against intelligent creator?

[Unveiled Artist]

In heaven I will not be a sinner. I will know the pure love of God. None of my loved ones will die. There will be no more sadness and for you no more pain.

How do you grow when there is no more sadness?

Wouldn't spirituality be living through the sadness and not trying to relieve it?​

In my personal opinion, spirituality for me teaches me how to die because we are all in a cycle of life and being comfortable with suffering and dying will let our loved ones be at peace seeing the positive nature of death.

I mean, when my eyes went bad and I thought I was going blind, I stopped school, volunteering, everything and I was just sooo bored because I had no challenges. No "being broke." Nothing like that. After all the doctors visits to five different specialists, I called the Department of the Blind and they helped me to learn to work with the condition I have.

It made life so much easier to work with someone. Believe me, I rather be fully blind than sporadically double sighted.

Now I'm back to suffering. (My eye condition doesn't cause pain just frustrates the mess out of me)

I can't imagine a world being total bliss (or 20/20 vision). I rather be completely blind (no life) than to sporadic shifts in vision acuity (off and on suffering) because when I didn't know what was going on, I was floating in my apartment doing nothing.

I guess it takes on a different perspective.

My other question is, why would you (or any christian) feel another person must have eternity with god for them to feel better?

What about their lives and spirituality do you know of them, that they do not know outside of your personal opinion/belief?​

 

[ChristineM]

Not true. It is impossible to prove God does not exist and the evidence we have point to that He eoes exist.




I didn't say that.

So you keep saying, yet i provide the proof and the reasoning forvthat proof and you provide nothing but indignation


Actually you wrote and i quote

"There is no proof that God does not exist. SHRUG"

I simply corrected your error

 

[ChristineM]

That is what the Bible says, believe it or not.

Since when has the bible been proof of anything?

 

[ChristineM]

My point exactly

??? You said otherwise.

"
Most of all, by definition, a-theism teaches you to scrutinize every belief other than your own, to even refuse to acknowledge your own belief as such- and that makes it particularly difficult to escape
"

You have it the wrong way, the enquiring mind usually is the triggering for atheism. Atheism does not teach...

 

[Guy Threepwood]

??? You said otherwise.

"
Most of all, by definition, a-theism teaches you to scrutinize every belief other than your own, to even refuse to acknowledge your own belief as such- and that makes it particularly difficult to escape
"

You have it the wrong way, the enquiring mind usually is the triggering for atheism. Atheism does not teach...

I said that atheism teaches you to avoid recognizing your own beliefs as such (aka blind faith)

you said

Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Any other belief an atheist holds is irrelevant to the term atheist.

exactly my point

Anyone can play the 'default by negative prefix' game-

As an a-materialist, I make no claims, I have no beliefs, I merely lack belief in any sort of materialistic mechanisms creating the universe and life. Therefore the burden of proof lies 100% with materialists

(And I default to the obvious alternative meanwhile)


See? it woks just as well both ways- that is to say, not very well. But I have no need to take this 'I claim default' stance, because I am willing and able to defend my own beliefs on their own merits.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

why atheists attack on the idea of an intelligent creator? isn't it possible that an intelligent creator might exist? most atheists act like this is absurd.

It's certainly possible some type of creator(s) or something else we can't comprehend is behind the existence of the universe. I know very few atheists who don't readily admit as much. Of course, it is somewhat absurd to think that the imaginations of primitive humans somehow stumbled across the true answer, without any objective observations or evidence to support the existence of their obviously ego-projected inventions.

 

[ChristineM]

I said that atheism teaches you to avoid recognizing your own beliefs as such (aka blind faith)

you said




exactly my point

Anyone can play the 'default by negative prefix' game-

As an a-materialist, I make no claims, I have no beliefs, I merely lack belief in any sort of materialistic mechanisms creating the universe and life. Therefore the burden of proof lies 100% with materialists

(And I default to the obvious alternative meanwhile)


See? it woks just as well both ways- that is to say, not very well. But I have no need to take this 'I claim default' stance, because I am willing and able to defend my own beliefs on their own merits.

I quoted precisely what you said and no, it doesn't work both ways and stomping your foot makes no difference to that.

