African American?

[lilithu]

you were taught to be slaves,think like slaves act like slaves, you personally or someone in your distant past, i dont mean to offend but you need to get over it, it wasnt you!

What's offensive here is that you don't know what you're talking about and yet presume to lecture someone else about her experiences.

She's not talking about the past. She's talking about what the black community is experience RIGHT NOW as a result of the past. You can't "get over" something if it's still continuing, and for Euro-Americans to deny the validity of the experience and claim it's all in the past is beyond insulting. It's willful ignorance.

 

[lilithu]

No but serioulsy I think the handling of Katrina was government "line of command" failure...I dont think if it had been 100% white it would hav been any differnt..It was a dismal failure period.

We disagree.

At the very least, how do explain the media describing white survivors as "searching for food and supplies" while describing black survivors who were doing the exact same thing as "looting"?

And btw, it's not "was." The dismal failure of govt response to the Gulf Coast tragedy continues. Two and a half years after Katrina and Rita hit, people are still living in FEMA trailers -ya know, those things that have been shown to give off toxic levels of formaldehyde that make its occupants sick.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Its not difficult to understand..Im just trying to learn here form you and your perspective.How you woudl "apply' the rememberance and understanding and knowledge of times gone by to solutions in the present..that is all..I mean no disrespect.

Love

Dallas

Sorry if I came off snippy. Carry over from the last post. I get it, although I can't be really more precise than I have been. It's a complicated issue and I don't presume to know all the answers of exactly how we can apply this knowledge, but we must try at least. Perhaps we can discover the best way to apply this type of knowledge to assist us today.

 

[lilithu]

For the record... there are some of us "African Americans" who are not "black".

And there are blacks living in the U.S. who are not "African American."

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

What's offensive here is that you don't know what you're talking about and yet presume to lecture someone else about her experiences.

She's not talking about the past. She's talking about what the black community is experience RIGHT NOW as a result of the past. You can't "get over" something if it's still continuing, and for Euro-Americans to deny the validity of the experience and claim it's all in the past is beyond insulting. It's willful ignorance.

We disagree.

At the very least, how do explain the media describing white survivors as "searching for food and supplies" while describing black survivors who were doing the exact same thing as "looting"?

And btw, it's not "was." The dismal failure of govt response to the Gulf Coast tragedy continues. Two and a half years after Katrina and Rita hit, people are still living in FEMA trailers -ya know, those things that have been shown to give off toxic levels of formaldehyde that make its occupants sick.

Thank you for both these posts. I agree with both of them. The second dealing with Katrina I couldn't comment on because can speak at length about that too. People need the watch the Spike Lee documentary When the Levees Broke. It was very well rounded and contained the opinions of people from all sides of the issue, not just the victims or people who would condemn the government. It is very well worth the 3-4 hour watch.

 

[DallasApple]

We disagree.

At the very least, how do explain the media describing white survivors as "searching for food and supplies" while describing black survivors who were doing the exact same thing as "looting"?

And btw, it's not "was." The dismal failure of govt response to the Gulf Coast tragedy continues. Two and a half years after Katrina and Rita hit, people are still living in FEMA trailers -ya know, those things that have been shown to give off toxic levels of formaldehyde that make its occupants sick.

Well I can gurantee I would have "looted" for food water and any necesities..There were some though..Black and white that were taking jewelry and appliances.I never heard them (and I watched every day all day and have much video recorded) say "the balcks are looting and the whites are searching for food and supplies" never heard that uttered.

Why are the people still living in FEMA trailors do you think?..I think its because the insurance companies bailed out on thier end..Or people did not own thier homes and or had no insruance if so...We cant expect the government to build homes for people and just give them away..If my house gets blown over by a Tornado..I will look to my insurance company to help me rebuild.If my insurance company left me high and dry I would (if I could ) sue them..But I would not expect the government to pay for my home to be rebuilt..Maybe some "aide" since it would be a natrual disaster and charitable orgs. to help me temporarily...

But still..what do you expect the government to do in this case?..Im curious..

Blessings

Dallas

 

[kai]

What's offensive here is that you don't know what you're talking about and yet presume to lecture someone else about her experiences.

but you do? and thats my point its not her experiences.

