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Adulterating Pure Worship

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
No "strawman" as that is what you are, and you persistently post their teachings. Are you into denial? ashamed? :shrug:

I'm not the judge-- God is-- nor do I consider myself to be God's advisor. So, what's your point?

What I do know is this:
Matt.7[1]Judge not, that you be not judged.
[2] For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
[3] Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?


Maybe you should better reflect what Jesus taught on this, eh?
Any congregation of Jesus’ followers needs to be kept clean.
1 Corinthians 5 details this well.
To do this, requires judgement .

We all judge on a personal level.... even you. I’m sure you don’t accept just anyone, as a friend. Some people, I’m positive, you consider “bad association.” 1 Corinthians 15:33.
Is it wrong? No.... you’re just protecting yourself & family.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Any congregation of Jesus’ followers needs to be kept clean.
1 Corinthians 5 details this well.
To do this, requires judgement .
That role was assigned to the apostles who then passed it down to their appointees per the Gospel. This process is called "apostolic succession", thus most of us don't have that role. However, I do fully agree that we have to be careful whom we "hang around" with.

We all judge on a personal level.... even you. I’m sure you don’t accept just anyone, as a friend. Some people, I’m positive, you consider “bad association.” 1 Corinthians 15:33.
Is it wrong? No.... you’re just protecting yourself & family.
That is not what you were referring to in your questioning on God's judgement relating to fornication. That's His decision, thus not yours nor mine.

On top of that, there's also the issue of "forgiveness", which ultimately is also one of God's roles.
 

Irate State

Äkta människor
President George W. Bush defied God (and his warning in Revelation not to attack Babylon), and that put the world in the end times (all life will be destroyed). A million innocent Iraqis murdered, some American soldiers now in the Wounded Warrior Program, and there was a torture camp in Guantanamo. Like his father, the dragon, W. Bush stirred a cauldron of eye of newt and summoned demons with Latin hexes at Skull and Bones meetings at Yale.

I just discovered this forum a couple of weeks ago, and I'm having a hard time telling if a comment is from someone doing a bit or if it's sarcasm.
Help.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
There have been a number of threads recently on Christmas and its pagan origins. There is plenty of information in secular history, in any Encyclopedia, in the threads on this website even, about the unbiblical practices and pagan traditions that became known as Christmas.

Most Christians from the churches of Christendom these days are not ignorant of the pagan roots of Christmas, but they excuse them away. "It's the thought that counts." "It's a family tradition." "I don't think God cares about the pagan origins," and we go on and on with their excuses to why it is okay to celebrate a pagan holiday dressed as something holy to God.

So reasoning from the scriptures, getting the mind of God on things, what does he really think about mixing pagan rites, traditions, and worship with pure worship?

I was studying some of the requirements of offering a sacrifice pleasing to God under the Mosaic law a couple weeks ago, and reasoning on Jehovah's view of holiness might give us an idea of how he views mixing false religion with pure worship.

For example, in Leviticus 7:11, 12 a person whose heart moved him could offer a communion sacrifice to God.

This sacrifice was not a sacrifice for sins or guilt, but rather of thanksgiving. It meant a person had a good conscious and wanted to offer, voluntarily, a sacrifice of thanksgiving to Jehovah God. The one offering the communion sacrifice ate of it along with his family, 'with' Jehovah. Signifying the peaceful relation they had with him.

But were just any sacrifices pleasing to Jehovah? No! Notice what Jehovah said about anyone offering a communion sacrifice that was unclean:

"But any person who is unclean and eats the flesh of the communion sacrifice, which is for Jehovah, that person must be cut off from his people."-Leviticus 7:20.

A person could not offer a communion sacrifice to Jehovah if they were unclean for any reason. First, they had to give a sin or guilt offering to sanctify themselves before Jehovah, and then they were allowed to eat of the communion meal with Jehovah. If they were to offer the communion sacrifice in an unclean state they were to be put to death.

So while no one is under the law today, that gives us a glimpse of Jehovah's view of being unclean and trying to be at peace with Jehovah. One first must cleanse themselves of all uncleanliness, then they may have a good relation with Jehovah.

So what of the pagan practices that Christendom has adopted. Does God view them as clean and acceptable?

Scripture says, concerning the pagan practices of the nations:

"No; but I say that what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons."-1 Corinthians 10:20, 21.

The rituals and traditions of the pagans that are at the roots of the traditions in Christmas are really things sacrificed to demons. And God says you cannot be partaking of the table of Jehovah and at the same time the table of the demons.

Can one really sit down at the communion table to eat and be at peace with Jehovah God, and at the same time use practices and traditions dedicated to demons?

