All Religions

[lilithu]

Here's where perception comes in. You see many different religions. I see only one - Christians are believers in the religion of God. Muslims are believers in the religion of God. So are Hindus, Jews, Parsis, Sikhs, Baha`i's, Noachides, Taoists, Buddhists, even animists and polytheists though they don't realize it.

Regards,
Scott

lol! Now he's reeeally going to be confused. Actually, I agree with you Scott. I would go even further than what you state here. In my worldview, anyone who tries conscientiously to lead a good, moral life is worshipping God whether they acknowledge it or no. This includes atheists. Which is why I see no need to "convert" people to theism, but I do see the need to speak up when someone is not being moral or kind, etc. However, I don't usually say this because it sounds a bit patronizing. "Well you really are worshipping God; you just don't know it..." It sounds awful even to my ears, so I just don't think about it. As long as people are moral and kind that's all that matters to me.

That said, the point of contention was that shytot was saying that all religions believe in an omnipotent being that watches over you and will bring you to heaven when you die, and that simply isn't true. Whether there is such a God or not, I can't objectively say, but I know it's not true that all religions believe this.

As for shytot's question of why so many different religions, i.e - so many different views of God/Ultimate Reality/the Transcendant/insert your phrase of choice here. It's because there are so many different people in the world. Let's say there's an object in space, say a cylinder. Because we can rotate it and look at it from all angles, we know it's a cylinder. But let's say that we can't do that. Every person sees only one view of that cylinder and no other. They can't move to another location to get a different vantage point. All they know of the object is what they see from the one perspective that they're given. For someone who is looking at the cylinder dead on, it will look like a circle. For someone who is looking at the cylinder from the side, it will look like a rectangle. For others, who are looking at it from different views, it will look like different shapes that are difficult to describe in words but I hope you get the picture.

Jews and Muslims see the transcendence and say that God is One, beyond this physical world. Christians see the transcendence but focus on a particular and say that God incarnated as one. Pantheists see the immanence and say that God and the physical world are one. Pagans see the immanence but focus more on particulars instead of generalities and hence many gods tied to the physical world. Mystics see that the transcendant and the immanent are one. Satanists and Humanists see that we are the moral agents and focus on humanity. Buddhists see the interdependancy. Taoists see that none of these views adequately describe what is going on and refrain from making such descriptions. Hindus see that all of these views have something right about them and so you see elements of all of these in Hinduism. And yes, I am overgeneralizing and oversimplifying all of these wonderful traditions. There are as many religions in the world as there are people. My point is simply that I don't see any of it as all "right" or all "wrong." That's why I said in my first post here that choosing your own religion is over-rated. It's what you choose to do with your religion that really matters. How are you going to use it (or the lack of it - I really don't care) to make yourself and the world better?

 

[Popeyesays]

lol! Now he's reeeally going to be confused. Actually, I agree with you Scott. I would go even further than what you state here. In my worldview, anyone who tries conscientiously to lead a good, moral life is worshipping God whether they acknowledge it or no. This includes atheists. Which is why I see no need to "convert" people to theism, but I do see the need to speak up when someone is not being moral or kind, etc. However, I don't usually say this because it sounds a bit patronizing. "Well you really are worshipping God; you just don't know it..." It sounds awful even to my ears, so I just don't think about it. As long as people are moral and kind that's all that matters to me.

That said, the point of contention was that shytot was saying that all religions believe in an omnipotent being that watches over you and will bring you to heaven when you die, and that simply isn't true. Whether there is such a God or not, I can't objectively say, but I know it's not true that all religions believe this.

As for shytot's question of why so many different religions, i.e - so many different views of God/Ultimate Reality/the Transcendant/insert your phrase of choice here. It's because there are so many different people in the world. Let's say there's an object in space, say a cylinder. Because we can rotate it and look at it from all angles, we know it's a cylinder. But let's say that we can't do that. Every person sees only one view of that cylinder and no other. They can't move to another location to get a different vantage point. All they know of the object is what they see from the one perspective that they're given. For someone who is looking at the cylinder dead on, it will look like a circle. For someone who is looking at the cylinder from the side, it will look like a rectangle. For others, who are looking at it from different views, it will look like different shapes that are difficult to describe in words but I hope you get the picture.