 

[ChristineM]

I said that atheism teaches you to avoid recognizing your own beliefs as such (aka blind faith)

you said




exactly my point

Anyone can play the 'default by negative prefix' game-

As an a-materialist, I make no claims, I have no beliefs, I merely lack belief in any sort of materialistic mechanisms creating the universe and life. Therefore the burden of proof lies 100% with materialists

(And I default to the obvious alternative meanwhile)


See? it woks just as well both ways- that is to say, not very well. But I have no need to take this 'I claim default' stance, because I am willing and able to defend my own beliefs on their own merits.

You are also confused over materialist and atheist, i answered on specious claim of atheist, now you are moving the goal posts

You made the original clam, the burden of proof lies with you

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I quoted precisely what you said and no, it doesn't work both ways and stomping your foot makes no difference to that.

stomping? sorry if I touched a nerve!

I demonstrated why it works just the same both ways. Framing a belief as a dis-belief of the alternative does not change your belief.

Feel free to make a substantive argument to the contrary if you can

 

[ChristineM]

stomping? sorry if I touched a nerve!

I demonstrated why it works just the same both ways. Framing a belief as a dis-belief of the alternative does not change your belief.

Feel free to make a substantive argument to the contrary if you can

Touched a what? You are the one on the defensive, telling untruths about personal mindset and generalising to a whose section of the human race will have that effect.

You demonstrated nothing other than your embarrassment

And there you to again trying to shift responsibility for your own statement.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Touched a what? You are the one on the defensive, telling untruths about personal mindset and generalising to a whose section of the human race will have that effect.

You demonstrated nothing other than your embarrassment

And there you to again trying to shift responsibility for your own statement.

I was born and bred a staunch atheist, and remained so for several decades. I used to take the exact same position- that my belief was 'default truth' until proven otherwise. And I didn't find this particularly clashed with other atheists- I can't speak for them all no, but you and I and every atheist I ever met takes that same stance

It wasn't until I recognized my own beliefs as such, that I was able to apply a fraction of the scrutiny to them that I did to everyone else's beliefs.

we all believe in something Christine & there's nothing wrong with that

 

[omega2xx]

How do you grow when there is no more sadness?​

Everyone in heaven will be complete. There will be no need to grow.



Wouldn't spirituality be living through the sadness and not trying to relieve it?​

In my personal opinion, spirituality for me teaches me how to die because we are all in a cycle of life and being comfortable with suffering and dying will let our loved ones be at peace seeing the positive nature of death.

I mean, when my eyes went bad and I thought I was going blind, I stopped school, volunteering, everything and I was just sooo bored because I had no challenges. No "being broke." Nothing like that. After all the doctors visits to five different specialists, I called the Department of the Blind and they helped me to learn to work with the condition I have.

It made life so much easier to work with someone. Believe me, I rather be fully blind than sporadically double sighted.

Now I'm back to suffering. (My eye condition doesn't cause pain just frustrates the mess out of me)

I can't imagine a world being total bliss (or 20/20 vision). I rather be completely blind (no life) than to sporadic shifts in vision acuity (off and on suffering) because when I didn't know what was going on, I was floating in my apartment doing nothing.

I guess it takes on a different perspective.

My other question is, why would you (or any christian) feel another person must have eternity with god for them to feel better?

What about their lives and spirituality do you know of them, that they do not know outside of your personal opinion/belief?​

[/QUOTE]


No one knows for certain what heave will be like. Those who get there will not be disappointed.

 

[ChristineM]

I was born and bred a staunch atheist, and remained so for several decades. I used to take the exact same position- that my belief was 'default truth' until proven otherwise. And I didn't find this particularly clashed with other atheists- I can't speak for them all no, but you and I and every atheist I ever met takes that same stance

It wasn't until I recognized my own beliefs as such, that I was able to apply a fraction of the scrutiny to them that I did to everyone else's beliefs.

we all believe in something Christine & there's nothing wrong with that

And when was it that atheism taught you to think? Taught you to do anything?

Because that's what you claimed.

 

[omega2xx]

So you keep saying, yet i provide the proof and the reasoning forvthat proof and you provide nothing but indignation


Actually you wrote and i quote

"There is no proof that God does not exist. SHRUG"

I simply corrected your error

The main error in this discussion is that you think it can be proved that God does not exist.