The Christmas Day may have some pagan origins. But Christmas does not. Some peoples practices of sacrifices etc etc are all peoples practices, not Christmas itself. On Christmas Day some people just have a small tree, drink and celebrate with their wives and family. No church. And some people go to church but there are no priests in that church and they dont do the traditional rituals, its more like a party with alcohol in the car boots.

Thus, the post is not universal.

I too agree that Christmas is on the wrong day. I also do think that it replaced a pagan celebration. But its the day that has that issue, not Christmas. Lets say that one person does not know his birthday, yet he celebrates on some day he picked for his convenience. The day is an issue, but not his celebration. I see no problem.

I do see your point about the rituals which I have no adherence to whatsoever.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Its true though...ain't it....?
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For the record, just to get some things straight so you can stop trying to invalidate my opinion through cowardly means:

No, it's not true. Honestly, I haven't truly been a Christian in years. I would basically turn to it from time to time as a comfort out of depression, fear and/or nostalgia. But it never lasted long. It was a big part of my life for a time that I had difficulty letting go. But I basically have. Sometimes you need to grieve the past and gradually move on. I haven't been to a church service in over a year, almost 2 years now. And I can say for the first time in a long time - I don't miss it. Christianity caused me a lot of psychological trauma from my days of fanaticism and abstinence, and I openly despise its harmful teachings and effects.

Secondly, I was devoted to the Olympian Gods for while but gradually lost my calling to them. Things change and people change. I had to go through a period of healing, re-evaluating my worldview and myself, and finally move on to integrating all aspects of myself in order to be true to me. I had to accept my "shadow" and seek balance. So I felt that I had no more room to grow in Hellenic religion and it no longer suited my values or interests. It was too restrictive and, honestly, reminded me too much of Christianity. So I had to let that go. I am now quite comfortable with my LHP Heathen path and worldview. It also affords me a way to connect with my heritage.

Lastly, no, I do not "worship Satan". Not in the way you're thinking. Satan, to me, is not a literal entity or being. It is a primal archetype or force for freedom, independence and self-realization in humanity. Satanism, to me, is primarily a worldview and stance towards modern society. It's a form of spiritual anarchism and self-empowerment that transgresses social convention.

So I would appreciate it if you would stop spreading misconceptions about me in an attempt to insult. I'm not going to repeat myself again.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
For the record, just to get some things straight so you can stop trying to invalidate my opinion through cowardly means:
What cowardly means? You savaged my brother's post as "hateful and idiotic JW propaganda" and I defended him because I thought you of all people had no right to criticize anyone's religion as you have chopped and changed so often over the years between Catholicism and other religions.
I am pleased that you have found your spiritual home, however long that lasts.

No, it's not true. Honestly, I haven't truly been a Christian in years. I would basically turn to it from time to time as a comfort out of depression, fear and/or nostalgia. But it never lasted long. It was a big part of my life for a time that I had difficulty letting go. But I basically have. Sometimes you need to grieve the past and gradually move on. I haven't been to a church service in over a year, almost 2 years now. And I can say for the first time in a long time - I don't miss it. Christianity caused me a lot of psychological trauma from my days of fanaticism and abstinence, and I openly despise its harmful teachings and effects.

God given freedom has limits...it always has, right from the beginning. Its why we have laws....its why God gave us laws. Too much freedom can lead to big problems.

I believe that what you rejected was the Catholic faith, not Christianity. You rejected the god that punished and burned people alive for daring to sin when sin was inherent in them.....the god who had an equally sinful man sit in a box whilst he absolved you of sin by the recitation of some meaningless words.....that was never "Christianity" as Jesus taught it.

My thoughts there are, 'be careful about what you are indoctrinated to believe'.....always do your own research to make sure that what you practice is what Christ taught. The Catholic church has a lot to answer for in that regard.

Secondly, I was devoted to the Olympian Gods for while but gradually lost my calling to them. Things change and people change. I had to go through a period of healing, re-evaluating my worldview and myself, and finally move on to integrating all aspects of myself in order to be true to me. I had to accept my "shadow" and seek balance. So I felt that I had no more room to grow in Hellenic religion and it no longer suited my values or interests. It was too restrictive and, honestly, reminded me too much of Christianity. So I had to let that go. I am now quite comfortable with my LHP Heathen path and worldview. It also affords me a way to connect with my heritage.

So the inherent spirituality in you was searching for the right "god(s)" to put faith in?...and a "religion" to express your own spirituality?
Do you understand why you chafed at restriction? Restrictions are not always a bad thing....sometimes they can save you from a world of trouble. It isn't the restrictions themselves, but the reasons for them that we need to concentrate on.

Lastly, no, I do not "worship Satan". Not in the way you're thinking. Satan, to me, is not a literal entity or being. It is a primal archetype or force for freedom, independence and self-realization in humanity. Satanism, to me, is primarily a worldview and stance towards modern society. It's a form of spiritual anarchism and self-empowerment that transgresses social convention.