She's not talking about the past. She's talking about what the black community is experience RIGHT NOW as a result of the past. You can't "get over" something if it's still continuing, and for Euro-Americans to deny the validity of the experience and claim it's all in the past is beyond insulting. It's willful ignorance.

slavery is not still continuing in the USA and hasnt for hundreds of years and you shoudnt have to "get" over somehing that never happened to you in the first place!

no one is denying anything, all european countries recognise their part in slavery, the only people that dont are people that willfully ignore the African contribution and the Islamic one! and if it insults someone to say its in the past then tough luck because you know what! the fact is ,it was all in the past! if the black community has problems then dont use the fact that great ,great ,great grandma was sold as a slave for a reason to go out and join the bloods

 

[kai]

And you still don't get it. I am convinced you are making a rebuttal for the sake of a rebuttal rather than try to see what I am talking about. Going back to study the not-so-distant past of your people to understand it and learn from it, is not self pity kai. When the jews remember the holocaust are they wallowing in self-pity? Or are they reminding themselves of the seriousness of that time even though it was a bad time? Why is it that when black people talk about slavery and in what ways we feel it has affected us, we are automatically wallowing in self-pity? I guess we are supposed to pretend it never happened right?
i dont think you get it ! the holocaust happened only sixty odd years ago there are still survivors alive today. there are still veterans of that war alive today. black people can talk about slavery i invite you to talk abou it if you wish but its history and dont try and use it as an excuse for crime or anything else and lets get one thing straight i did not say pretend it never happened i said research it but dont leave out the African contribution or the Islamic one either.

The reality of the issue present-day is that we in the black community have a myriad of problems, many of which we are perpetuating on ourselves. To say that we should not or cannot look to slavery as a possible root to the problems we face TODAY, is stupid. To solve any problem one must understand the cause of it. To cure any disease one must study the disease itself, find its cause, then cure it from the root. When you want to get rid of weeds from your garden permanently, you don't just cut them from visibility you cut from the root to eliminate it altogether. This is what we must do. Solve our collective problems by focusing on the roots, whether the roots are from yesterday or 200 years ago. a 200 year od root is not your problem

The fact that you are totally blinded and lost on this issue is staggering to me. Furthermore, the fact that you have totally missed my point by continuing to tell me that I need to get over it, and that speaking of it at length in wallowing in self-pity means that me and you can't have this conversation.

i do not mean to offend you but you are not having a conversation about the history of the slave trade you are saying that somehow its affected you in particular in some way and i dont think that is true except for the fact that you live in the USA, but thats my opinion and you have yours, and i am willing to talk to you about anything you wish, i have respect for you here.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

i dont think you get it ! the holocaust happened only sixty odd years ago there are still survivors alive today. there are still veterans of that war alive today.

Do you realize that my grandmother and grandfather were born in 1900? They were born children of slaves. That's number one. And the total injustice that black people endured did not stop when the emancipation proclamation got signed. You do realize that blacks only stopped getting beat down in the streets by police during peaceful protesting in the 60's right? You do realize that just a few weeks ago I was sitting at a stoplight in a well-known racist part of town, right down the street from White Sox park and got called a n****r by three white boys young enough to be my sons. You do remember in 1998 in Jasper, Texas where a black man was killed by three white men right? After beating him they dragged him behind their truck until his body was at least partially dismembered. That was like just ten years ago kai. Is ten years too long?

See all this ain't in the past kai. Slavery is over, but racism is not. Injustice is not. Prejudice isn't over and neither is hatred.

dont try and use it as an excuse for crime or anything else and lets get one thing straight i did not say pretend it never happened i said research it but dont leave out the African contribution or the Islamic one either.

What in the blue hell are you talking about? Who said crime was okay? Who said that? Who's talking about how other people contributed? Stick to the issues at hand. You think it matters to me slightly how slavery got started? Did the Africans who sold us and the Muslims who had a hand in it create jim crow laws and enforce them? Did they segregate the communities and schools? Did they beat protesters whose only crime was to object against injustice? Did they do that or did America do that, you tell me?

and thats my point its not her experiences.

LOL, my life is not my experiences? Until you grow up how I grew up you can't talk. Just accept that this is a facet of life you know nothing about and move on.

 

[kai]

Do you realize that my grandmother and grandfather were born in 1900? They were born children of slaves. That's number one. And the total injustice that black people endured did not stop when the emancipation proclamation got signed. You do realize that blacks only stopped getting beat down in the streets by police during peaceful protesting in the 60's right? You do realize that just a few weeks ago I was sitting at a stoplight in a well-known racist part of town, right down the street from White Sox park and got called a n****r by three white boys young enough to be my sons. You do remember in 1998 in Jasper, Texas where a black man was killed by three white men right? After beating him they dragged him behind their truck until his body was at least partially dismembered. That was like just ten years ago kai. Is ten years too long?

number one so 107 years ago your granparents were born of slaves ok

Number two are we now talking about racial prejudice?

