Afterlife

[eagles]

Ok I made this entire post once and when I hit the post key it was gone ?

Here goes gain .

I have been reading a lot of Gnostic books and sites . I like much of what I have read and most of it makes a lot more sense to me than the standard Christian Dogma I was brought up with . However just like the old Gnostics asked questions about what they were being told , I have a question about what I am reading . I am also drawn more to the so called Christian Gnostic branches. I see the mythology involving beings that have human like characteristics and or at least a personality . We have the Gnostic Jesus , Sophia with red hair , angles that look human , even the so called evil half maker has the head of a lion . The story we need to have this inner knowledge , the real message of Jesus sounds good . It goes south for me when the aspect of the after life is spoken about. So the story goes this part of the "real " God which now seems to be a non personal , somthing , like an energy bank, the Plemora has lost some of its sparks . which are trapped on earth in the physical body made by the half maker . If we forget about US, the physical parts etc we will get Gnosis and be rewarded when we die by that spark going home , back to the Plemora WHERE IT SEEMS WE CEASE TO EXIST !!All of a sudden we are not talking about human like beings but some kind of , energy only . Hmmm . Now call me skeptical BUT I could make a case that this Plemora is the REAL evil god just wanting to vampire like , suck all the sparks out of humanity back to it , making it stronger WHILE WE LOOSE US , OUR PERSONALITY GOES POOF , IT GETS ITS LOST SPARKS BACK. Now if the story of the Plemora would have been somthing like , we get to go to another world , just like this one , minus he pain and death , be with loved ones etc it would sound like somthing to strive for. Is anyone REALLY excited to cease to exist but in some energy field as part of some whole ? If I was given a choice to return to earth with all of its faults and good parts and live a life , more lives trying to be better each time OR cease to be ME and give back my life force to some Plemora I OPT OUT OF THAT DEAL . To me it is like I made a robot and accidently it came to life , using some of my force . It has a life where it can break down , needs fixing etc but also has enjoyable times . I want my force back so I convince the robot it is faulty , it needs to realize all thAt counts is that life force and IF I get it to let go of the robot structure , that life force rushes back to me and the robot and its life is GONE, BUT WHO CARES THE PLEMORA IS STRONGER . Sounds lie an evil plot to me . So what do others think , does floating in this plemora sound good . Sounds like a drug induced comma to me . OR is there other Gnostic views on the Plemora more human ? I was talking with a few Christian Gnostic priests on line and BOTH stopped talkiong and refused to reply when I possed this question to them .

 

[eagles]

I see 25 people read this but so far no response . Have I hit on the major flaw of this belief system that seems to expose the after life as nothing more than a way for some thing to get our life force back while we vanish ? I want to believe somthing else but so far not a single good argument from anyone I have asked , anywhere . I am disapointed as I thought I found a good belief system until I saw this part .If religion is not to show us how to SURVIVE death , intact , Who needs it ? I sure do not want to be part of a con job to steal my life force and make me vanish , at least knowingly. At first I thought the message was that Jesus really came to earth to teach us how to live SO WE SURVIVED DEATH . I thought his resurection was a message if you live right YOU WILL NOT REALLY DIE . This made sense much more than the orriginal sin story . But here he seems to be portrayed as a con man helping us just let go of anything that keeps the plemora from getting back its property .Is there another version ?

 

[kylixguru]

I would be happy to address your questions but I am not qualified to do so here.
Perhaps you could request to have this thread moved to an area for general discussion?

 

[eagles]

Sorry I do not know how to do that and why are qaulifications needed to post a reply ? Is it some rule of this list I am unaware of ? If not please post your reply

 

[kylixguru]

Sorry I do not know how to do that and why are qaulifications needed to post a reply ? Is it some rule of this list I am unaware of ? If not please post your reply

The forums in blue are special areas where people of that specific religious group may field questions. If you are not a member of that religious group, you may only field questions.

I do not consider myself a Gnostic so I am not qualified to address your questions here.

Perhaps you could just leave this thread here and start a new one written to a wider audience for general discussion?