This is interesting since satan in the Bible is a deceiver.....one who can "transform himself into an angel of light" so that he can present himself to you as your long lost savior.....the 'god' you've been searching for.

Isn't rebellion part of fallen human nature? Rebellion isn't always a bad thing either, as long as what you are rebelling against is evil. What if this rebel paints himself as a wonderful friend, giving you all the freedom you need to suit yourself? Will this "self-empowerment" lead you to the same destination as satan's first victim? He also masqueraded as her friend, with only her best interests at heart....yet it was a trap, with a very sad ending.

So I would appreciate it if you would stop spreading misconceptions about me in an attempt to insult. I'm not going to repeat myself again.

I have not spread any misconceptions as far as I am aware....your history here is known by all who have 'lived' here a long time.....I am grateful for your explanation however, and hope that you find peace in this place where you now find yourself....sincerely. We all need to find our place.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
What cowardly means? You savaged my brother's post as "hateful and idiotic JW propaganda" and I defended him because I thought you of all people had no right to criticize anyone's religion as you have chopped and changed so often over the years between Catholicism and other religions.
I am pleased that you have found your spiritual home, however long that lasts.



God given freedom has limits...it always has, right from the beginning. Its why we have laws....its why God gave us laws. Too much freedom can lead to big problems.

I believe that what you rejected was the Catholic faith, not Christianity. You rejected the god that punished and burned people alive for daring to sin when sin was inherent in them.....the god who had an equally sinful man sit in a box whilst he absolved you of sin by the recitation of some meaningless words.....that was never "Christianity" as Jesus taught it.

My thoughts there are, 'be careful about what you are indoctrinated to believe'.....always do your own research to make sure that what you practice is what Christ taught. The Catholic church has a lot to answer for in that regard.



So the inherent spirituality in you was searching for the right "god(s)" to put faith in?...and a "religion" to express your own spirituality?
Do you understand why you chafed at restriction? Restrictions are not always a bad thing....sometimes they can save you from a world of trouble. It isn't the restrictions themselves, but the reasons for them that we need to concentrate on.



This is interesting since satan in the Bible is a deceiver.....one who can "transform himself into an angel of light" so that he can present himself to you as your long lost savior.....the 'god' you've been searching for.

Isn't rebellion part of fallen human nature? Rebellion isn't always a bad thing either, as long as what you are rebelling against is evil. What if this rebel paints himself as a wonderful friend, giving you all the freedom you need to suit yourself? Will this "self-empowerment" lead you to the same destination as satan's first victim? He also masqueraded as her friend, with only her best interests at heart....yet it was a trap, with a very sad ending.



I have not spread any misconceptions as far as I am aware....your history here is known by all who have 'lived' here a long time.....I am grateful for your explanation however, and hope that you find peace in this place where you now find yourself now....sincerely. We all need to find our place.
I'm not interested in your preaching or your opinion about my path and the journey there. I've heard it before. You're not going to get me to convert so you may as well drop it. It's also my personal business that I don't care to discuss with you. And my original post in this thread was deserved as I don't take kindly to bigoted slander. You can't demean the beliefs and practices of others and then whine when someone is blunt with you about it. Thethread creator can defend himself if he pleases but chooses to ignore my posts. Whatever.

As for the last thing you said - thank you, if you're truly sincere. I do feel content now.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
And my original post in this thread was deserved as I don't take kindly to bigoted slander. You can't demean the beliefs and practices of others and then whine when someone is blunt with you about it.

Wasn't what you posted "bigoted slander"? Why are you then complaining about it being dished back to you? Seriously? Nothing in the OP is false.....every word of it is true. If you criticize the beliefs of JW's you criticize all of us as we all believe the same things, especially about false worship. We have come out of all faiths because we saw the truth and were satisfied that it was something that God approved of, not just ourselves. We understand that not everyone agrees, just as not everyone agreed with Jesus...it didn't make him any less right in our opinion.

As for the last thing you said - thank you, if you're truly sincere. I do feel content now.

Yes, it was sincere.....we all need to find our place, and if you have finally found yours, I am pleased that you feel content now.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Wasn't what you posted "bigoted slander"? Why are you then complaining about it being dished back to you? Seriously? Nothing in the OP is false.....every word of it is true. If you criticize the beliefs of JW's you criticize all of us as we all believe the same things, especially about false worship. We have come out of all faiths because we saw the truth and were satisfied that it was something that God approved of, not just ourselves. We understand that not everyone agrees, just as not everyone agreed with Jesus...it didn't make him any less right in our opinion.



Yes, it was sincere.....we all need to find our place, and if you have finally found yours, I am pleased that you feel content now.
I said what I had to say to you. Not my fault your religion teaches hatred and demeans everyone who has different beliefs. Get mad at that group of men in Brooklyn or wherever who tell you what to believe.
 
No one cares about your hateful and idiotic JW propaganda. Let me repeat to you: to many, it's your god who is the "demon".

I saw no hate in that persons post. So many Christians condemn other Christians to hell because of doctrinal differences. Almost every Christian doctrine condemns the others.I know. I have sat in their churches and congregations and they love it so much. The Catholics are called satanic by others because they sprinkle and not dunk. Others are worshipping on the wrong day of the week. Other believe in doing good works as a way to heaven which gets them condemned as unrightous by other factions. And the list goes on and on. Yes I have heard them being comdemned to hell with great loud voices from behind the pulpit And then those who condemned them so loudly were condemned by a different faction for their doctrines
Just one of the reasons I left Christianity. Just one of yhe reasons. They judge others who profess Christ as Lord to hell while stating themselves that they do not judge others. It seemed to me besides the hipocracy. If one sect condemns the other and vise versa then all ended up being condemned in the end.
Not the kind of religion I would call merciful and forgiving. Not even caring and understanding.
Just saying
The OP was not hateful.
BTW. Isnt there a verse that says as you so judge. . .
IMO. About 90% of American Christianity needs to learn the meaning of forgiveness.
 
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God does not dignify the demons by recording their names. Not even Satan's name is recorded in the Bible. Did you know that the Bible, although mentioning God by his name Jehovah over 7,000 times, does not mention the names of any angels but two: Gabriel and Michael.
Actually it did once name the names of your enemies. . the fallen angels. There was a book in the Bible that did. But later a group of men called the council of Ladiocia took it out.
That missing book is also quoted by other books still in the current popular Bible. (and actually like the book of Isaiah its actually two books by two different authors but listed as one)
One of the authors of this book that was taken out of your new revised Bible is quoted and referenced to.
Ever wonder why a snake is on the medical staff insignia. "Surely you will not die. But you will become like God." isnt that the promise of the evil one? Isnt that what medicine promises.
Anyways. This original Bible book (yes the original Bible) names these fallen angels by name and how many there were when they fell and what they do by area of expertise. War. Medicine. Etc.
This book which was removed also explains things that seem missing or confusing in your Bible of today. Like the verse that says the sons of god took women and bred giants. Genesis 6. 4. its what the flood was about. This book fits in like a missing puzzle piece answering a lot of questions in your book. Half of it I am OK with it being removed. But the other half belomgs IMO. Like I said. Two different authors.
Now why would a council of men take out a book that listed all your enemies and what they had done to mankind before the flood?. I wonder.
Case in point. The fallen angels were listed by name in the original Bible. A small group of men got together and took them out.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I saw no hate in that persons post. So many Christians condemn other Christians to hell because of doctrinal differences. Almost every Christian doctrine condemns the others.I know. I have sat in their churches and congregations and they love it so much. The Catholics are called satanic by others because they sprinkle and not dunk. Others are worshipping on the wrong day of the week. Other believe in doing good works as a way to heaven which gets them condemned as unrightous by other factions. And the list goes on and on. Yes I have heard them being comdemned to hell with great loud voices from behind the pulpit And then those who condemned them so loudly were condemned by a different faction for their doctrines
Just one of the reasons I left Christianity. Just one of yhe reasons. They judge others who profess Christ as Lord to hell while stating themselves that they do not judge others. It seemed to me besides the hipocracy. If one sect condemns the other and vise versa then all ended up being condemned in the end.
Not the kind of religion I would call merciful and forgiving. Not even caring and understanding.
Just saying
The OP was not hateful.
BTW. Isnt there a verse that says as you so judge. . .
IMO. About 90% of American Christianity needs to learn the meaning of forgiveness.
What? Your post doesn't make much sense. You go on about how hateful Christians are but then say the OP isn't hateful when it's just crapping all over people with different religions. They called the Gods of indigenous religions "demons"! How is that not hateful?!
 
What? Your post doesn't make much sense. You go on about how hateful Christians are but then say the OP isn't hateful when it's just crapping all over people with different religions. They called the Gods of indigenous religions "demons"! How is that not hateful?!
Yeah OK if you wish. Both sides condemn the other
 
This isn't a "both sides" thing. My "side" isn't the one who committed genocide against indigenous people and their cultures, and still spreads hatred towards them.
I am not going to condemn your actions as demonic or hell bound. Find another. Y'all seem pretty capable of doing it yourselves anyways
 
I am not going to condemn your actions as demonic or hell bound. Find another. Y'all seem pretty capable of doing it yourselves anyways
Oh and speaking of genocide. Did you know that only 1/3 of those hitler gassed were jews? Did you know he also went after JW? Speaking of genocide and oppression
 
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