Aggregate Biomass, climate change, and talking to deniers

[Revoltingest]

We've been trading posts for almost 6 years now - wow! I'm pretty sure we share some core values, like valuing: logic, evidence, and predictability.

Climate change deniers don't make those values their top priorities. So how do you talk logically with a person who doesn't value logic? How do you use evidence to talk to a person who doesn't value evidence?

You want to change the mind of someone whose perspective
is based upon emotion rather than reason & evidence.
Does it not make sense to use emotion in a productive way?
Being friendly & engaging will do that.
Being hostile & off-putting will alienate them.

I'm reminded of Dayrl Davis....
How One Man Convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan Members To Give Up Their Robes

 

[dianaiad]

You actually see social or environmental activists like this?!
Those I'm familiar with tend to be impoverished, well-informed idealists unconcerned with money, status or $300 jeans.

OH, come on.

ALL the so called 'leaders' of the left are EXACTLY like that. I run into them constantly.

 

[dianaiad]

Ok. I was being silly.

For the record, I've never spoken to anyone about climate who has shifted and inch in response to straight-up science. IRL, with friends, they just evade or change the subject and on here it's much worse.

Also, $300 jeans are like a crime against sense.

my problem with "straight up science' is the early fraud going on. It makes me really leery.

On the other hand, the evidence that the globe IS warming is pretty solid.


My BIGGEST problem is the way the left (in the USA, especially) seems to think that humans are the sole cause, and that somehow the USA is the culprit and the only cure, and that unless the USA dives back into the stone age, the world will end.

The fact is, humans didn't cause this. It's a natural phenomenon and frankly, the earth has been warmer than this through most of its existence. We are still coming out of our latest ice age, and that won't stop. All we humans can do, even if we give up doing ANYTHING but pooping, will slow it down a bit.

So humans are tipping the balance more than we are comfortable with. The earth may soon be fit for dinosaurs and very big insects, and those coastal cities will have to move inland. It won't be fun.

But the USA is doing more to amiliorate this than any other nation, and the REAL culprits, India, China and Russia, aren't even trying. Those nations are not only increasing carbon output, they are the absolute WORST polluters.

The USA is being blamed for all of it. Shoot, we were even blamed for the Amazon fires.

And I, for one, am tired of it.

I believe that God put us on the earth to be good stewards of it. That doesn't include polluting it. We wan't to live in a beautiful, clean world.

But we simply cannot make everybody else behave, can we?

 

[Revoltingest]

my problem with "straight up science' is the early fraud going on. It makes me really leery.

On the other hand, the evidence that the globe IS warming is pretty solid.


My BIGGEST problem is the way the left (in the USA, especially) seems to think that humans are the sole cause, and that somehow the USA is the culprit and the only cure, and that unless the USA dives back into the stone age, the world will end.

The fact is, humans didn't cause this. It's a natural phenomenon and frankly, the earth has been warmer than this through most of its existence. We are still coming out of our latest ice age, and that won't stop. All we humans can do, even if we give up doing ANYTHING but pooping, will slow it down a bit.

So humans are tipping the balance more than we are comfortable with. The earth may soon be fit for dinosaurs and very big insects, and those coastal cities will have to move inland. It won't be fun.

But the USA is doing more to amiliorate this than any other nation, and the REAL culprits, India, China and Russia, aren't even trying. Those nations are not only increasing carbon output, they are the absolute WORST polluters.

The USA is being blamed for all of it. Shoot, we were even blamed for the Amazon fires.

And I, for one, am tired of it.

I believe that God put us on the earth to be good stewards of it. That doesn't include polluting it. We wan't to live in a beautiful, clean world.

But we simply cannot make everybody else behave, can we?

Note also that the AGW types on the left are also deafeningly silent
about population control. There is no technological solution for the
looming environmental degradation caused by a ballooning population.

I have no workable solution either, but at least I'm willing to face it.

 

[icehorse]

@dianaiad @Revoltingest

We have to rise above ALL the finger pointing, and act. So what if some leaders don't suit your style? So what if China isn't helping? So what????

Do I believe population control is a crucial issue? Of course!!

We have to get real about population, eating animals (which is another HUGE exacerbator of the problem), non fossil fuel R&D, and so on. It's all crucial.

@Revoltingest - If you can sweet talk deniers into changing their minds, please, go for it - you have my blessings!

But Greta has been making some good headway taking the anger and shame route.

 

[Revoltingest]

@dianaiad @Revoltingest

We have to rise above ALL the finger pointing, and act. So what if some leaders don't suit your style? So what if China isn't helping? So what????

Do I believe population control is a crucial issue? Of course!!

We have to get real about population, eating animals (which is another HUGE exacerbator of the problem), non fossil fuel R&D, and so on. It's all crucial.

@Revoltingest - If you can sweet talk deniers into changing their minds, please, go for it - you have my blessings!

But Greta has been making some good headway taking the anger and shame route.

I'm reminded of a fervent feminist on RF from days of yore.
She believed that the path to swaying minds was to be openly
hostile, in your face, uncivil, & unremitting. I was accused of
of terrible things. Did this sway me to her views?
Nah...I just found her offensive, & unworthy of conversation.
Do you want to be seen that way?

 

[Notanumber]

The Left keep telling us that western countries should be leading by example.