Jews and Muslims see the transcendence and say that God is One, beyond this physical world. Christians see the transcendence but focus on a particular and say that God incarnated as one. Pantheists see the immanence and say that God and the physical world are one. Pagans see the immanence but focus more on particulars instead of generalities and hence many gods tied to the physical world. Mystics see that the transcendant and the immanent are one. Satanists and Humanists see that we are the moral agents and focus on humanity. Buddhists see the interdependancy. Taoists see that none of these views adequately describe what is going on and refrain from making such descriptions. Hindus see that all of these views have something right about them and so you see elements of all of these in Hinduism. And yes, I am overgeneralizing and oversimplifying all of these wonderful traditions. There are as many religions in the world as there are people. My point is simply that I don't see any of it as all "right" or all "wrong." That's why I said in my first post here that choosing your own religion is over-rated. It's what you choose to do with your religion that really matters. How are you going to use it (or the lack of it - I really don't care) to make yourself and the world better?

We have an epiphany of agreement!! See. all the religions MUST agree! Frubals!!!!

"In further consideration of this subject, I wish you to be fair and reasonable in your judgment, setting aside all religious prejudices. We should earnestly seek and thoroughly investigate realities, recognizing that the purpose of the religion of God is the education of humanity and the unity and fellowship of mankind. Furthermore we will establish the point that the foundations of the religions of God are one foundation. This foundation is not multiple for it is reality itself. Reality does not admit of multiplicity although each of the divine religions is separable into two divisions. One concerns the world of morality and the ethical training of human nature. It is directed to the advancement of the world of humanity in general; it reveals and inculcates the knowledge of God and makes possible the discovery of the verities of life. This is ideal and spiritual teaching, the essential quality of divine religion and not subject to change or transformation. It is the one foundation of all the religions of God. Therefore the religions are essentially one and the same."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 274)

Regards,
Scott

 

[Mister_T]

You guys should take some of these posts and share them with some other threads that are going on. I've been debating atheists (all seemingly new) all day and my brain hurts:bonk:

 

[shytot]

Enough already.

I take back everything I have said, I am a lot of things, but one thing
I am not is 'Stupid'. I realise, in fact I know it to be completely true,
the world needs as many religions as it can get, the more the better,
and if religion did not exist, we would have to invent it.
without religion, the world would in turmoil, anarchy would rein, and
life would not be worth living,
because, as a Russian once said, 'Religion is the opium of the masses',
it keeps people quiet, compliant, and afraid.
with religion, people can be controlled, without religion, people would
have no reason to comply with anything, there would be no 'Judgement Day'
(At this point the arms are going into the air, and the faces are turning blue)
(and screams of 'this guy is completely crazy' are ringing in the air)
But 'think' what the world would be like without religion.......................

 

[ashai]

Ushta Shyto


Man are you way off base here!:tsk: Have you forgotten the departed and never lamented Paradise of the Proletariate? I have not, In my country of birth I had to go through their godless education down to the 'experiment' when we in the equivalent of Kinder Garden were told to close our eyes and pray to god for ice cream. When the ice cream was not forthcoming we were then asked to pray to the Party for Ice Cream. Sure enough a load of ice cream was served.

Yet here I stand as living proof that your statement of "if kids were not taught religion , it would disappear in 1 generation" is just a load of ... well you can fill in the blank. Incidentally the countries with the greatest growthin religious believers in the past 10 years? Yep you guess it the former socialist paradises of Eastern Europe and Central Asia.

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[jewscout]

I realise, in fact I know it to be completely true,
the world needs as many religions as it can get, the more the better,
and if religion did not exist, we would have to invent it.
without religion, the world would in turmoil, anarchy would rein, and
life would not be worth living,

if this is what you think the point of all those posts were you've missed the point...

because, as a Russian once said, 'Religion is the opium of the masses',
it keeps people quiet, compliant, and afraid.

actually...Marx was a German...and an incredible idealist whose beliefs held not basis in reality...

with religion, people can be controlled, without religion, people would
have no reason to comply with anything, there would be no 'Judgement Day'
(At this point the arms are going into the air, and the faces are turning blue)
(and screams of 'this guy is completely crazy' are ringing in the air)
But 'think' what the world would be like without religion.......................

yes a world without religion

 

[Popeyesays]

"with religion, people can be controlled, without religion, people would
have no reason to comply with anything, there would be no 'Judgement Day'
(At this point the arms are going into the air, and the faces are turning blue)
(and screams of 'this guy is completely crazy' are ringing in the air)
But 'think' what the world would be like without religion......................."

Well it would be a vastly different world. Cities are the result of religion - the first cities were religious centers, and a major drain on the resources of the civilization.

We would not have agriculture either, since the earliest agriculture had nothing to do with food crops but rather the growing and tending of psycho-active plants for ritual purpose - also to grow enough grain for fermentation of alcohol.