 

[eagles]

Thank you buT I need to know the answer from Gnostics , who believe and study this . It seems they are not willing to talk about this aspect , here or anywhere else I have asked . Will keep hoping a Gnostic expert will engage in this dialog . Since the Gnosis is a progresion of understanding , to me this needs some speculation . Just as the God of the first Testament seems angry and cruel this one seems manipulative and , well a con artist getting his sparks back AND THROWING THE US PART AWAY .Maybe there is a way to learn to recieve Gnosis and NOT go back to the spare parts bin by aserting WHO you are , realizig this here and when you die and then KNOWING WHAT TO DO TO AVOID GOING POOF , THAT IS THE GNOSIS I WANT .

 

[Sylvan]

I don't consider myself a gnostic but do consider a lot of gnostic literature to be legitimately inspired. What you have said here is very interesting to me, and outlines my basic problem with most understandings of various gnostic premises. This being the moral valence given the story. I don't not think the Demiurge is "evil" or the Plemora is "good". For vast cosmic forces responsible for the creation of matter and soul I doubt such limited terms are usefully descriptive.

My personal feeling on the matter is that the Plemora either had to split apart and create the physical universe and the souls of conscious beings either as some kind of unconscious process natural to itself, or as a deliberate act in order to experience itself individuated in the consciousness of its creations.

This also reminds me of some understandings related to Buddhism. It is my understanding that Gnostics were involved in techniques of trance-induction and meditation, perhaps even coming west from India. As meditation takes one closer to a "non-dual" form of perception you are simultaneously pulled away from a sense of individual consciousness. Here is the meaning of the mystery of the Boddisatva, who has achieved liberation from the wheel of life and is free to return to the Plemora if you will, but chooses to stay behind in this world to illuminate others upon this path. While others find selflessness in their 'sacrifice' there is a certain level of selfishness as well, for they achieve a sort of spiritual permanence as "Saints" beyond the death of their body.

This also indicates that sorrow and pain are not only the inevitable condition of conscious beings but in fact experiencing those (along with the joy and pleasure that comes with them) is the entire "purpose" of our creation. Therefore I think of the gnostic worldview and afterlife that there is no heavy need to escape to the "Plemora" but that one can.. and that certain people simply are given to do so after exhausting their prima materia in successive incarnations. If you are not ready to do so, or have some fear of losing that individual consciousness, then you won't be ready to go there. Its that simple.

To take this further, I am increasingly of the opinion that consciousness evolves much faster than our physical bodies. Therefore modern people are simply unable to read gnostic scripture as the gnostics did, as we experience our consciousness differently. In gnosticism I see a kind of avant-guard theological movement, similar to surrealism in art, which provided a social platform to a large variety of people to experiment with senses of self and the sacred. In the centuries since Gnostics were around other spiritual technologies have evolved which are increasingly able to give ourselves more sophisticated 'vehicles', which you appear so desperate to develop. But this is speculative (as is everything stated above) and a result of my own personal gnosis.

tl;dr: As the Plemora comes to devour you like Cthluhu with his infinite multi-dimensional genital-tipped tentacles, mouths, and eyes like some anime nightmare... Don't worry..its just its way of saying "Welcome Home".

 

[eagles]

Thank you , OR it realy is evil or at least completly selfish . I am just not sold that the more advanced a person becomes the less one needs to BE and there is ANY benifet to be absorbed into the void .It seems akin to spiritual, or if you will complete suicide . The part that is hard to understand as well as the Gnostic story is told as if it is being unfolded by thinking , sentient , beings , good and bad or at least incompetant but then WE are told the best thing for us is to NOT BE , be absorbed ? If there are spiritual truths I am not sure they evolve but one thing is for sure most of the models we are asked to believe in are based on knowledge obtained a long time ago and supposedly are ever lasting . Where did that last sentence you quoted come from , yikes , THAT is what my spidy senses tell me it is and if Gnosis is about self realizations maybe I am not the only one to have had THIS Gnosis .

 

[Sylvan]

I am not sure that something that is literally undifferentiated everything could be anything but 'selfish'. It just doesn't 'care'.

I am just not sold that the more advanced a person becomes the less one needs to BE and there is ANY benifet to be absorbed into the void .It seems akin to spiritual, or if you will complete suicide . The part that is hard to understand as well as the Gnostic story is told as if it is being unfolded by thinking , sentient , beings , good and bad or at least incompetant but then WE are told the best thing for us is to NOT BE , be absorbed?

I suggest trying a few years of serious meditation practice and maybe you might lose some of your fear of this. Regarding the gnostic story as I said they are metaphors. And consider that perhaps your perception of the horror of dissolution is an illusion generated by the Demiurgic structure of your own consciousness.

maybe I am not the only one to have had THIS Gnosis.

You certainly aren't. In many modern circles the Kabbalistic concept of the Qippoth are held to be the 'horrifying' face of the divine. If one accepts that there is a creator, then that creator created all beauty and all horror. Some feel they must unite with all of those horrifying forms and visions in order to come out "the other side of the tree". Some feel those people are crazy. People certainly thought that about the historical gnostics.

 

[eagles]

Have been teaching an Asian Martial art for decades , as well as meditation . Been doing that for about 40 years . Studied the Kabbala as well and the darknes that you are refering to , the abyss is somthing it is said all cross and come out the other side with insight . This is mine . My insight is many are DECIEVED into believing they need to cease to be and give over the life spark to some vague ALL . While we are all connected I do not believe a line of learning is of any value that leads to nothing .There ARE meditave practices that TEACH one HOW to survive death and NOT go to the spare parts bin which I allso learned , but am looking for more information on this . My Gnosis is Jesus and others came to show us DEATH FOR US WAS NOT NECESSARY .Jesus came back as HIM, in form and being . THAT is the goal THAT knowledge is what was hidden . The mases are told , go numb , let yourself be absorbed I counter THAT IS THE REAL DEMIURGE. One can face it all BUT still hold on to US. If anyone prefers a comatose bliss , they can have it . I am searching for knowledge on how to NOT be food for the Plemora .

 

[Sylvan]

Ah well you're in a good position for this then. In Peter Carroll's Liber Chaos there are three possible methods for doing this. The White Rite, The Red Rite, and the Black Rite.

 

[eagles]

I have that book , in storage at the moment . Have not read it in years , must take another look .

 

[nazz]

Hi Eagles. I'm new to this forum, just joined. I got interested in Gnosticism a few years back.

First off, I need to correct something. The word is PLEROMA, not Plemora. It means "Fullness" in the Greek.

Now as to your question this is also something I have struggled with off and on during differnet phases of my own spiritual journey which has included forays into various forms of mysticism. I began studying Eastern religion as a teen (I'm now in my fifties). I had the same sense of apprehension contemplating being absorbed into Brahman. I wanted instead some kind of eternal perfect life where I stayed as me and God stayed as God.

Later on in life I got into Sufism and ran into the same idea. Sufis have a term fana meaning "annihilation" of the ego in God, followed by baqa, eternal subsistence in the Being of God. So again, a similar idea.

One Sufi explanation I heard is that it is not so much that the drop (individual consciousness) is absorbed by the ocean (universal consciousness) but rather that the ocean enters the drop.

I think the reason we feel disconcerted and apprehensive about all this is that we fear the destruction of our limited and individual ego. We don't want to be assimilated by the Borg. But I think it may just be a matter of looking at it from the wrong perspective. Rather we can see it as giving up this limited (and painful) existence in exchange for becoming part of something greater, something unlimited and perfect.

One final thought. Our desire to hang on to our individual egos is really futile as we are in a constant state of flux anyway. We are not the same person we were in the past nor will we be the same person in the future. We are constantly changing and hopefully evolving.

Hope this helps.

 

[eagles]

Thank you for the reply . In studying many near death experiences and reading the study a few psychics have done on their experiences with people who have passed over , the absorption concept does not seem to apply UNLESS YOU BELIEVE IT DOES . Then you may create for yourself this non existent existence. I hope to evolve and change by being able to review my past but not be absorbed into a nothingness . Now if the definition is the I becomes CONNECTED through knowledge that is different . So if I go to college I leave more educated but not obliterated into some computer bank of knowledge " for the common good " which sounds like a sales pitch to get my spark than I buy it but for me , I am doing what I can to obtain Gnosis while remaining ME . My view is the real evil wants the disolution of the self for its own juice . The real knowledge raises you above this , YOU survive death just as Jesus showed was possible when he returned from the dead as HIM . This I believe was the REAL message of Jesus and largely ignored , even by so called Gnostic Christian sects .