 

[omega2xx]

Since when has the bible been proof of anything?

Since God inspired what men should write in it.

 

[ChristineM]

Since God inspired what men should write in it.

So now you need proof of gods existence to validate your claim.

S'ok, i can wait

 

[ChristineM]

The main error in this discussion is that you think it can be proved that God does not exist.

You error is that i already done that, as you keep denying. Never anything substantial to refute my proofs, just incredulity and foot stomping.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The main error in this discussion is that you think it can be proved that God does not exist.

It can be proven that god, an entity, does not exist. The problem is not the claims. You say he does but then say no one can prove he doesnt. That isnt a good defense to stand on.

You cant defend your point by saying "you're wrong." You hsve to come up with your own proof and discuss it. If this is what you believe, proof should be easy to give. Not just "I see a tree, god exists." Thats sycronizing. You can give experiences. Those count as proof that

God exists through peoples experiences

But once you take experience, culture, and tradition out, there is no god. Its hard to prove nothing does not exist. Though when you say something Does exist, it should be logical to prove,

Right?

At least for sake of discussion.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In heaven I will not be a sinner. I will know the pure love of God. None of my loved ones will die. There will be no more sadness and for you no more pain.

True of heaven, and according to Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 25:8 that will also be true of Earth.No sickness, No death.
I think God's will, His purpose, for heaven is: good conditions. No crime, violence, pollution, sickness nor death.
So, by praying God's will be done here in Earth as it is in heaven, then we are praying for those same good healthy conditions to exist right here on Earth. Thus the humble meek will inherit the Earth, the earthly realm of God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus for a thousand years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There is no fear of punishment for Christians. In fact we will not be judged---Jn 5:24
There is no mind control. Where did you get that idea? God tells us what is sin and what is not. Then we get to MAKE UP OUR OWN MIND, if we will try to obey what He tells us.

To me John 5:24 means that the genuine ' wheat ' Christians will Not have an 'adverse' judgement.
Since both the figurative ' sheep' and 'goats ' are judged according to Matthew 25:31-33 the haughty ' goats' have an 'adverse' judgement, meanwhile the humble ' sheep ' receive a 'favorable' judgement - Matthew 25:37.
They are part of the humble meek who will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised at Matthew 5:5.
They inherit the Earth starting with calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth begins.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have a chronic illness and it took away most my childhood to where anything "spiritual" or extra curricular thoughts didn't get past creative writing, poetry, drawing, and some painting..............
Because of my illness, I really did not look to the future because even today (with epilepsy) I "don't know" what will happen in the next moment or hour. It's a guessing game. So, right now (literally), I'm listening to music and thinking of getting my work done while talking to you rather than rummage in my head where I will be in the afterlife. It's too much of a headache.
So, I can only go by people's opinions and experiences. I can't talk to Moses, Abraham, John, and Peter. I can only talk to the individual christian or believer.
The only reason I can think of wanting a good future is because of fear (healthy fear) of "not knowing" and needing something to help you to know (or have faith) so you won't go crazy.

Jesus' follower Philip helped the Ethiopian official to know (have more faith) according to Acts of the Apostles 8:30-35. Also, as Jesus said at Matthew 24:14, good news (gospel) would be proclaimed world wide.

I would venture to guess that you might find the words of Jeremiah 29:11 to be encouraging because he speaks of God having thoughts of peace, and Not of calamity, in order to give you a future and a hope.

Since Jesus resurrected the dead back to happy-and-healthy physical life on Earth, then Jesus was showing us a preview, or coming attraction, of what he will be doing on a grand-global scale during his millennial reign over Earth when No one will say, " I am sick......." according to Isaiah 33:24. No more death on Earth - Isaiah 25:8
Even while Jesus was on Earth No one could talk to Moses or Abraham, but God promised father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and that ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of healing for earth's nations according to Revelation 22:2 ( Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 ).
Since the majority of mankind (John 3:13) will have a physical resurrection then, at that coming time, people will be able to talk to Moses and Abraham. That is why the ' future tense ' is used at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection...... Via physical resurrection is a way the humble meek people will inherit the Earth.
Those of us still alive at the soon coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25:31-33 will have the opportunity to remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth, right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth begins.