African American Culture Appropriation(hypocrisy?)

[Cacotopia]

I'm talking about the U.S. actually. Your girlfriend and myself to those backwoods thinkers in the South we are just one word to them, that is what we have in common which is our mutual experience with the ugliness of racism.

I'm from the South, you aren't that word to me, and neither is my girlfriend, I am mixed. Native American/White.

Except she doesn't have that, not in your terms of one pigment of skin slated against another pigment of skin? The worries she has are with the tribalism in Mombasa. Her tribe lost the "democratic" election this past year, and the people of the opposing side and a different tribe, yet still black I might add started killing people in the streets that was of the previous president's tribe. There is systemic "racism" there but they are all of the same race but of different tribes.

Tribism?

Another great example is Rwanda, the Hutu wholesale slaughter of the Tutsi peoples. It's "racism" in regards to a minority treating a majority like sh*t, and them rising up and wiping them out.

 

[Cacotopia]

"People of color" does not specifically denote African-American. Alas, I wouldn't ask an Indian from India about Chinese culture no more I'd ask a Christian about Sikhism. Considering some of the people that responded you received som well uninformed answers.


No. My point is this forum is not frequented by African-Americans and in fact I'm among the 1% here and with that being said I don't think you can get an accurate answer of something like the question you posed by those not of the demographic.

Why wouldn't you ask an Indian about China, what if they lived on the border with China, you think cultures don't mix at those invisible lines? They always do.

How is it there are Russians that look like Mongolians? Is it perhaps that they live on the borders of Mongolia?

I would be better informed asking an Indian about China than I would you who lives on the other side of the planet.

 

[columbus]

Your sister is "one of them"?? (Is it an age thing, me thinks?)

My sister is an audiologist on staff of a School for the Deaf.
Her workdays are spent largely with deaf people.

Deaf-LGBT
deaf-homosexual

I remember you saying you dont agree with LGBTQ culture. Im wondering if its just people of differing cultures behaviors and views more than the logic of people wanting to keep their traditions aside from who or what another wants to do with it.

It's rather like this, yes.
It's not that I don't agree with LBGTQ culture. But there are some aspects that I don't like. One is the rampant victimhood.
But in this particular case, you using ASL doesn't harm anybody in any way. There are forms of appropriation that harm or dehumanize, this just isn't one.
Tom

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Can I quote this and for use starting another thread?

have at it haus

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can phrase it this way.

(Genalizing) Your sister works with deaf people and most likely in part Deaf. She comes from a hearing/deaf view where deaf people are seen and defines as deaf because or hearing ability. Sign language is a medium of communication but not a cultural medium where she, as a hearing person would not know 100%. Even Children of Deaf Adults (CODA) arent "part of the club" and they are part of both Deaf culture as well as adapting to their parents inability to hear.

A step up would be an ASL/English interpreter. I was studying to become an interpreter (I wanted to be a speech pathologist when I was young). Interpreters are more so cultural mediums not just language. They must respect Deaf as a community and people whose language is the cornerstone of their community. They have to understand their client are victims too (as with LGBT, women, racial minorities, and so forth), and be sensitive to Deaf reactions between themselves and the hearing world.

Its just like LGBT just the manner of protest isnt flamboyant.

CODAS are the next level to understanding. Like yourselve not wanting to associate with LGBT culture, even some deaf people dont want to associate with the Dear Community.

As with language, its embedded in the community that to twke that by mixing it with hearing usage is literally tearing the only means of communication between visually-depended individuals. Its taking away their communication.

Thats why they are a victim. Hearing are taking their communication away literally destorting it. Your sister may speak ASL but knowing the language for work and knowing it within a community are two totally different things.

As for appropriation, its really something you gotta experience if not an ally of it. Im culturally sensitive. That, and it was at its worse over forty years ago. We've improved on it but still consider deafness a disability.

To be brutely honest, age has alot to do with how we view things. Im only 37 compared to you; so, LGBT and Deaf Culture then is extremely different then as it is today. Even The Church is another example of shift in acceptence and less killing and commiting people as insane or disabled. I cant imagine being indoctrinated in the Church in thr forties and fifties. I love the Church but I can see how one can feel icky because of its teachings.

