Alcohol and Gambling are Sins???

[Rainbow Mage]

If we want to go with the definition that sin is something that hurts yourself or someone else then you could say that to the well-disciplined nothing is sin, but to the excessive, everything can be sin, even food and drink.

I don't personally like the word sin myself.

 

[Onkara]

If we want to go with the definition that sin is something that hurts yourself or someone else then you could say that to the well-disciplined nothing is sin, but to the excessive, everything can be sin, even food and drink.

I don't personally like the word sin myself.

I don't like the word much either. I think we are both giving it focus due to the OP, which is useful to point out before anyone assumes that either of us do see sin as something we like or promote as some sort of religious requirement.

In my opinion sin is simply going against your self, in a spritual/religious sense. It doesn't mean we cannot or should not, but we sow what we reap.

One dharmic answer is for balance, the middle way/path. Enjoy but not in excess. Most people can report when they are over indulging at the sake of their better judgement, so perhaps sin can be summarised as just going against your self.

 

[Reverend Rick]

How are alcohol and gambling sins? Which religions teach this and why? Wouldn't abusing alcohol and excessive gambling are sins make more sense?

OK, I would like to address the "why religions teach this" aspect. Drunkenness is the sin IMHO. Gambling is addictive. If a man works all week and stops off for two beers and buys a lottery ticket, I don't believe there is any harm. If he spends his whole paycheck and goes to jail for DUI, there is much harm.

I see your point about moderation and it being OK to drink and gamble responsibly.

There is one aspect you may have missed however. If your under control vice causes others to over indulge, you have some liability in this.

Say you have a barbecue and and serve beer. Perhaps your neighbor is an alcoholic and has been sober for 10 years. He comes over, gets drunk and goes home and beats his wife. Just saying.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

ESalam that same logic can be applied to eating. I understand if it's a personal religious view, but why mandate this view on everyone?

If a person doesn't drink or gamble, he can still be perfectly happy.

If a person doesn't eat, he dies.

I would not do both at the same time. A good way to lose a lot of money.:yes:

And the reason why drinks are free at the tables in Vegas.

OK, I would like to address the "why religions teach this" aspect. Drunkenness is the sin IMHO. Gambling is addictive. If a man works all week and stops off for two beers and buys a lottery ticket, I don't believe there is any harm. If he spends his whole paycheck and goes to jail for DUI, there is much harm.

I think there are other aspects to gambling, which is where sin may come into it.

There's that old saying: "the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math." Some gambling can be seen as foolishness at any level. Someone who buys a lottery ticket every week with the expectation of winning eventually might only be making a small bad decision, but it's still a bad decision.

Also, some gambling can become a way for one person to take advantage of another. I think that "card sharking" would be looked down on for the same reasons that usury is: the smarter or more powerful person is profiting not from his own work, but from the misunderstanding or desperateness of the other person. It's not exactly charitable.

Now... personally, I do gamble occasionally, but with a different mindset. When I buy a lottery ticket (which isn't very often, but when I do), I realize that I'm not so much buying a realistic chance at the jackpot as buying "permission" to dream about being a millionaire for a few days. When I go to the casino (which, again, isn't very often at all), I'll play craps, but with the same mindset as when I buy a movie ticket: I'm paying for entertainment. It's a fun game by itself; anything I win is gravy.

Still, I think that negative aspect of gambling is worth considering: often, gambling is a way of one person to take advantage of another, and in that respect, it's either rather uncharitable or enables uncharitableness, even in moderation.

 

[ninerbuff]

I wonder how many people who are religious really enjoy Vegas?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There is one aspect you may have missed however. If your under control vice causes others to over indulge, you have some liability in this.

Say you have a barbecue and and serve beer. Perhaps your neighbor is an alcoholic and has been sober for 10 years. He comes over, gets drunk and goes home and beats his wife. Just saying.

Going a bit beyond this, there's an argument here that's a lot like Sam Harris' argument about how religious moderates "enable" religious extremists: it's a lot easier to abuse alcohol in a society filled with moderate drinkers than it is in a society where drinking anything is taboo.

