Thank you for reading my post. I write long post so I can tell when someone isn't reading it in full.
Every born again Christians know for sure that God does exist. Our proof is internal. Several things convince me. First a creation needs a Creator. Some of the language in the Bible is beyond man's ability to originate: to gain your life you must lose it---to be strong you must become weak---love your enemies and do good to those who hate you---although He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.
How I experienced god is both external and internal (to compare). For example, although a lot of protestants cannot stand Catholicism, without looking at it from a pagan view, here is what I experienced.
When you believe in god (for me god is a spirit not christ himself), you experience and become the body of like-believers. It's not supernatural but a interconnection or, some say love, that binds all people of like-minds together. The worship is built on bringing the body of christ present (more than one here I am) in order to celebrate the nature of his spirit which is
a reflection of the experience and nature of god. That is communion.
Physically and traditionally, communion is between people. Jesus did not have a metaphysical view of salvation. He was actually lived, actually died, and was actually resurrected back to christ as spirit. So the traditions and physical nature of the body brings people to christ just as the commitment of saying I Do brings two people together in matrimony. It isn't an abstract relationship. It is a physical one.
When I experienced baptism, it was not just internal. I don't understand separating internal from external. When you are washed with water, you are physically cleaning yourself from dirt of the flesh. This also mirrors each other in cleanings oneself from the dirt of the spirit. Thereby, in Catholicism, no one can just "not be christian anymore." It's an eternal relationship with god.
When you confess, you go to repentance and confess to god. The priest is an authority of the church (lower c) but not of the Church (body of christ). So, he hears confessions but he does not forgive. Only god, spirit, forgives in christian faith. So repentance is important to get to baptism. This physical and traditional means of repentance is important to spiritual growth.
The Eucharist or communion is not mystical as many Othorodox Catholics say. It is actually a communal meal that within it (blood/sacrifice bread/life) of christ brings people together in like worship. We commune of actual food and by that as the Lord's Super, we commune in the spirit of christ. The spirit of christ is the body. The body is the people.
To celebrate in one body through these sacred acts (sacraments) is a tradition. Without these sacraments there is no god. Without the body coming together, god does not exist.
He exist when more than one person comes together. He cannot exist outside of that unless you are saying he is like casper the ghost floating around finding people to enter and denying people he calls children.
That makes no sense.
Also, southerners believe differently than northerners. In Catholicism, we
live the bible. Studying the bible and seeing it as an idol is find for some but actually living the bible makes christ, his spirit-the body-the service to others-more alive than studying it and finding inner solace without outer traditions (actions passed down through generation) to practice it.
I disagree it is logic. It is illogical to believe our universe is an accident or eternal.
I never said it was an accident. The analogy or the example I made, I tried to take religion out so you can see the logic in what I'm saying. If you understand the logic, perfect. If you don't, that makes me more inquisitive because a lot of people get it just some people don't and it's elementary knowledge.
No true. My experiences has everything with God revealing Himself to me. When I was in college I made a vow that if I ever graduated, I would never read another book. I hate to read and i hat to study even more. Well I graduated and I kept that vow for over 20 ears.
I can't really reply to that. When I read the bible, I fell further away from christ. When I'm in the church and live the bible, I'm pulled back to living spirit of christ through the body of people making him present. It's a totally different viewpoint that you can read all the books in the world and it won't change your faith. People can spit at catholicism all they want but that doesn't change many Catholics live the bible and Catholicism is based on it.
My great aunt who passed away didn't want electricity, didn't read anything but the bible, and spoke only about the bible when we last visited her. She lived in Alabama, in the outskirts bible belt. She said she wanted to live as close to jesus time as possible.
I know the nature of love and being one with the body of christ but not to the point of taking my life or isolating myself from the knowledge of the world. From this student of life, I just can't get that.
Once I was converted God stuck my nose in the Bible, and I can't get it out. He is stronger than I am. I read some almost every day. When I was working, I would get up ate 4:00Am and red and study for 2 hours. When I retired, I would get up and read and study for 4 to 6 hours every day. God gave me a gift that contrary to my nature. My wife use to say, me reading anything was a greater miracle than God parting the Red Sea.
Cool. I thought you were a female for some reason. Nothing wrong with reading the bible. That's pretty extensive. I always wondered how people of the book can have so much passion for christ just from reading the book. Wouldn't it be more in service and communion, devotion and prayer?
What I believe is just the opposite of that.
Actually, no. You said love is eternal and not dependent on external things. The people committed and experiencing love are external. Without their external commitment, the love would not exist. The love is dependent on their external commitment. Internal and external are both equally important.
If you saw god as external, than you can give proof of his existence without sharing your experiences (which is what many atheist want). Since I
know god is an experience not something you can externally prove, when you say you know god-you know him internally.
You can't say "god does exist" as a fact. Facts are external. They can be tested and they can be verified all over the world. Beliefs and opinions cannot be verified beyond the person and people who believe in it.
Nothing about religion makes sense to me unless it has a Biblical basis.
Fair enough.
I think you really know better than that. God's existence does not depend on anything. Either He exist or He doesn't
He sure does. That's why god is internal. You can't have an internal experience if you only limit god to being an external being. That's deism not christianity and definitely not the bible and any christian sect I know both in the south where my family are from and in the midsouth here in VA.
God does exist. He just cannot exist until more than one comes together in christ (from a christian point of view). That's the point of jesus' teachings. It's not a solo belief. It's a communal belief. It is an oral tradition written down (for convenience) so that all who
hear and speak his word would be one his body.
Once you make him external, he cease to exist. I don't understand the creator concept just the presence of god in the body of christ.
Don't care to try. The Bible does a much better than mere man can.
I don't understand that. If it is a fact, everything should point to it without synchronizing it with experiences. You said no one can prove god does not exist. By the same token, no one can prove that he does. It's all in experiences and communal worship. This is in many god-religions not just christianity.
Though, I do have a co-worker who feels the same way as you. To me, it's like cutting yourself from the rest of the knowledge god has provided you to learn from. Beats me.
Actually it isn't, Some have made traditions from what they understand about the Bible. Some culture have developed for the Bible.
When jesus went to the temple to pray to his father, that "going to the temple" is a tradition. When he broke bread at the lord's supper and told others to do the same, that is tradition. When people commit to fasting that is tradition. When jesus did his ministry and told his disciples to do the same in his name, that is tradition. The book of Acts is tradition.
Tradition is just practices, teachings, and beliefs orally and written carried down from one generation to the next. Nothing more.
No.
Speak for yourself, not for me.
I never mentioned you in that comment. I was giving an example of how some christians separate love from the people who give love. Love is embedded in traditions. Outside of that, it's all new age.
Love exists. It does not depend on people experiencing. Someone can be love and not eve know it,
Love is an abstract emotion. I cannot go outside and "see" love. It's something you experience. We label it love but in and of itself it doesn't need a label. You discount experiences yet base your belief on them.
That I don't understand.
No, you are. Conservative Christians call God their Father. That is as personal as it gets. You Are making Him depend on emotion, etc.
Without us, he doesn't exist. If christ is the body of people and he is only present when more than one person comes together in his name, technically, he cannot be present unless more than one person is there.
If he was not dependant on your experiences, you can give proof that he exists without referring to your experiences.
However, that can't happen. Remember, you said god is internal and all christians now this. I know this. So, how can he be separate from you when you are his creation and you just as christ are a mirror of him both in spirit and in deed?