 

[nazz]

Thank you for the reply . In studying many near death experiences and reading the study a few psychics have done on their experiences with people who have passed over , the absorption concept does not seem to apply UNLESS YOU BELIEVE IT DOES . Then you may create for yourself this non existent existence. I hope to evolve and change by being able to review my past but not be absorbed into a nothingness . Now if the definition is the I becomes CONNECTED through knowledge that is different . So if I go to college I leave more educated but not obliterated into some computer bank of knowledge " for the common good " which sounds like a sales pitch to get my spark than I buy it but for me , I am doing what I can to obtain Gnosis while remaining ME . My view is the real evil wants the disolution of the self for its own juice . The real knowledge raises you above this , YOU survive death just as Jesus showed was possible when he returned from the dead as HIM . This I believe was the REAL message of Jesus and largely ignored , even by so called Gnostic Christian sects .

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I guess I am not sure why you think of this process as becoming "nothingness". To me, it seems the opposite: becoming a part of the All.

 

[nazz]

Some additional thoughts...

It strikes me that what you are talking about might just be the explanation as to why things are as they are now: a multiplicity of beings with individual mind and wills. All flowing from the desire to be separate, independent. The problem of course is when that situation exists conflict is inevitable. From the Gnostic viewpoint we see that conflict expressed in the Universe in which we dwell.

A major concept in the Abrahamic faiths is the surrender of one's will to the will of God. That is not far removed from what we are ultimately discussing here. Not my will but thine be done.

You mentioned Jesus. I happen to think that when Jesus ascended to God he was "reabsorbed" into the Godhead. Yet he is still Jesus. He didn't lose that individuality by returning to becoming part of the Whole.

I don't spend much time worrying over this. I am on a path that I believe leads toward God. I have a basic trust that it is a good path with a good destination. Whatever that ultimate destination is I trust that it will be somewhere I will truly want to be.

Unlike the proverbial Borg resistance is NOT futile. No one is ever forced to be a part of something they do not wish to be a part.

Perhaps it is all part of an endless cycle. Union, separation, reunion, reseparation, and so on.

 

[Shiranui117]

Some additional thoughts...

It strikes me that what you are talking about might just be the explanation as to why things are as they are now: a multiplicity of beings with individual mind and wills. All flowing from the desire to be separate, independent. The problem of course is when that situation exists conflict is inevitable. From the Gnostic viewpoint we see that conflict expressed in the Universe in which we dwell.

A major concept in the Abrahamic faiths is the surrender of one's will to the will of God. That is not far removed from what we are ultimately discussing here. Not my will but thine be done.

You mentioned Jesus. I happen to think that when Jesus ascended to God he was "reabsorbed" into the Godhead. Yet he is still Jesus. He didn't lose that individuality by returning to becoming part of the Whole.

I don't spend much time worrying over this. I am on a path that I believe leads toward God. I have a basic trust that it is a good path with a good destination. Whatever that ultimate destination is I trust that it will be somewhere I will truly want to be.

Unlike the proverbial Borg resistance is NOT futile. No one is ever forced to be a part of something they do not wish to be a part.

Perhaps it is all part of an endless cycle. Union, separation, reunion, reseparation, and so on.

Would you say, then, that even though we are absorbed into the Pleroma and become one with it, we do so as Jesus is one with God (see especially John 17:21-23 here), and this means that we still remain distinct persons in our own right, while at the same time being fully one with God?

 

[nazz]

Would you say, then, that even though we are absorbed into the Pleroma and become one with it, we do so as Jesus is one with God (see especially John 17:21-23 here), and this means that we still remain distinct persons in our own right, while at the same time being fully one with God?

Not having experienced that in its fullest sense I can't answer that with any authority but yes, that makes sense to me. I don't know why it would be any different for us than it would be for him.

I have had a sense, a partial limited glimpse, of what union with God means through spiritual practice. I felt a part of a larger whole but at the same time I remained who I was.

Try to imagine what it might be like to merge your consciousness with that of another being. The result would be one consciousness but there would still be the sense of "I" behind it. So I don't think that "I-ness" ever goes away.

 

[Revoltingest]

Btw, greetings, Nazz!

 

[nazz]

Btw, greetings, Nazz!

Thank You! I am looking forward to participating here!