Regards,
Scott

 

[James the Persian]

Yet here I stand as living proof that your statement of "if kids were not taught religion , it would disappear in 1 generation" is just a load of ... well you can fill in the blank. Incidentally the countries with the greatest growthin religious believers in the past 10 years? Yep you guess it the former socialist paradises of Eastern Europe and Central Asia.

Quite right. My wife, godparents, and in-laws are equally good examples - all grew up in the communist east, all now stauncly religious. Frubals are due you (assuming they now work).

James

 

[may]

MAY, I am sorry but you have missed the point, I believe the exact opposite, I am going nowhere, when I say the 'next world', I meant 'Dead'.

right ok ,i was a bit confused by you saying that you were going somewhere.

 

[lilithu]

because, as a Russian once said, 'Religion is the opium of the masses',

Jewscout has already adressed this but LOL!!!:biglaugh:

Dude, if you're going to come in here claiming to be smarter than all of us "captured" religious sheep who can't think for ourselves, at least try to make a better showing of it.

(At this point the arms are going into the air, and the faces are turning blue)
(and screams of 'this guy is completely crazy' are ringing in the air)

Umm.... can we say delusions of grandeur, anyone? As I said in the beginning, you are not the first evangelical atheist to try to lead us out of the darkness. We've heard it all before, and presented better I might add,....whatever.

 

[d.]

actually...Marx was a German...and an incredible idealist whose beliefs held not basis in reality...

this we could debate all day. but he was german alright

 

[shytot]

I think you are missing the point,
I want there to be religion, because without it, we would have chaos.
religion is necessity, but not always a good thing, all I said was, it keeps people
thinking about themselves, and not about the people who really run this world,
the people who amass billions and billions of dollars for themselves,
and leave parts of the world to starve,
you of coarse, will not believe you are all being sidetracked, hoodwinked, or misled,
you think everything you do is your idea,
and then I said, ''think' what the world would be like without religion',
well, what the world would be like without religion, is, it would be horrible,
it is bad enough 'with' religion, imagine what it would be like 'without', chaotic.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but in my opinion, it's true.
while you are merrily praying and singing, the real 'bosses' of this
world are letting you get on with it, while you are doing that,
you are not bothering them. 'Religion is the opium of the masses'.
Shall we pray.

 

[d.]

one thing I am not is 'Stupid'.

shytot,

you have said a lot of things in this thread that i agree with, and others i don't but were thoughtworthy. i do not think you're stupid. but your attitude and generalizations makes your arguments difficult to take seriously.

if you would try to understand the other poster's points of views here, and listen to what they have to tell you, your argument would vastly improve.

 

[Popeyesays]

I think you are missing the point,
I want there to be religion, because without it, we would have chaos.
religion is necessity, but not always a good thing, all I said was, it keeps people
thinking about themselves, and not about the people who really run this world,
the people who amass billions and billions of dollars for themselves,
and leave parts of the world to starve,
you of coarse, will not believe you are all being sidetracked, hoodwinked, or misled,
you think everything you do is your idea,
and then I said, ''think' what the world would be like without religion',
well, what the world would be like without religion, is, it would be horrible,
it is bad enough 'with' religion, imagine what it would be like 'without', chaotic.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but in my opinion, it's true.
while you are merrily praying and singing, the real 'bosses' of this
world are letting you get on with it, while you are doing that,
you are not bothering them. 'Religion is the opium of the masses'.
Shall we pray.

Well, some religions agree that the expenditures on armaments are a jail for humanity and break the backs of those who toil in poverty. This was written in 1907.
"The greatest catastrophe in the world of humanity today is war. Europe is a storehouse of explosives awaiting a spark. All the European nations are on edge, and a single flame will set on fire the whole of that continent. Implements of war and death are multiplied and increased to an inconceivable degree, and the burden of military maintenance is taxing the various countries beyond the point of endurance. Armies and navies devour the substance and possessions of the people; the toiling poor, the innocent and helpless are forced by taxation to provide munitions and armament for governments bent upon conquest of territory and defense against powerful rival nations. There is no greater or more woeful ordeal in the world of humanity today than impending war. Therefore, international peace is a crucial necessity. An arbitral court of justice shall be established by which international disputes are to be settled. Through this means all possibility of discord and war between the nations will be obviated. "
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 317)

It does seem that you wish to argue both ways, and I am reminded of the old adage "One cannot EAT his cake and HAVE it, too." Once consumed the pastry is gone - much like your double-ended argument.

Then you say others are not "thinking", but following blindly. If you're going to lead a parade, don't have the front and the back march off in different directions.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lilithu]

you of coarse, will not believe you are all being sidetracked, hoodwinked, or misled,

And yet you seem surprised when people take offense from your posts.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but in my opinion, it's true. while you are merrily praying and singing, the real 'bosses' of this
world are letting you get on with it, while you are doing that,
you are not bothering them. 'Religion is the opium of the masses'.
Shall we pray.

Every time I think I'm done with this conversation you say something so preposterous... it's quite entertaining actually.

So let me get this straight... NOW you are saying that religion is a good thing because it keeps us hoodwinked masses in check so that the "real bosses" - presumbably people who are not religious because they know better - can get things done. Well, who are these people? They sure are doing a heck of a job of running this world. Look at what great shape it's in!

Religious people are just "merrily praying and singing." Perhaps Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. and Mother Theresa and Desmond Tutu did not get the memo that they were only supposed to be praying and singing. On the flip side, do you think that you could convince Pat Robertson and Jim Dobson and George Dubya Bush that they should just sit around praying and singing? That would really help, thanks.

 

[jewscout]

I think you are missing the point,
I want there to be religion, because without it, we would have chaos.
religion is necessity, but not always a good thing, all I said was, it keeps people
thinking about themselves, and not about the people who really run this world,
the people who amass billions and billions of dollars for themselves,
and leave parts of the world to starve,
you of coarse, will not believe you are all being sidetracked, hoodwinked, or misled,
you think everything you do is your idea,
and then I said, ''think' what the world would be like without religion',
well, what the world would be like without religion, is, it would be horrible,
it is bad enough 'with' religion, imagine what it would be like 'without', chaotic.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but in my opinion, it's true.
while you are merrily praying and singing, the real 'bosses' of this
world are letting you get on with it, while you are doing that,
you are not bothering them. 'Religion is the opium of the masses'.
Shall we pray.

be careful, you might trip while backpeddling...:sarcastic

 

[lilithu]

When people start fruballing me for being mean, that's when I know it's time to bow out. I realized that I would be embarrassed to have my friends from church see me ridiculing you. Such behavior does not speak well to my character either. For that I am sorry.

shytot, I'll put this as nicely and yet as directly as I can: It is my perception from what you've posted that you make negative overgeneralizations and strong judgements based on only a limited amount of knowledge and understanding. I would advise you to take the time to learn more or, failing that, to be more circumspect in your statements. But I can't control what you choose to do. Good luck.

 

[ashai]

Quite right. My wife, godparents, and in-laws are equally good examples - all grew up in the communist east, all now stauncly religious. Frubals are due you (assuming they now work).

James

Well thank you James!:curtsy:

 

[shytot]

Yes I do overgeneralize. but I am writing to be read by twenty
different beliefs and ways of thinking, whatever I write, I write
to get people thinking, I may get their backs up as well, but at
least I am trying to think away from the norm, sometimes slightly
off centre, (that is the correct spelling for 'centre' not 'center')
more often, way off centre, but I am at least thinking my way through
this life, that is why I am unable to believe in such a preposterous
concept as a God, yes preposterous, when it comes to religion, we are asked
to throw logic out of the window, forget everything you have been taught
about how the world works, however it's argued, the two do not mix,
God and logic, will forever be in conflict.
But, it will be argued, I am totally wrong about this as well, I will be told,
'God and logic go hand in hand, all you need is a little imagination.'
It seems to me, once religion gets a grip, everything is thrown out of the window.

 

[Popeyesays]

Yes I do overgeneralize. but I am writing to be read by twenty
different beliefs and ways of thinking, whatever I write, I write
to get people thinking, I may get their backs up as well, but at
least I am trying to think away from the norm, sometimes slightly
off centre, (that is the correct spelling for 'centre' not 'center')
more often, way off centre, but I am at least thinking my way through
this life, that is why I am unable to believe in such a preposterous
concept as a God, yes preposterous, when it comes to religion, we are asked
to throw logic out of the window, forget everything you have been taught
about how the world works, however it's argued, the two do not mix,
God and logic, will forever be in conflict.
But, it will be argued, I am totally wrong about this as well, I will be told,
'God and logic go hand in hand, all you need is a little imagination.'
It seems to me, once religion gets a grip, everything is thrown out of the window.

The STANDARD spelling in the UK is centre, but in the U.S. and Canada it is center. Same for theatre and theater. See, its all a matter of perspective. And you seem totally unable to grasp that perpective changes from one view point to another.
Thinking one's way through this life is something we ALL do.
Faith and logic DO go hand in hand. If you reject material truth (science) because of faith, then you are immersed in superstition, vice versa, you are immersed in crass materialism.

To think one is the only person who thinks their way through life is rank arrogance.

Regards,
Scott