African American Culture Appropriation(hypocrisy?)

[Kangaroo Feathers]

When you copy someone else's work without giving them credit, that is considered stealing.

to what level do you want to "give credit" to legitimise cultural borrowings? Do you give the same amount of credit to the many dozens of distinct cultures you borrow from each day, or do you just take it as read that culture is an iterative sharing process?

Others don't share your opinion.

Others can disagree all they like, but if "they" can't explain a rational basis for their opinion, I'm unlikely to change mine.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

People may be interested in the following article to learn more about cultural appropriation from the point of view of a black woman:

"Black people created black culture to retain some semblance of a true, authentic identity for themselves. This has become a deeply meaningful, way-less-than-perfect-but-it’s-ours, beautifully magical identity. Very often it plays out on the world’s stage through music, movies, art, sports, academia ... there is very little in the United States that hasn’t been influenced by black culture in some way. But black people’s existence here is both a crime and a miracle as it relates to descendants of black American slaves. It was never a choice.

When we hold things that belong to — and were created by and for — a group of people with an ethnicity, religion, spirituality, culture, sexual orientation, gender identity, and/or lived experience outside of our own, we must hold these things very carefully and lovingly, acknowledging that we are visitors within that space.

Being a visitor is not only a great honor. It comes with a great responsibility."

How Not to Appropriate: A Guide for White People

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I guess a magic wand can't give people empathy, either.

My empathy is fine, I'm just not buying an illogical appeal to emotion argument.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

My empathy is fine, I'm just not buying an illogical appeal to emotion argument.

"Be sensitive. If someone tells you that something is offensive, try not to search for ways (or lines from the Constitution) to prove to them why their feelings are wrong. Please see them as your neighbor. Take them at their word. Keep in mind that this country was built up with the intention that black people would never be free — they would always be property. Please imagine that these intentions, this lineage, and this history all play a huge part in our present day realities."
How Not to Appropriate: A Guide for White People

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

People may be interested in the following article to learn more about cultural appropriation from the point of view of a black woman:

"Black people created black culture to retain some semblance of a true, authentic identity for themselves. This has become a deeply meaningful, way-less-than-perfect-but-it’s-ours, beautifully magical identity. Very often it plays out on the world’s stage through music, movies, art, sports, academia ... there is very little in the United States that hasn’t been influenced by black culture in some way. But black people’s existence here is both a crime and a miracle as it relates to descendants of black American slaves. It was never a choice.

When we hold things that belong to — and were created by and for — a group of people with an ethnicity, religion, spirituality, culture, sexual orientation, gender identity, and/or lived experience outside of our own, we must hold these things very carefully and lovingly, acknowledging that we are visitors within that space.

Being a visitor is not only a great honor. It comes with a great responsibility."

How Not to Appropriate: A Guide for White People

And no one is trying to take that "black culture" away from black people. But again, culture isn't static, and cultural groups in close proximity share aspects of each other's culture. This has ALWAYS happened. Stamping your feet and crying "but it's ours" has never changed this. It's an anthropological/sociological law. You might as well argue that the speed of light should be changed because it's unfair.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

"Be sensitive. If someone tells you that something is offensive, try not to search for ways (or lines from the Constitution) to prove to them why their feelings are wrong. Please see them as your neighbor. Take them at their word. Keep in mind that this country was built up with the intention that black people would never be free — they would always be property. Please imagine that these intentions, this lineage, and this history all play a huge part in our present day realities."
How Not to Appropriate: A Guide for White People

I keep seeing claims, I'm not seeing justifications. Being sensitive to someone doesn't preclude borrowing from a culture. "But that's offensive!" is not, of itself, an argument. You say "that's cultural appropriation and it's offensive!" and I reply "your accusation of cultural appropriation is offensive!" Whose offence trumps whose? Or maybe, third alternative, people put their big boy pants on and worry about their own cultural practice and stop worrying about other people's?

 

[sealchan]

Empathy vs logic...how many times have these two approaches to truth appear to have come to cross purposes?

The psychologist Carl Jung recognized people had biases of preferring feeling vs thinking. We all can reason with our words, their deginitions and the rules of fair play that follow AND we can reason with our values and the values and experience of others and find ways to build trust and respect.

Both thinking and feeling are forms of reason. In this context, feeling is not emotion but the ability to rationally consider one's values and the values of others (empathy) and come to mutual ground by recognition of similarities and differences and granting the space for each other and the space between to exist and also have value. To state one's intention to reach out across that space is to rationally negotiate that logical separation between value systems.

To ignore this is to continue further towards mutual disrespect and misunderstanding. That is not logical unless one wants to have that outcome.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

I keep seeing claims, I'm not seeing justifications.

You shouldn't need a justification for treating your neighbor respectfully.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

You shouldn't need a justification for treating your neighbor respectfully.

Sure. But you've yet to justify tthe claim that cultural borrowing is disrespectful.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Sure. But you've yet to justify tthe claim that cultural borrowing is disrespectful.

It is justified by black people saying they feel disrespected.

 

[sealchan]

If you find yourself wanting logic to trump empathy you are likely a thinking type. If you find yourself wanting empathy to trump rule-based logic, then you are likely a feeling type.

The Myers & Briggs Foundation - MBTI® Basics

Excerpted with permission from the MBTI® Manual: A Guide to the Development and Use of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator®

Favorite world: Do you prefer to focus on the outer world or on your own inner world? This is called Extraversion (E) or Introversion (I).

Information: Do you prefer to focus on the basic information you take in or do you prefer to interpret and add meaning? This is called Sensing (S) or Intuition (N).

Decisions: When making decisions, do you prefer to first look at logic and consistency or first look at the people and special circumstances? This is called Thinking (T) or Feeling (F).

Structure: In dealing with the outside world, do you prefer to get things decided or do you prefer to stay open to new information and options? This is called Judging (J) or Perceiving (P).

The truth lies in a balance of the two applied to the specific people with which you are wanting to engage. Disengagement will inevitably cause misunderstanding. Logic and empathy both lose in that scenario.

 

[columbus]

You shouldn't need a justification for treating your neighbor respectfully.

Berating people for using a color scheme, a language, or a pair of shoes is treating your neighbor with respect?
Tom

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Berating people for using a color scheme, a language, or a pair of shoes is treating your neighbor with respect?
Tom

To use an analogy, you are saying that you feel disrespected when your neighbor yells at you after your dog pooped on their lawn. You are saying that your neighbor is behaving badly because he complains about your dog's poop on his lawn.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Suffering isn't zero sum, either. While indentured servitude and transportation as punishment weren't exactly the same thing as chatel slavery, they were similar enough that you should feel similarly about both groups subjected to them. Pointing out that other people were treated badly doesn't diminish the suffering of African slaves, and vice versa.

The problem I have is when this is mentioned without me mentioning anything about slavery or historical sufferings of a people. I never said anything about African slavery nor did I mention about suffering or what happened. This was interjected in this discussion. This typically happens in a conversation because some people usually some whites i converse with on this subject tend to have a moment of clarity and try and input their own view perhaps regret or guilt in the subject.

the whole "my people suffered too" especially when i never mentioned suffering gets a little old after a while.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

The problem I have is when this is mentioned without me mentioning anything about slavery or historical sufferings of a people. I never said anything about African slavery nor did I mention about suffering or what happened. This was interjected in this discussion. This typically happens in a conversation because some people usually some whites i converse with on this subject tend to have a moment of clarity and try and input their own view perhaps regret or guilt in the subject.

the whole "my people suffered too" especially when i never mentioned suffering gets a little old after a while.

I think we're getting away from the point, though. Whether people historically suffered or not, is cross cultural sharing acceptable or not, and if not, is that at all, or only in some cases?

 

[Shad]

Are these "rules" applied to other minorities appropriating another minority's culture?

I am up in Canada so a lot of culture in America is imported by media and consumer items. When I was young a lot of First Nations (aboriginals) children adopted the iconic media's rap culture; clothing, music, slang, hair styles, etc, etc from the 80s and 90s. There were Bloods and Crips in the same housing projects and reserves. Loss of culture, hostility toward the police and government already existed due Canada's own history and contemporary issues. Hostility to the major already existed. I doubt many that adopted parts of the media culture were keyed into the history of the culture itself. At best there were similar sentiments over generalized issues and experience as per the above.

Was this acceptable?

 

[columbus]

To use an analogy, you are saying that you feel disrespected when your neighbor yells at you after your dog pooped on their lawn. You are saying that your neighbor is behaving badly because he complains about your dog's poop on his lawn.

That's not applicable.
Pooping on your lawn causes an actual problem.
Wearing a color scheme or whatever doesn't.
How hard is that?
Tom

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

That's not applicable.
Pooping on your lawn causes an actual problem.
Wearing a color scheme or whatever doesn't.
How hard is that?
Tom

The point appears to have sailed well over your head.

 

[columbus]

It is justified by black people saying they feel disrespected.

Let me tell you a true story about appropriation, black people, and respect.
Back in the late 90s, my lesbian friend Danielle and I started a Gay/Straight Alliance here in a small midwestern city. The goal was a group that could provide a comfortable place for well meaning people to learn about gay folks. Learn more about us than the media coverage of AIDS, dysfunctional culture, and child molestation.

One of our strongest straight allies was PJ, rest his soul. He was black, and mostly did race stuff, but his passion for justice went way beyond that. Women's issues, gay issues, immigration, he was on it. He was smart, informed, and busy.

At a preliminary meeting, someone suggested asking the NAAACP for support. They had a track record of fighting for equal rights, and strong connections to local organizations like churches and community center.

PJ flat out said, don't bother. Many of your worst enemies are in the black community. They're already angry that you sodomites appropriated Jesse Jackson's "Rainbow' coalition symbol. They hate you for using terms like Equal Rights, and March on Washington, because it belongs to them. They vehemently oppose you, and will sabotage anything you do, as best as they can.
He was on the board of the local branch of the NAACP, so we moved on forming the GSA. But I asked a few other black people, in case he was hyperbolizing. He wasn't.

I thought about this for awhile.

I occurred to me that I hadn't done anything positive for black people either. I grew up in a really white world. I had to work to overcome my own racist inclinations. So I went to a NAACP meeting. I was more than a little bit of an anomaly, being a really out white gay atheist with a gut level inclination to racism. But I listened and learned and offered to help with stuff. A couple of years later, they elected me to the board of directors.

So when someone like @Epic Beard Man tells me that I cannot understand something simply because I am white, I call BS. And when someone tells me that feeling offended matters more than the facts, I call BS on that too. I will call BS on anything I think is BS. I am always open to counter arguments. But just telling me that I am wrong based on my melanin level, gender, orientation, or whatever is a counterproductive form of bigotry.

One that I am very familiar with, despise, and will call out, even if you are a deaf black lesbian.
Tom

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Let me tell you a true story about appropriation, black people, and respect.
Back in the late 90s, my lesbian friend Danielle and I started a Gay/Straight Alliance here in a small midwestern city. The goal was a group that could provide a comfortable place for well meaning people to learn about gay folks. Learn more about us than the media coverage of AIDS, dysfunctional culture, and child molestation.

One of our strongest straight allies was PJ, rest his soul. He was black, and mostly did race stuff, but his passion for justice went way beyond that. Women's issues, gay issues, immigration, he was on it. He was smart, informed, and busy.

At a preliminary meeting, someone suggested asking the NAAACP for support. They had a track record of fighting for equal rights, and strong connections to local organizations like churches and community center.

PJ flat out said, don't bother. Many of your worst enemies are in the black community. They're already angry that you sodomites appropriated Jesse Jackson's "Rainbow' coalition symbol. They hate you for using terms like Equal Rights, and March on Washington, because it belongs to them. They vehemently oppose you, and will sabotage anything you do, as best as they can.
He was on the board of the local branch of the NAACP, so we moved on forming the GSA. But I asked a few other black people, in case he was hyperbolizing. He wasn't.

I thought about this for awhile.

I occurred to me that I hadn't done anything positive for black people either. I grew up in a really white world. I had to work to overcome my own racist inclinations. So I went to a NAACP meeting. I was more than a little bit of an anomaly, being a really out white gay atheist with a gut level inclination to racism. But I listened and learned and offered to help with stuff. A couple of years later, they elected me to the board of directors.

So when someone like @Epic Beard Man tells me that I cannot understand something simply because I am white, I call BS. And when someone tells me that feeling offended matters more than the facts, I call BS on that too. I will call BS on anything I think is BS. I am always open to counter arguments. But just telling me that I am wrong based on my melanin level, gender, orientation, or whatever is a counterproductive form of bigotry.

One that I am very familiar with, despise, and will call out, even if you are a deaf black lesbian.
Tom

This is really simple. When people say they feel disrespected or offended your first inclination should not be to ask them to justify their emotions. Your first reaction should be to be a good person and see if changing your behavior in trivial ways will alleviate those negative feelings in other people. Telling other people what they shouldn't be offended by is usually a fight not worth having.