See all this ain't in the past kai. Slavery is over, but racism is not. Injustice is not. Prejudice isn't over and neither is hatred.

again are we now talking about racial prejudice?


What in the blue hell are you talking about? Who said crime was okay? Who said that? Who's talking about how other people contributed? Stick to the issues at hand. You think it matters to me slightly how slavery got started? Did the Africans who sold us and the Muslims who had a hand in it create jim crow laws and enforce them? Did they segregate the communities and schools? Did they beat protesters whose only crime was to object against injustice? Did they do that or did America do that, you tell me?

Do you know we look upon each other with suspicion and are hardest on each other, and more critical about each other than we are anyone else? We are more prone to bring harm and destruction to one another than any one hence black-on-black crime still being a major issue in the black community.

i thought you were alluding that this crime is somehow linked to slavery


i am sticking to the issues at hand you are harkening back to a bygone age. and no america did not do that, a small percentage of rich americans did that hundreds of years ago. and the USA you live in certainly did not do that,and i am not even talking about civil rights for blacks in the sixties or any other time because i agree with probably everything you say about that its modern history in my lifetime



LOL, my life is not my experiences? Until you grow up how I grew up you can't talk. Just accept that this is a facet of life you know nothing about and move on.

Look you were not a slave on a plantation in america right !if you bring that into your mindset then you are willfully doing so of your own free will. call yourself African if you want, but dont forget the African slave trade, and be a muslim if you want but dont forget the millions of Africans that were dragged east instead of west.


Peace kai

 

[zoe and vic]

You know it really looks like the Jew/Gentile relationship. Martin Luther King, Jr. represents God's will that we have unity and become one new man... killed by His own, but His spirit lives on and now we have many, many Jew/Greek children running around to thwart the unforgiveness of old hat relatives and their stubborn, ignorant children. Good thing is that the unity thing was accepted by most Negroes and Whites in America. But the ugly head of foolishness is designed to keep us apart, because the will of God is that we become one.

 

[lilithu]

slavery is not still continuing in the USA and hasn't for hundreds of years and you shoudnt have to "get" over somehing that never happened to you in the first place!

The repercussions of slavery still exist in the U.S.
Systemic racism still exists in the U.S.

It still "happens" to people every day... regardless of how much you deny it.

 

[lilithu]

You know it really looks like the Jew/Gentile relationship. Martin Luther King, Jr. represents God's will that we have unity and become one new man... killed by His own...

What exactly do you mean by saying that Dr. King was "killed by His own"?

 

[kai]

The repercussions of slavery still exist in the U.S.
Systemic racism still exists in the U.S.

It still "happens" to people every day... regardless of how much you deny it.

lets get one thing straight :

racism exists every where including the US i have never denied that. if i have quote me !

the repercussions of slavery may still exist in the US but no one alive today has personal experience of slavery.

 

[lilithu]

lets get one thing straight :

racism exists every where including the US i have never denied that. if i have quote me !

the repercussions of slavery may still exist in the US but no one alive today has personal experience of slavery.

So? There are people alive who have personal experience of the repercussions of slavery. There are people being born this moment who will likely experience the repercussions of slavery (since there doesn't seem to be enough will to even acknowledge it, let alone address it).

We're saying that the injustice that started with slavery still exists today and you keep responding by saying "But slavery is over!" That's what's so frustrating about this conversation. How does your point, which you keep hammering on, in any way mitigate the still existing injustice?

 

[kai]

So? There are people alive who have personal experience of the repercussions of slavery. There are people being born this moment who will likely experience the repercussions of slavery (since there doesn't seem to be enough will to even acknowledge it, let alone address it).

well that somewhat depends on what you are saying the repercussions of slavery are doesnt it? being born in the USA is an obvious one, but i am getting the impression that you think racism is the child of slavery when its the otherway round.

We're saying that the injustice that started with slavery still exists today and you keep responding by saying "But slavery is over!" That's what's so frustrating about this conversation. How does your point, which you keep hammering on, in any way mitigate the still existing injustice?

perhaps i am not getting my point across in the proper fashion ,

Look racism didnt start with american slavery , Its not there because of slavery, its always been there, and so has slavery for thousands of years it was the norm in almost all civilisations ,

my point is that it doesnt mitigate racism, racism would be there in spite of it.