The local liquor store where your alcoholic neighbour buys his alcohol depends on many moderate drinkers to stay in business. If not for them, then the alcoholic could not drink without extreme difficulty.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wonder how many people who are religious really enjoy Vegas?

My impression is that Vegas tends to bring out people's religious sentiments:

"God, please let me get an ace!"

 

[MathewJames]

yes there are benefits from alcohol for men. the seller will gain money from it. it helps with eating (all liquid drinks help with digestion) etc etc. but the it is more harmful than it is beneficial.

the verse speaks of 2 things, alcohol + gambling and giving in charity. people who drink and gamble do not give in charity (maybe only a little) a gambler will go spend his money rather than just give it away for free. same for an alcoholic, he wouldn't give money because he wants to drink his money. therefore Allah says to give the extra wealth that you have rather than gamble or drink it.

i hope my answer is clear, if not please read my previous post that comments on the verse.

Much peace be with you always Eselam. I agree that alcohol has many many many more times the problems than any benefits.

 

[lunamoth]

Going a bit beyond this, there's an argument here that's a lot like Sam Harris' argument about how religious moderates "enable" religious extremists: it's a lot easier to abuse alcohol in a society filled with moderate drinkers than it is in a society where drinking anything is taboo.

The local liquor store where your alcoholic neighbour buys his alcohol depends on many moderate drinkers to stay in business. If not for them, then the alcoholic could not drink without extreme difficulty.

Right, which illuminates what a silly argument that is. Let's also outlaw science while we are at it, because those well-intentioned moderate scientists enable those who wish to make biological weapons and atomic bombs.

 

[MathewJames]

In my opinion sin is simply going against your self, in a spritual/religious sense. It doesn't mean we cannot or should not, but we sow what we reap.

imo, it is all about sowing what we reap. This is very true with alcohol, but there is no sin in alcohol. The sin (i know poor conceptual type word) is what comes out of the mouth of a drunk. A drunk will most likely sow poor seeds.



Not to push bible verses, but in Mathew, chapter 15: it reads....

Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.


notice the word is not "sin" but the word is that which "defile" us.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Right, which illuminates what a silly argument that is. Let's also outlaw science while we are at it, because those well-intentioned moderate scientists enable those who wish to make biological weapons and atomic bombs.

I don't think the analogy works any more than Proud 2 B Gay's point about food.

Science has clear, objective benefit associated with it. The only benefit derived from alcohol or gambling is the enjoyment of the person partaking of it.

For me, the argument against banning gambling or alcohol isn't about the wonderful benefits of either of them; it's about the harm associated with curtailing personal freedom.

 

[lunamoth]

I don't think the analogy works any more than Proud 2 B Gay's point about food.

Science has clear, objective benefit associated with it. The only benefit derived from alcohol or gambling is the enjoyment of the person partaking of it.

For me, the argument against banning gambling or alcohol isn't about the wonderful benefits of either of them; it's about the harm associated with curtailing personal freedom.

It applies to any human endeavor, regardless of whether it is for personal pleasure or societal advancement, or anything else. It is the bankrupt slippery slope argument that throws rationality and reason out the window.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It applies to any human endeavor, regardless of whether it is for personal pleasure or societal advancement, or anything else. It is the bankrupt slippery slope argument that throws rationality and reason out the window.

How is it irrational?

I ask because I think the argument's completely valid: moderate drinkers do make it possible for alcoholics to drink. Moderate religious people do lend legitimacy to extremists.

I support religious freedom not because I think religious belief is beneficial or even benign... in fact, just the opposite. However, I support religious freedom because the value I place on personal freedom outweighs my concerns on this matter.

 

[Gharib]

MathewJames, what comes out of the mouth of a drunk and out of his actions might be a sin, almost very likely. Islam not only prohibits that which is wrong (a sin) but that which also leads to it. Adultery and fornication is forbiden in both the bible and qur'an, but are you telling me that 2 strangers being naked infront of one another and alone is not a sin and will not lead to adultery or fornication which are sins? my answer is yes. so my next question is, what willl lead them to adultery, my answer again is, being naked. does this example not fit in with what i'm trying to say about alcohol and gambling?

does anyone not get what i'm trying to say?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Many people are weak. They cannot participate in any addictive activities without overindulgence. No one goes to a casino with the intent of spending their last dime and not being able to buy groceries the next week.

