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against intelligent creator?

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I have no idea what your conduct is. If some of it is a sin according to God, and if you accept there is a penalty for sin, it would be prudent to change that type of conduct.

It's kinda my point, mate...
You freely say that most atheists want to deny God, rather than honestly lack belief. Further, you intimate this is because they'd need to change their sinful behaviour if God was real.

So here I am. An honest to goodness atheist.

1) What behaviour would I change if God existed.
2) More importantly, why would I change it? Why would God's existence make me change this apparently sinful behaviour?
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
It's kinda my point, mate...
You freely say that most atheists want to deny God, rather than honestly lack belief. Further, you intimate this is because they'd need to change their sinful behaviour if God was real.

I have said or intimated no such thing. I made a simple statement of what I believe. You are reading something into it because you want to.

So here I am. An honest to goodness atheist.

Are you bragging or complaining?

1) What behaviour would I change if God existed.
2) More importantly, why would I change it? Why would God's existence make me change this apparently sinful behaviour?

I have already answered those questions.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I have said or intimated no such thing. I made a simple statement of what I believe. You are reading something into it because you want to.

What you believe is about a group I belong to. From where I sit, as a member of said group, it's a complete straw man.

Are you bragging or complaining?

Neither, but at times the parody-style characterizations of 'what atheists are' either cause frustration or a little dark humour.

I have already answered those questions.

Not that I'm aware of, you havent. Humour me on the second. Why do I change by behaviour if God is real?
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
What you believe is about a group I belong to. From where I sit, as a member of said group, it's a complete straw man.
When you play spiritual musical chairs, when the music stops pray the one left is the right one and you get it.

]Neither, but at times the parody-style characterizations of 'what atheists are' either cause frustration or a little dark humour.

The only thing I know about atheism is that don't think their is any evidence for the existence of God. I know they are wrong---In the Beginning God....The heavens are telling of the glory of God.

Not that I'm aware of, you havent. Humour me on the second. Why do I change by behaviour if God is real?

I have already answered that question.
 
why atheists attack on the idea of an intelligent creator? isn't it possible that an intelligent creator might exist? most atheists act like this is absurd.

A scientific worldview does not dismiss any possibility. However, an intelligent creator would bring a lot more questions than it would answer, and it furthermore provides no real way to test it. People who assume the existence of intelligent creator must either ignore many kinds of evidence or else they have to create tautological assertions such that God put fossils in the ground to make it look like there was evolution and that God wasn't actually mediating, which only raises new questions, such as why God would have motive for deceiving people. The theory of natural selection, on the other hand, derives from observation of the natural world, and every assertion is open to test.

I'll add that an atheist needn't exclude the possibility of God, they just refuse to believe in provided concepts of God because they find them insufficient, contradictory, incomplete and generally a simplification of and divergence from observations of the world and universe. Most theists on the other hand, when they talk of belief in God actually mean a belief in a certain preconceived concept of God according to the premises of his or her religious tradition. Implied in this is lack of openness not only to non-existence of God, but to a God different than the concept. God can't be anything except what they believe. Because true atheists don't presume God is one thing and not another, I always say they are far more open to the possibility of God than believers.
 
One of the unasked questions in such debates is what the purpose of that design might be. If there is an Intelligent Designer, what was his purpose in creating the design?

A second question would be are we truly qualified to review that design? I designed software during part of my IT career but my non-techy wife would not have the background to evaluate whether the design was a good one or not.

The philosopher Alfred North Whitehead basically said the same thing, in that what we know is insignificant in relation what we don't know and it is furthermore contingent upon it. Which implies that what we don't know accounts for everything -- something which is coming home to us in the way that with all our supposed certainty we are making a royal mess of things on this planet.
 
I'm not saying it's absurd. I'd just like some evidence before accepting a possible explanation. Otherwise natural law is capable of explaining the design of the universe.

We can test and verify natural laws. My bias is only for what we can test and verify as an explanation.

If it is "Long Root Ale" that you are talking about, there is a possibility that beer just as well might save the world.
 
I don't think it's the idea that an intelligent creator might exist, but the idea that the creator is the way he is. Why would an intelligent creator approve mass killings when everyone is his children that he cares about? Why would an intelligent creator test the faithful in such sadistic ways? Why would an intelligent creator design a perfect world when part of that has to do with traumatic punishments? What's so intelligent about this backwards logic?
That's what most atheists have a problem with. And the fact a huge enlightened white-haired bearded man ruling the sky isn't very convincing to some.

Good point, that is loading a lot onto him (or her or both or more). However, we humans call ourselves intelligent -- twice over (sapiens sapiens) -- and that certainly hasn't stopped us from doing all these mass killings, not just of humans but of a major portion of other species on this planet. So if our concept of "intelligence" is how we measure the creator, it is not a very high bar at all, even a bit insulting. For one thing, creating humans seems a pretty stupid thing after you've made a beautiful world like this, which is to say when God kicked humans out of the Garden he didn't kick them far enough (unless it was from another planet to this one).
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
A scientific worldview does not dismiss any possibility. However, an intelligent creator would bring a lot more questions than it would answer,

The exact reason many rejected the primeval atom and quantum physics at first. Which both asked a vast amount of new questions- the simplest explanation is certainly always the most tempting, but reality has shown little regard for Occams' razor so far! new questions are nothing to shirk from

and it furthermore provides no real way to test it.

debatable, but multiverses, string theory, M Theory, are about as inherently beyond investigation as it is possible to get, they all get a waiver on this?

People who assume the existence of intelligent creator must either ignore many kinds of evidence or else they have to create tautological assertions such that God put fossils in the ground to make it look like there was evolution and that God wasn't actually mediating, which only raises new questions, such as why God would have motive for deceiving people.

speak for yourself! God gave you the free will to be wrong. Most of us do not believe in Darwinian unguided evolution, only 19% in the U.S. according to Gallup and much lower many other places.

I'll add that an atheist needn't exclude the possibility of God,



If you see 'HELP' written on an island beach in rocks, do you conclude that the random action of the waves did it? Only if you can utterly rule out any involvement of creative intelligence- to a practically impossible degree.

So too for naturalistic universe creating mechanisms. They must exclude God from the playing field entirely, to be allowed to accidentally score the goal for their team eventually..

But the opposite is not true, you can have the waves, you can have the multiverses, creative intelligence is still the least improbable explanation where merely allowed the slightest possibility of existing
 
The exact reason many rejected the primeval atom and quantum physics at first. Which both asked a vast amount of new questions- the simplest explanation is certainly always the most tempting, but reality has shown little regard for Occams' razor so far! new questions are nothing to shirk from

The new questions I referred to were in that the idea of intelligent creator deviates from existing observations, data and theory. During the medieval period rational thought into the question of intelligent creator was in fact highly developed, so much so that the development of rational thinking extended beyond that of science. But regarding the knowledge of the natural world medieval thought was stymied because it worked from flawed assumptions and denied the reality of experience. For this reason, and because rational thought was also used as means of repression of early practitioners of the scientific method, science threw out the baby with the bath water by denying rational thought as a valid path to knowledge in favor of experience, or empiricism. As a result it has made it difficult for science to identify flawed premises that it inherited from both classical and medieval thought and new ones that it has inserted from its own historical context. One, perhaps fatal flaw for humanity, is prophetic Judeo-Christianity's separation of the world from the deity, which reappeared within science as a separation of humans from nature. This is allowing science to participate in an unprecedented destruction of the Ecosphere, you could say Eden. The "primeval atom" as you call it was an assumption developed three thousand years ago in Greek thought. It was grasped as a basis for science, not rejected, as was the case of much of classical thinking, which has been subsequently discarded or modified and elaborated as a result of experimental observations.
debatable, but multiverses, string theory, M Theory, are about as inherently beyond investigation as it is possible to get, they all get a waiver on this?

Quantum mechanics sought to explain paradoxes in our scientific understanding resulting from observation of particles and energy. It was proposed because the previous explanations did not work any longer, not because the old explanations were too simple. In fact, to have continued to use to use older "simpler" theories to explain the motions and energies of both subatomic particles and of light would have required much more complex formulations, like the attempt to explain deviations of movements of planets while retaining a theory of an earth-centered solar system. Nature grows more complex when we transcend into higher or new levels of organization, but the underlying assumptions and driving forces that were laid down at the beginning of time are simple: laws of thermodynamics, strong and weak forces, wave mechanics, etc. The idea of intelligent creator in contrast starts with a complex assumption, which itself is not explained, to brush aside the complexity of the world.

Multiverses, string theory, etc., are proposed as ways of understanding paradoxes in observations and existing theory based on simple laws and principles underlying scientific thought. Their complexity derives from being an attempt to understand the complex phenomena that extend from these simple principles. Using older, simpler explanations would have required much more complex formulations, like those required by hanging onto an earth-centered universe. I disagree that they are beyond investigation. They rather are the path taken to provide a means of investigation, which people are obviously doing. Whether their practitioners have transcended the current version of an earth-centered universe into new understanding or not, that is yet in question, but that is the nature for all hypotheses. They are put out there to see if they lead to something other than a dead end. And even dead ends, which are an element of every fruitful inquiry, facilitate seeking new paths.

I encourage you to try to correct me if you disagree, but so far I have seen nowhere any attempt to formulate any theory of the complexity of the universe or of nature proposed by the promoters of the concept of intelligent creator. If there is a paradox for them, it is not in the science, which they misrepresent and obfuscate rather than try to understand, but in the problem of the role they give to their concept of God (which I don't think they really care about anyway) and the crisis in the authority that they derive from it and the threat that this brings to their worldly ambitions (which I think in fact is the problem for them). From everything I know about Jesus, he would have been totally cool with the theory of natural selection, given the openness of his mind. He sought to release people from the dogmas of their religion while expanding its truths. Above all he sought to overcome the separation of the world from God through creation of a praxis, or way of living in and engaging with the world, expressed for example in Albert Schweitzer's maxim he derived from Jesus, "Come do thou as I" (or however he put it). The religion that was made of this, particularly when it was made into state religion of the Roman empire, promoted just the opposite. Many of the subsequent strains that arose within or split from the Roman "Universal" Church were, often fruitful, attempts to to confront this slip backwards -- take as recent example Liberation Theology in the last part of the previous century, and the Christian theologian John Cobb's "Process Theory" of the present century. Science arose similarly from within the same prophetic tradition, as I alluded to above, and in certain essential ways it continues within it. In terms of the premise which Jesus sought to transcend, of overcoming the separation of humans from the divine now in the form of humans from, over and against nature, more so than it might wish to admit.
 
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I already responded to your two previous points in a posting which will probably now follow this one. Now I respond to the last two points

If you see 'HELP' written on an island beach in rocks, do you conclude that the random action of the waves did it? Only if you can utterly rule out any involvement of creative intelligence- to a practically impossible degree.

That is one of the examples of the flawed logic that the intelligent design proponents always throw up. Being a person who is literate and living in human communities, why would I assume that the word help was a result of random action of waves, any more than, say, a house on a lonely seashore? There is a better example of this in the form of a raised piece of sea floor known as “Adams Bridge” connecting Sri Lanka to India which is easily observed from outer space. There is a Hindu epic similar to Homer’s Illiad among the Hindu religious texts which has a story in which a monkey god, named Hanuman, created a bridge from India to Sri Lanka to allow the armies of the hero, Ram, to cross over and defeat the Lankan king, Ravana to win back his kidnapped wife Sita. Practitioners of Hindu fundamentalism, which is becoming popular in a parallel manner to Christian fundamentalism in the U.S., say that this raised land is the remains of Hanuman’s bridge because they can't conceive that the random action of waves could create something so consistent with their myth. Except that you find it to be a regular feature connecting many islands to their mainlands and scientific analysis has found that it is due regular wave action, not gods or random forces, that occurs in a regular manner in similar situations of wind and current between islands and mainlands. The upshot is that if you see something happening in a patterned and regular way, then you first look for an explanation in the regular forces at work.

As I noted above and have repeated in other forums here so often, diverse forms of life that emerge through natural selection do no arise randomly. They are determined by a combination of simple mechanisms listed above, driven by the Laws of Thermodynamics, and they involve molecular and particle theory among other basic elements and forces of science. This claim is simply a misrepresentation made to deceive people who have have no understanding of the the theory despite its simplicity.

The only random element is the mutations which provide the raw materials, so to speak, which under normal circumstances form new combinations of nucleotides that produce new enzymes allowing for modified and new structures and processes. When these give advantage, the organism having it will over time will produce more offspring and the proportion of population having it will grow in relation to those who don't. More often than not mutation won't be viable and the changed organism won't survive to reproduce more and the population won’t change. That in the most simple terms is at the heart of natural selection.

Mutations must be random because what changes will be advantageous cannot be anticipated beforehand and attempts to change imposed from outside will more likely be maladaptive. For this reason the nucleus of the cells of multicellular organisms only allow information to go out of the nucleus not into it. This is evident in domesticated animals and plants in which humans did their own selection, which are only able to flourish with the input of human energy to make a protective that removes competing plants and animals and supplies nourishment and protection. Industrialized agriculture represents its most extreme form, requiring much more energy derived from fossil fuels to grow and harvest the plants than obtained from them. If humans stopped the inputs their domesticates would soon die or be bred out of existence. Again, the process of the selection of these mutations is anything but random, determined by what advantage can be grabbed by it. Over the long term divergences and new organisms arise.

The irony is that although intelligent design picked on it for being random, mutations as we understand them are not essential to Darwin's theory. DNA had not yet been discovered, and all Darwin knew was that new features, which were at that time called "monstrosities," would appear in organisms allowing them to subsequently be selected if they gave advantage. He did not even understand the mechanism that they could persist over generations. Darwin had attempted to understand it by breeding pigeons, but the features of pigeons are determined by multiple combinations of genes, multiple chromosomes, and other variables, which prevented Darwin from isolating the the mechanism. Darwin's contemporary, Gregor Mendel, had discovered the mechanism by breeding peas, which by luck don't have such variables and did allow him to isolate the process. Unfortunately when Mendel presented his results to the academy of scientists, nobody understood him and his paper disappeared until the process was rediscovered at the beginning of the 20th century. I think later Mendel tried to reproduce his observations using something like switch grass, which like Darwin's pigeons had too many variables and Mendel returned to focusing on the duties of a monk.

But the opposite is not true, you can have the waves, you can have the multiverses, creative intelligence is still the least improbable explanation where merely allowed the slightest possibility of existing

Here I disagree. Multiverses and worm holes are the simplest explanations for the inconsistencies that have emerged between our our theory and observations. They seem complex because of the complexity of the elements they deal with, basically a math that I don't understand. But the hypotheses are developed by extension of simple principles. Natural selection in contrast is an extremely simple theory with basically five or six essential elements, allowing, in Darwin's words, "from so simple a beginning" the creation of all the complexity of life and moreover the complexity of ecosystems of the planet and the planet itself as a living entity, called by the ecologist J. Stan Rowe, "God incarnate." The result is complex due to the multiplicity of different elements and interactions it created, but the mechanisms for creating this multiplicity is simple. Because of its simplicity it does not require an intelligent being.
 
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