 

[lilithu]

perhaps i am not getting my point across in the proper fashion ,

Look racism didnt start with american slavery , Its not there because of slavery, its always been there, and so has slavery for thousands of years it was the norm in almost all civilisations ,

my point is that it doesnt mitigate racism, racism would be there in spite of it.

Actually, several historians argue that racism did start with slavery. There has always been prejudice, no argument. But there has not always been prejudice and unequal treatment based on race. And while slavery was the norm in many civilizations for thousands of years, it was not the norm for it to be based on skin tone, nor was it the norm for it to be inherited. Slaves were usually people of another tribe or city who had been conquered who were then forced into indentured servitude. Even if they spent the rest of their lives in that position, their children would not be considered slaves.

Slavery in the colonies started off as indentured servitude, consisting of both blacks and whites. But the agrarian economics required a continual supply of cheap/free labor. And when there was revolt amongst the indentured servants - both black and white - it threatened to destabilize the wealth of the landowners. So they instituted the practice of punishing the blacks harsher than the whites. In making this distinction based on "race" the ruling class was able to pit people of the indentured class against each each other, thereby assuring that they could not form an organized revolt.

So in fact, the concept of race is a relatively modern concept, created to keep lower classes - of all colors - oppressed. Before that, people identified by their ethnicities. Which kind of brings us back to the OP.

 

[kai]

Actually, several historians argue that racism did start with slavery. There has always been prejudice, no argument. But there has not always been prejudice and unequal treatment based on race. And while slavery was the norm in many civilizations for thousands of years, it was not the norm for it to be based on skin tone, nor was it the norm for it to be inherited. Slaves were usually people of another tribe or city who had been conquered who were then forced into indentured servitude. Even if they spent the rest of their lives in that position, their children would not be considered slaves.

Slavery in the colonies started off as indentured servitude, consisting of both blacks and whites. But the agrarian economics required a continual supply of cheap/free labor. And when there was revolt amongst the indentured servants - both black and white - it threatened to destabilize the wealth of the landowners. So they instituted the practice of punishing the blacks harsher than the whites. In making this distinction based on "race" the ruling class was able to pit people of the indentured class against each each other, thereby assuring that they could not form an organized revolt.

So in fact, the concept of race is a relatively modern concept, created to keep lower classes - of all colors - oppressed. Before that, people identified by their ethnicities. Which kind of brings us back to the OP.

yes i am aware of that theory , of course as modern peoples we are aware of the world as a whole, whereas to euripidies who declared all non-Greeks slaves by birth, fit for nothing but obedience. the world was a smaller place but still party to genocide from time to time.
Leviticus
25:45 Also you may buy slaves from the children of the foreigners who reside with you, and from their families that are with you, whom they have fathered in your land, they may become your property.
25:46 You may give them as inheritance to your children after you to possess as property. You may enslave them perpetually. However, as for your brothers the Israelites, no man may rule over his brother harshly.

but maybe your right and i am wrong and thats not racism. but i think it was always there it may have culminated to the extreme in the plantations and the industrial age but i think its roots are way back, the treatment of slaves can even be foundin the codes of hammurabi

as you said back tothe OP

 

[zoe and vic]

What exactly do you mean by saying that Dr. King was "killed by His own"?

Make that his own, sorry about that. I got caught in the middle of a messianic thought and the spirit of prophecy.

My grandmother is about 98 years old. She has seen the entire world transform in 100 years, especially America. Slavery didn't end... it just changed form. Try not doing what Massa IRS tells you to do and see if you don't get a lashing. The IRS uses our government like a mob to enforce adherence to a code that is not even upheld by our laws.

And some would propose that we are not under the power of wicked men.

 

[The Seeker]

Many white people have asked me whether I liked to be called "black" or "African American". I usually respond that I prefer to be called by my first name. Being a black man, I find the idea of being called an African-American silly. There are white people, such as Teresa Heinz Kerry, who are African-American because she was born in South Africa, but is now an American citizen. So, the idea of referring to black people as African Americans makes no sense to me. I also don't like to be called "black". For one thing, I am brown, not black. I personally don't know of anyone that is so dark that they would be considered black. All the black/white race thing does is cause division in our society. If you were born in this country, you're an American, plain and simple.