The Left should be leading by example but I have not heard of any leftwing celebrities giving up their jet set lifestyles.

 

[Valjean]

Also, $300 jeans are like a crime against sense.

They're status markers.

 

[icehorse]

I'm reminded of a fervent feminist on RF from days of yore.
She believed that the path to swaying minds was to be openly
hostile, in your face, uncivil, & unremitting. I was accused of
of terrible things. Did this sway me to her views?
Nah...I just found her offensive, & unworthy of conversation.
Do you want to be seen that way?

When it comes to an issue as dire as climate change, I don't care how I'm seen, I care about results.

I tell you what, you take the high road, and I'll join Greta on the low road, and maybe together we can make some progress.

 

[Valjean]

OH, come on.

ALL the so called 'leaders' of the left are EXACTLY like that. I run into them constantly.

Name some left-wing "leaders."
I didn't think the left was much into leadership. They tend to be democratic and co-operative.

 

[Revoltingest]

When it comes to an issue as dire as climate change, I don't care how I'm seen, I care about results.

How's that work'n for ya?
Got any converts yet?

 

[icehorse]

How's that work'n for ya?
Got any converts yet?

Not sure, how about you?

Listen, I've tried the polite route for decades. If you've got a formula that works, please share. I'm not attached to any approach, I just want us to succeed.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not sure, how about you?

Listen, I've tried the polite route for decades. If you've got a formula that works, please share. I'm not attached to any approach, I just want us to succeed.

I've actually had some people in real life & a couple posters
here express changed views based upon reasoned argument.

But what I think really goes on is that there are 2 kinds of people...
1) Those who seek to influence others.
2) Those who excuse their own rage.

 

[icehorse]

I've actually had some people in real life & a couple posters
here express changed views based upon reasoned argument.

But what I think really goes on is that there are 2 kinds of people...
1) Those who seek to influence others.
2) Those who excuse their own rage.

Perhaps. But you also seem to be implying that your way is the only effective way to influence others. If we take Greta as an example, she's clearly influenced a lot of people and she is anything but polite.

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps. But you also seem to be implying that your way is the only effective way to influence others. If we take Greta as an example, she's clearly influenced a lot of people and she is anything but polite.

She's been effective, eh?
Other than true believers (already of
her tribe), I just hear of derision for her.

In matters technical, I say that incivility
is definitely not the way.

 

[dianaiad]

@dianaiad @Revoltingest

We have to rise above ALL the finger pointing, and act. So what if some leaders don't suit your style? So what if China isn't helping? So what????

So what? The USA has 325.7 million people.
China has 1.386 BIILLION people
India has 1339 billion.

The fifty most polluted rivers on the planet ALL run in China, India, or the next door neighbor. The most polluted cities on the planet belong in China and India.

and the world is not pointing accusatory fingers at them. Just at us, and the fact is, if the entire planet were as 'polluted' as the USA is, we wouldn't have this problem.

Do I believe population control is a crucial issue? Of course!!

The top birth rates belong in the most pollution producing and poorest of nations.

We have to get real about population, eating animals (which is another HUGE exacerbator of the problem), non fossil fuel R&D, and so on. It's all crucial.

It doesn't matter how many Americans go vegan.
Doesn't matter how many Americans limit themselves to one or zero children, with abortion being almost a religious epiphany. The problem is being excacerbated by those who are pointing the fingers at us.

@Revoltingest - If you can sweet talk deniers into changing their minds, please, go for it - you have my blessings!

But Greta has been making some good headway taking the anger and shame route.

Greta is an autistic teenager who has been obsessed with the role of the USA. It's not our fault, we can't fix it.....in spite of 'anger and shame.' Amazing....the only people who seem to FEEL shame are the ones who least need to feel any.

Now when is Greta going to yell at China?


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Yeah. I thought so.

 

[dianaiad]

Name some left-wing "leaders."
I didn't think the left was much into leadership. They tend to be democratic and co-operative.

Nancy Pelosi....who lives in a gated complex surrounded by homeless.
Clinton, who called us a bunch of 'deplorables' in the first place.

Almost every entertainment industry 'star' with an album or film (and a lovely house) who goes around spouting off idiocy.

Those who are openly conservative don't seem to get jobs.

What rock do you live under?

 

[McBell]

But Greta has been making some good headway taking the anger and shame route.

Has she?
If so, I sure don't see it.
Yeah, there is a lot of talk now, but that is all I have seen, talk, no action.

 

[Valjean]

She's been effective, eh?
Other than true believers (already of
her tribe), I just hear of derision for her.

In matters technical, I say that incivility
is definitely not the way.

On the other hand, it wasn't polite discourse that ended the British Raj or South African apartheid; that got women the vote or civil rights for American blacks.

 

[icehorse]

So what? The USA has 325.7 million people.
China has 1.386 BIILLION people
India has 1339 billion.

The fifty most polluted rivers on the planet ALL run in China, India, or the next door neighbor. The most polluted cities on the planet belong in China and India.

and the world is not pointing accusatory fingers at them. Just at us, and the fact is, if the entire planet were as 'polluted' as the USA is, we wouldn't have this problem.

But we're also influencers for the world. If we do better, then the youth all over the world - including China - will be positively influenced.

As for the US - I would feel a lot better about us if we didn't consume so much meat. That's VERY hard on the environment.