Anyway. You understand the experience if you are deaf, understand the community, if Deaf, understand the culture clashes as well if CODA, understand the importance of communication gaps if an audiologist, become culturally aware and sensitive if an interpreter, and supporting and understanding if an ally.

I know I typed a run on. Hope you understand it, though. Im sure your sister gave you some highlight on it?

@columbus forgot to quote

 

[Twilight Hue]

It's bad to appropriate black culture because most black people in America are in America because their ancestors were brought to America in chains and there was an attempted erasure of their culture. Certain traditions aren't appropriated out of appreciation but as a way to take individual practices and assimilate them. Even if it's not the intent, it's frequently the outcome.
Most black people in America cannot be faulted for having been influenced by different European cultures which were literally forced onto their ancestors as a means of forced assimilation.

I can see a pretty distinct difference between the two.

There was a proactive attempt to reconcile with African tradition and roots decades ago. Sadly unlike native nations here, African culture and tradition was all but eliminated through assimilation into North America by the Europeans.

I remember meeting an older woman who wore traditional clothing and had a rainstick and explained what she knew about her culture. I'm all for anybody who tries to preserve such things. I don't want to see a homogenized society.

 

[columbus]

Its taking away their communication.

No it isn't. That's my whole point.


Hearing people who learn and use ASL are not taking anything away from deaf people. Quite the opposite, if more people learned it deaf folks would be less at a disadvantage and isolated.
Laying claim to the language is one of the more ridiculous manifestations of the culture of victimhood and entitlement.

It's no different from learning a bit of Mexican so as to be able to connect with new immigrants better.
Tom

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No it isn't. That's my whole point.

I know this statement is wrong. We are all entitled to our opinions. Unlike religion and other "gray" issues; this one is a fact history and present. You need to be culturally sensitive to understand what it means to take other people's traditions, language, and culture and what it means "to take it".

Hearing people who learn and use ASL are not taking anything away from deaf people. Quite the opposite, if more people learned it deaf folks would be less at a disadvantage and isolated.

Laying claim to the language is one of the more ridiculous manifestations of the culture of victimhood and entitlement.

This is a whole conversation in itself. That's why Deaf are in victimhood because of this type of view. It's alright. The problem is the Deaf were physically abused for not being about to hear. You may not agree with the cultural part; but, disagreeing doesn't wipe away people's experiences nor take away why people come together because of their experiences both good reasons and ones they both struggle together.

The reason why American Sign Language (LSF etc) is the language of the Deaf is because the history of signed language adapted within a specific group of people. Like any language, it has it's own dialect depending on country. It has it's on mixture for example French Sign Language and English. We wouldn't say Spanish is an American language. We wouldn't say an African language is "owned" or originated and spoken by people in China.

Anyone can speak in signed language. Signed language isn't the issue. It's actual languages: American Sign Language, LSF, BSL, etc, that the Deaf wants to keep within their own community.

Any other country, we need to be sensitive to cultural differences. The Deaf Community is no exception.

It's no different from learning a bit of Mexican so as to be able to connect with new immigrants better.

No. Deaf Community are minorities. ASL (etc) are their means of communicating not because of different countries but because of like medium by means communication can take place: a visual method. A person who speaks ASL may not know BSL. A person who speaks BSL may not know LSF. I mean, I can speak Spanish all I want, but we have so many people who speak spanish here that I can be fluent but I'm not a native. The language is not mine. I wasn't raised around it; nor, am I from any country that speaks it.

It goes beyond physical language. Way beyond that.

Stealing isn't a good word. Cultural appropriation is a better way to describe using other people's cultural traditions, languages, etc without respect to the people who originally use it. This is for any country and any minority. In America, it's hard to see that unless one is part of it, works around it, or raised in it (or so have you).

It's really something that can't be seen in one thread. There is a lot of cultural sensitivity to understand other people's views. You can keep your opinions. Just be mindful of how you express it to others who don't agree with you. Minorities are not so much wanting you guys to change your mind. We look for respect. At the very least.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I know this statement is wrong. We are all entitled to our opinions. Unlike religion and other "gray" issues; this one is a fact history and present. You need to be culturally sensitive to understand what it means to take other people's traditions, language, and culture and what it means "to take it".



This is a whole conversation in itself. That's why Deaf are in victimhood because of this type of view. It's alright. The problem is the Deaf were physically abused for not being about to hear. You may not agree with the cultural part; but, disagreeing doesn't wipe away people's experiences nor take away why people come together because of their experiences both good reasons and ones they both struggle together.

The reason why American Sign Language (LSF etc) is the language of the Deaf is because the history of signed language adapted within a specific group of people. Like any language, it has it's own dialect depending on country. It has it's on mixture for example French Sign Language and English. We wouldn't say Spanish is an American language. We wouldn't say an African language is "owned" or originated and spoken by people in China.

Anyone can speak in signed language. Signed language isn't the issue. It's actual languages: American Sign Language, LSF, BSL, etc, that the Deaf wants to keep within their own community.

Any other country, we need to be sensitive to cultural differences. The Deaf Community is no exception.



No. Deaf Community are minorities. ASL (etc) are their means of communicating not because of different countries but because of like medium by means communication can take place: a visual method. A person who speaks ASL may not know BSL. A person who speaks BSL may not know LSF. I mean, I can speak Spanish all I want, but we have so many people who speak spanish here that I can be fluent but I'm not a native. The language is not mine. I wasn't raised around it; nor, am I from any country that speaks it.

It goes beyond physical language. Way beyond that.

Stealing isn't a good word. Cultural appropriation is a better way to describe using other people's cultural traditions, languages, etc without respect to the people who originally use it. This is for any country and any minority. In America, it's hard to see that unless one is part of it, works around it, or raised in it (or so have you).

It's really something that can't be seen in one thread. There is a lot of cultural sensitivity to understand other people's views. You can keep your opinions. Just be mindful of how you express it to others who don't agree with you. Minorities are not so much wanting you guys to change your mind. We look for respect. At the very least.

Respect does not preclude borrowing. I'm still at a complete loss as to how you think learning and using tools to help communication and understanding (e.g. ASL) by outsiders is somhow robbing anyone of anything.

Let's try this a different way... what do you mean when you say you want people to be respe tful? What do you want to see people doing that they aren't already doing?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Let's try this a different way... what do you mean when you say you want people to be respe tful? What do you want to see people doing that they aren't already doing?

I've seen Deaf people get angry at hearing students who wish to know their language and culture. What the hearing do is start using the ASL apart from knowing the Deaf and Deaf culture for which it is rightfully used. Instead, they use it with friends, they make up their own signs, and pretend they are Deaf to be "in" Deaf culture. They feel its okay because they feel if they do this, Deaf people will like them as they like or connect with their peers.

From the Deaf perspective (and mine) its rude. It degrades and deteriotes a language that, because its visual in nature, is natural for the Deaf to pick up faster than hearing. Its their means of communication. Hearing people took their English language and mixed it with ASL (called Signed Exact English/SEE) in order to quote on quote teach the Deaf a language that they, hearing people by nature, do not need to use. (Assuming these hearing people arent mute or having brain/listening challenges)

Its not visually native for a hearing person to use something only natural for someone dependent on visual language. Hearing people use signed language, in attempt to teach them "English on the hands.". Its highly inappropriate. Thats like a non-native Spanish person who has no aquisition of english trying to teach me English in hopes I understand the languge he, himself, isnt fluent.

Its not borrowing. The teaching example is the best I can give at the moment

 

[Guitar's Cry]

The term "cultural appropriation" is frequently misused. It is supposed to refer to usurping cultural practices in a negative fashion, not innocuous or benign usages.

Agreed. Appreciating and celebrating another culture is very different from profiting (monetarily or socially) from it, especially when there is an historical precedent of inhumane treatment.

 

[sealchan]

You ever go to the country that the African Americans, or ANYONE ELSE are yammering about, hey stop stealing our culture? They're selling it like hot cakes over there. They sell it everywhere in the origin nation. I have yet to find a culture in the world that doesn't sell their own culture within their own borders. Tourism is a massive economic business for them. I haven't been everywhere yet, 30 or so countries, but literally every single one I been too they sell their cultural identity to tourists. Come see our ceremonies, but you have to wear our sarongs and kamen, which they ain't gonna lend to you, you gone buy those suckers, I have a batik sarong and kamen when I have to attend important ceremonies. they sell kilts in Scotland, lederhosens in Germany, and "authentic TX BS" is a cow patty contained in resin. It's everywhere.

So who are these folks speaking against cultural appropriation? I find it odd that they aren't going to the source.

I think the idea is that it is there's to sell and not someone else.

 

[Cacotopia]

There was a proactive attempt to reconcile with African tradition and roots decades ago. Sadly unlike native nations here, African culture and tradition was all but eliminated through assimilation into North America by the Europeans.

I remember meeting an older woman who wore traditional clothing and had a rainstick and explained what she knew about her culture. I'm all for anybody who tries to preserve such things. I don't want to see a homogenized society.

I disagree partly. From a cultural anthropologist's standpoint(I'm not one) it's important to preserve culture. From a societal standpoint I think it is necessary to allow certain traditions to crumble to dust and never be practiced again. Genital mutilation, neck rings, bound feet, bacha bazi, hindu temple sex slaves, are just a few of the harmful traditional practices still in existence.

 

[Cooky]

I've seen Deaf people get angry at hearing students who wish to know their language and culture...


...From the Deaf perspective (and mine) its rude.

But there is no "Deaf perspective". There is no black perspective, and there is no white perspective. There is only people, with varying degrees of opinions. No one opinion is more right than another when it comes to feelings.

As far as cultural appropriation, there is no right or wrong. It's all subjective.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But there is no "Deaf perspective". There is no black perspective, and there is no white perspective. There is only people, with varying degrees of opinions. No one opinion is more right than another when it comes to feelings

Its cultural sensitivity and communicating with people who have gone through, X and the reasons they call themselves Deaf (not deaf), Black (not african american), Duid (not pagan), and LGBTQ (not homosexual).

Each of these groups have history and their perspective as a group shows what each group have in common with their peers and which does not. It also shows how each group sees another based on their experiences. A Deaf person will see hearing people differently because communication barriers strongly influences the relationship between both groups. They have a visual perspective of the world; by the nature of being hearing, hearing people do not.

Someone who takes on the term Black doesnt do this willy nilly. To him and his peers, its an pride term to differientiate themselves by name from how whites called them: ni*, negro, black, africian american.

Its reclaiming a word and giving it a new meaning based in history. A white (Chinese, German, etc) wouldnt share a black persons and their peers view of the world. Compared to their counterparts, they have a different perspective.

A Druid wouldnt call herself a pagan because of history. They rather take the term Pagan (as Black to an negro), or use their name of faith (Joe Smoe not black).

Calling LGBTQ homosexuals is identifying their identity with their sexual attraction. Straight people dont do this. They identify as their culture, religion, and like interest see fit. The LGBTQ view (if you lool it up this weekend; PRIDE weekend), our views on equality is so much different than our counterparts. Our views are not sexually discriminative. Our perspectives mirror our opinions and decisions.

Cultural sensitivity is respecting each of these groups and how they see the world especially if you are straight, hearing, and/or white. It is subjective.

As far as cultural appropriation, there is no right or wrong. It's all subjective.

Nothing wrong with subjectivity.

To those who have been hurt over this statement, I find it wrong that Some people with your (and others) views harm people because of it. Its not your opinions, its how people use their opinions to belittle and discriminate others.

So, a hearing person acting Deaf around Deaf people belittles and insults the unit of their connection among their peers. Cultural sensitivity is letting them have their place. Pretend you' deaf all you want but respect those around you if present by not pretending you are.

Many whites take on black customs (customs originated among black people because of discrimination likewise ASL among Deaf). To do so, from their perspective (above) not yours, is insulting them. Why would they want a white person to take (use) whatever personally let them survive together as a group. It is subjective. It is personal.

Unless a straight ally, I dont see straights taking/using things what LGBTQ have to survive. I see them do harm bacause of who we choose to be intimate with. There isnt much cultural appropriation to "sin" just out right discrimination and crime.

Cultural appropriation is when you understand these things insomuch it makes you empathetic to the desires of others.

If you arent able to do that, thats your thing. People above are looking for respect. From their view, this includes respecting cultural boundaries. At the end, its not about us one hundred percent. Thats ego.

Do whatever you want. Just acknowledge their means of respect Around us. If thats the least you can do.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Cultural appropriation is (CA)

Visiting a Cherokee reservation, and taking their X jewelry and wearing it to your prom or business social. The resident didnt sell you the item. You appropriated it and used it in a manner not related to its actual purpose

Non-(NCA) is going to a native american store and buying the same jewelry and using however you want.

CA is using ASL in a manner (say making up your own signs and using it in ASL) without respect to the origin of visual people in which the language develop.

NCA-is using signed language to help communication barriers or using ASL to communicate with the Deaf and deaf who use that language as a unit. Its not sign english on the hands, its a language to rather than mime.

CA-is a white person who has Not grown up in a "black" environment but still comes in the neighborhood or around people who uses gestures, clothing, and speech that originated and developed for X reasons in the black community and its history not communities as a whole.

NCA-is when a white person grows up in that environment and naturally use manualisms even though because or skin tone and its history, (like CODA to Deaf), still have a lining seperating them from their black peers.

CA-Is being a non-ally and going to a PRIDE festival and wearing the colors specific to the LGBTQ flag (pink on top) instead of a regular rainbow. The colors mean something to LGBTQ (divsrsity and equality) as well as to the person who created it both the original flag and its recreation.

NCA-Is being an ally to LGBTQ and having respect by using the flag in manner in which it is represented by the people who its originally made for. It also means going to a store to buy a rainbow PRIDE earings not being an non-ally and wearing it to PRIDE.

These are not specific to the actual thing or behavior appropriated, but how it is and whether the person who uses them (above examples) has good attitude around the people in which these behaviors and items originated.

 

[sealchan]

For me this whole discussion comes down to one's awareness of others...how they may or may not feel, who has experienced discrimination or worse historically, etc. You need to listen to others and build a bridge before you do something that might amount to exploitation and cause public condemnation. It's good business on a moral and professional level.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Why wouldn't you ask an Indian about China, what if they lived on the border with China, you think cultures don't mix at those invisible lines? They always do.

How is it there are Russians that look like Mongolians? Is it perhaps that they live on the borders of Mongolia?

I would be better informed asking an Indian about China than I would you who lives on the other side of the planet.

If I asked an Indian about the Ming dynasty more often than not, they wouldn’t know nothing about it unless they’re a student of history. A white person or any other group has no business trying to explain what it’s like to be black even if they studied it. It’s one thing to study culture it’s another to live it.

 

[Cacotopia]

If I asked an Indian about the Ming dynasty more often than not, they wouldn’t know nothing about it unless they’re a student of history. A white person or any other group has no business trying to explain what it’s like to be black even if they studied it. It’s one thing to study culture it’s another to live it.

My people were slaughtered wholesale by the millions hundreds of years before your people were enslaved and brought over as cheap labor, then we were rounded up and put on the most infertile land in America. Our culture has been nearly eradicated as well, are we less important? At least you had value alive, we were killed for a price.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

My people were slaughtered wholesale by the millions hundreds of years before your people were enslaved and brought over as cheap labor, then we were rounded up and put on the most infertile land in America. Our culture has been nearly eradicated as well, are we less important? At least you had value alive, we were killed for a price.

Oh God here we go again with the comparative analysis of who suffered more than who bull crap. Bro miss me with the narrative crap. You know I get really sick of people trying to water down the sufferings of another by putting in place their ancestral suffering. I guess you never heard of the millions of Africans who died during the middle passage right?

Dude best advice I can give you is with that type of mindset stick to your own culture. Don’t worry about what my culture does. Cause right now you sound like one of them uninformed white dudes trying to have an informed opinion and it’s irritating. When you want to learn about culture you gotta come with humility and stop trying to one up someone else’s pain just because you feel some type of way.

Now, I don’t know if you’re white, but your attitude is indicative of the conversations I have with whites in my life who make these seemingly harmless opinions or ask questions then they come with this bull crap. Stuff like this ruins your sincerity because now you’re coming from a place of ignorance instead of understanding.

See, if this was a public discussion I would have shut you down like Dr. Eric Dyson cause because this was perhaps the most asinine comment. Since you have an African girlfriend learn about the history of her people and leave African-American history to us because it’s obvious you, and others here like you are unwilling to learn. I have little patience for those who water down the historical sufferings of another.

It’s amazing my long lost brothers and sisters can cast type us in a negative light but are attracted to some of the most idiotic human beings. SMH European Colonialism at its finest.


Btw if your people were Irish that myth of Irish being enslaved comparable to Africans was debunked in several articles already:


Debunking a Myth: The Irish Were Not Slaves, Too