Should these overindulging folks ruin a good time for responsible people? In a free society, I don't think so. On the other hand, I can see the logic of protectionism.

I rarely gamble. I have much to lose if I become addicted. I do enjoy the entertainment of a casino occasionally. It has been two years since my last trip.

Drinking is something that I do not do on a daily or weekly basis. When I do drink, (usually at the lake) I do it discretely and responsibly.

Back to the OP, many churches frown on these activities because many members are fighting their addictions and do not need the least bit of encouragement. To encourage an addict IMHO is a sin.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Many people are weak. They cannot participate in any addictive activities without overindulgence. No one goes to a casino with the intent of spending their last dime and not being able to buy groceries the next week.

Should these overindulging folks ruin a good time for responsible people? In a free society, I don't think so. On the other hand, I can see the logic of protectionism.

I rarely gamble. I have much to lose if I become addicted. I do enjoy the entertainment of a casino occasionally. It has been two years since my last trip.

I think the last time I was in a casino in the last decade is when my wife and I went on our first (and so far only) cruise together four years ago, and even then, I only made one bet.

For me, my hestiancy to go to the casino now isn't so much out of worry that I'd become a gambling addict; it comes from the fact that, IMO, casinos do tend to prey on the vulnerable. While I can decide on a reasonable amount to gamble, play at the craps table, and call it a night when my money's done, I realize that other people can't do this, and that casinos are, in general, set up to make it as easy as possible for these people to lose their money.

I guess it's on par with other cases where I disagree with an organization's business practices: I don't like what Wal-Mart does to other people, so I don't shop there. I don't like what casinos do to other people, so should I give them my business?

I dunno. I've gone out to the casino with friends in the past just because that's what the group was doing, but I suppose I was being inconsistent when I did go. In retrospect, I think my ethics push me away from casinos more than bring me in.

 

[MathewJames]

MathewJames, what comes out of the mouth of a drunk and out of his actions might be a sin, almost very likely. Islam not only prohibits that which is wrong (a sin) but that which also leads to it. Adultery and fornication is forbiden in both the bible and qur'an, but are you telling me that 2 strangers being naked infront of one another and alone is not a sin and will not lead to adultery or fornication which are sins? my answer is yes. so my next question is, what willl lead them to adultery, my answer again is, being naked. does this example not fit in with what i'm trying to say about alcohol and gambling?

does anyone not get what i'm trying to say?

Yes I understand what you are saying and I think most people get it. I agree the actions of a drunk might be/is a sin (lets just say they defile the person). What that leads to, is most likely great sin.

Adultery and fornication is a sin. That, I know we both agree. And I know you are making the comparison with them and alcohol. How sin can slowly or quickly get a foothold in someone's life when we leave the door a little open. I understand your point.

I also understand the point that Rev Rick makes about a person that does not have negative issues/addictions with alcohol and that person is able to enjoy the benefits. That person should not be penalized because there is someone else with an addictive personality or just a drunk.

 

[MathewJames]

Islam not only prohibits that which is wrong (a sin) but that which also leads to it.

I just wanted to let you know I do understand the above statement and I fully agree with it. I know Islam is not reading the Qur'an, and saying, alcohol is prohibited, because that is what the Qur'an says. IMO...Islam is making its best effort to stay pure and clean, by saying sin grows from drinking alcohol, as such lets prohibit it so it does not lead to sin and more sin.

In some ways, alcohol, is like the false teaching in the Christian church. There were just a few in the beginning. The problem was, no one kicked them out. So they grew and grew. Islam is keeping out what leads to sin.

 

[Bismillah]

Should these overindulging folks ruin a good time for responsible people? In a free society, I don't think so. On the other hand, I can see the logic of protectionism.

I don't know a single person who drinks, even occasionally, who hasn't been completely "hammered" at least once in their life.

 

[MathewJames]

I don't know a single person who drinks, even occasionally, who hasn't been completely "hammered" at least once in their life.

if i come across one, i will let you know.:beach: