't so. All the evidence is on my side of the argument.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
sincerly said: ↑
sincerly said: ↑
Scripturally, they do not.

In reality, and Scripturally, there isn't anything on this earth which is older than "In the beginning". And scripturally all of mankind spread out from the tower of Babel.
Click to expand...

"Story elements"? Yes, the historical narrative of How all things came to be is factual---just as it is recorded in Genesis.
You are trying to put the cart before the horse and the horse can not pull it.
It was the Babylonians/Sumerians who did the "borrowing" and then the "scholars" did the "confusing"---because they wanted to believe the "myth" they chose to label it.
Click to expand...

K. Prove it. You can't, because it just ain't so. All the evidence is on my side of the argument.

The Scriptures are true. Your "evidence"/say so is of the same magnitude as was the serpent to Eve.

 

[sojourner]

The Scriptures are true. Your "evidence"/say so is of the same magnitude as was the serpent to Eve.

K. Prove it. You can't. This is nothing more than unfounded opinion.

 

[pearl]

In reality, and Scripturally, there isn't anything on this earth which is older than "In the beginning".

We wouldn't have this discussion, or any debate if instead of 'in the beginning' there was 'once upon a time'.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

As you know, I am Pelagian, so I deny the existence of the original sin. I even deny the existence of Adam and Eve, who are fictional characters. We humans are the result of evolution, as scientists say (thank God there is science)

But, if we analyze the tale of Adam and Eve's fall, we find out something interesting. The Bible says: Eve ate the fruit and then she gave it to Adam, who ate it too. In the Biblical allegorical system, "eating the fruit" means "to have sex"- There is a passage in which the Bible says that the adulteress ate the fruit.

so...let's be honest: the mankind's fall is about sex. God didn't want Adam and Eve to breed; that's why He punished them and said to Eve: you will suffer labor pains.

Let me see if I fully understand this concept of yours, first Eve masturbated then convinced Adam to join in? I'm also puzzled as to how Adam and Eve were to fulfill the commandment given to them previously to be fruitful and multiply without committing this sin of eating the fruit, I'm not aware that God commands one to obey a commandment by committing a sin.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

As you know, I am Pelagian, so I deny the existence of the original sin. I even deny the existence of Adam and Eve, who are fictional characters. We humans are the result of evolution, as scientists say (thank God there is science)

But, if we analyze the tale of Adam and Eve's fall, we find out something interesting. The Bible says: Eve ate the fruit and then she gave it to Adam, who ate it too. In the Biblical allegorical system, "eating the fruit" means "to have sex"- There is a passage in which the Bible says that the adulteress ate the fruit.

so...let's be honest: the mankind's fall is about sex. God didn't want Adam and Eve to breed; that's why He punished them and said to Eve: you will suffer labor pains.

And you'd deny the existence of the smell of your comode's deposit also.

 

[Unification]

As you know, I am Pelagian, so I deny the existence of the original sin. I even deny the existence of Adam and Eve, who are fictional characters. We humans are the result of evolution, as scientists say (thank God there is science)

But, if we analyze the tale of Adam and Eve's fall, we find out something interesting. The Bible says: Eve ate the fruit and then she gave it to Adam, who ate it too. In the Biblical allegorical system, "eating the fruit" means "to have sex"- There is a passage in which the Bible says that the adulteress ate the fruit.

so...let's be honest: the mankind's fall is about sex. God didn't want Adam and Eve to breed; that's why He punished them and said to Eve: you will suffer labor pains.

Adam is the Spirit and Eve is the human body. The serpent is the mind (the craftiest of God's creation.) the Lord is the Spirit in every man. The body(wife) should always be in subjection to the husband(Spirit). We are to be led by the Spirit. The body (flesh) was tempted by the mind (serpent). The Father, already knowing mankind would chose knowledge of good and evil, had already sent his son (the Lamb) slain from the foundation of the world to forgive every man of sin. Nothing could be created without this sacrifice. The Fathers purity would consume any sin the moment it happened. The son is the light(Spirit) in every individual ever born. He is the truth(Spirit) and the life(blood) in every individual. Adam and Eve (one individual) discovered the knowledge of good and evil, they became sin conscious.... Now the journey for the life began. We must be made poor, low, humble.... Destroy the Satan(ego) within. . And that's to forget all of the man doctrine by man's carnal brilliant mind and imaginations of God. . What we think we know, we don't. The Lord is our only teacher and he lives within us. Meditate on the Lord. He's our only teacher. There is only one truth, and yet all that is out there amongst "religion" is divide. Trust in the Lord, he will conquer all of his enemies(sin) within you and cleanse and wash you by his word.... Not a book but his living word speakig to one within. Not destroy literal human beings. That is metaphorical. The coming of the Lord is within our hearts. Those hoping for a physical conquering Lord to magically wisk them away and destroy human beings is an Anti-Christ in itself. Stop looking OUT. Look INSIDE. The kingdom is within you. Entire scripture is about the transformation of the human body to carry out the Lord's will. Peace be with you all.

 

[red44243]

Red, what you are not taking in consideration is Adam and Eve were NOT created as illiterate children. They were created with knowledge and understanding. Yes, they understood what GOD had said and agreed that it was true. And Yes, That adversary(Satan) wasn't sent, but allowed to tempt them to disobey as he had done. (Job/Satan)

Were your children taught right from wrong actions--from infancy?



Yes, All are tested to see where one's "freedom of choice" resides. In pleasing the Creator GOD or self. It was in the in the "lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" that Satan/Lucifer fell and by which Adam and Eve followed his lead in the passing along that propensity to their progeny.
We see the results of man's inhumanity to man today. However, it was manifested with the first born against his brother and defiance against GOD.



Adam and Eve had already sinned and several thousand years had passed before Job and "friends" arrived in the pages of the scriptures.

I am not trying to argue here...only attempting to learn. You say that they were created with knowledge and understanding and that they understood and agreed that it was true. In describing the tree of knowledge of good and evil, could we agree this would include but not be limited to the knowledge of right and wrong or maybe the knowledge to obey or disobey?? How could Adam and Eve be considered competent to be held liable for doing good or evil, doing right or wrong, obeying or disobeying, when the concept of one being different from the other was purposely held from them. They were not told that they would be disobeying God if they ate the fruit, they were told they would die. They were basically told that the fruit was poison. So don't eat the poison fruit. Literally untrue but all truth as a metaphor. This kept them from the tree until the serpent told them that the fruit wasn't poison, which literally was the truth but a huge lie figuratively speaking because death was loosened upon mankind from doing so.

Now the example I used earlier with toys and my own children and you asked if my children were taught right and wrong, well that whole situation has NOTHING to do with right and wrong, at least not on the children's part. As a grown up I have learned that us humans are created (born) with a very very strong sense curiosity. That is why we learn and why we are as intelligent as we are. That curiosity could also be described as an eagerness for knowledge. We learn most of the right things or right way to do things mostly by doing the wrong things first and that eagerness or thirst for knowledge keeps us trying until we find the right way and even then we automatically are trying to improve on that which is called PROGRESS. As a parent I know that by telling them not to play with this and then leaving it right there beside them that I just manipulated their curiosity and when I leave the room that thirst would trump their fear of a time out and they can't help themselves. My point is that due to my knowledge any guilt would be on my shoulders and not theirs because I set them up. Unless you want to consider an eagerness to learn as an evil thing,

The story of Adam and Eve is nothing more than a set up, the way I read it. At least as far as them eating the fruit and also for Eve believing the serpent's word over God's word. There is the first hint of a sin that I see but still at the time she hadn't been taught or had enough experience to know better. Now Adam didn't do that. He saw that Eve ate the fruit, that she really really liked it and he witnessed her not dying. If it didn't kill her and it tasted that good, well he wanted some, too. Myself I believe the whole thing was a set up. Even the tree I believe had nothing to do with any kind of knowledge. It was just a regular old tree with really good fruit used in the set up and the fruit itself gave them no new knowledge at all but that by being manipulated into this small act of disobeying and non belief of God's word, or we could say by being tricked into doing the wrong thing they were set on the path to learn the right way!! Next they thought that being naked was evil but if you believe this also you would have to declare that Paradise before they ate the fruit as evil because they had been running around in perfect paradise naked for some time. If it was evil God would have clothed them from the beginning. My point being if the tree's fruit gave them the knowledge it claimed why did they feel so ashamed for being naked which God did not consider evil or he wouldn't have left them that way for that long and why did they not feel guilty for what they did next which I see as the first sin they could be held accountable for because they had already learned what it was to disobey even though they were tricked into it. They still learned it and even though they were feeling guilty for the wrong thing being naked, they had learned what guilt felt like. Next instead of using this new knowledge to repent and do the right thing, they used it to sin even worse. Eve blamed her sin on the serpent and Adam blamed his on Eve. Neither one took any responsibility themselves. To me that is where they went wrong.

 

[bird]

As you know, I am Pelagian, so I deny the existence of the original sin. I even deny the existence of Adam and Eve, who are fictional characters. We humans are the result of evolution, as scientists say (thank God there is science)

But, if we analyze the tale of Adam and Eve's fall, we find out something interesting. The Bible says: Eve ate the fruit and then she gave it to Adam, who ate it too.

Although you do not believe in original sin, the Bible does say that Eve was in the transgression ("And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." 1 Timothy 2:14) By pointing out that Adam was not deceived, we can see that he is a parable picture of Christ. Christ was sinless but took sin upon himself for his own people's sake, that he came to save. This is pictured in the deep sleep (Gen 2:21) that God causes to come upon Adam, parable words for the judgement death of the cross. The woman Eve is a parable picture of those who belong to Christ (his bride, so to speak), that he came to save and forgive.