• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

All Truth is Conditional. Discuss!

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
For argument's sake, assume that all truth is conditional* and that, consequently, there is no such thing as absolute truth. Why, then, is all truth conditional?


*By conditional, one means that propositions depend for their truth or falsity on a set of conditions, and that no propositions can be true or false in the absence of a set of conditions. Thus, things can only be said to be conditionally true, or circumstantially true, but can never be said to be absolutely true, for to say that something is absolutely true implies that it is true irregardless of any condition or circumstance.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
For argument's sake, assume that all truth is conditional* and that, consequently, there is no such thing as absolute truth. Why, then, is all truth conditional?
All truth is conditional in this exercise cause you asked the poster to assume it is.

Sorry I am missing the point...
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
Truth is not always conditional.

Gravity always pulls things towards the center of the planet, regardless of how sure I am that I can fly.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Truth is not always conditional.

Gravity always pulls things towards the center of the planet, regardless of how sure I am that I can fly.

But how can you verify that? The fact is you cannot verify that except conditionally. Therefore even your supposed example of an absolute truth is conditional. Repent!
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
For argument's sake, assume that all truth is conditional* and that, consequently, there is no such thing as absolute truth. Why, then, is all truth conditional?


*By conditional, one means that propositions depend for their truth or falsity on a set of conditions, and that no propositions can be true or false in the absence of a set of conditions. Thus, things can only be said to be conditionally true, or circumstantially true, but can never be said to be absolutely true, for to say that something is absolutely true implies that it is true irregardless of any condition or circumstance.
All truth is conditional because a view from nowhere is impossible.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I figured my reply might come across wrong. I simply don't get what you are asking. Sorry for polluting...

No worries. You're not causing any problems. I was just wondering if anyone could propose a better explanation for the assertion that all truth is conditional than the explanation I'm using for that. But in order to propose such an explanation, we must first assume that all truth is conditional.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
No worries. You're not causing any problems. I was just wondering if anyone could propose a better explanation for the assertion that all truth is conditional than the explanation I'm using for that. But in order to propose such an explanation, we must first assume that all truth is conditional.
Funny thing is I imagine that this question is akin to my recent proposal to image a world where killing is never justified. I am not sure humans are capable of doing such a thing without major hurdles to climb.

Many assume love is unconditional towards their child, but you and I both know in your example there are still conditions.

Thanks...
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Funny thing is I imagine that this question is akin to my recent proposal to image a world where killing is never justified. I am not sure humans are capable of doing such a thing without major hurdles to climb.

I agree. It's asking a lot.

Many assume love is unconditional towards their child, but you and I both know in your example there are still conditions.

Good point! I hadn't thought of applying this to love, but that's a fascinating application.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
*By conditional, one means that propositions depend for their truth or falsity on a set of conditions, and that no propositions can be true or false in the absence of a set of conditions. Thus, things can only be said to be conditionally true, or circumstantially true, but can never be said to be absolutely true, for to say that something is absolutely true implies that it is true irregardless of any condition or circumstance.

The acceptance of a circular argument eliminates the need for a better argument.
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
But how can you verify that? The fact is you cannot verify that except conditionally. Therefore even your supposed example of an absolute truth is conditional. Repent!

Repent? I don't think so.

It's easy to verify gravity. It's a natural law. And who really would debate the existence of gravity?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Repent? I don't think so.

It's easy to verify gravity. It's a natural law. And who really would debate the existence of gravity?

Whether one would debate the existence of gravity, along with how easy it is to verify its existence, have nothing logically to do with whether the proposition that gravity exists is conditional or not.
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
Whether one would debate the existence of gravity, along with how easy it is to verify its existence, have nothing logically to do with whether the proposition that gravity exists is conditional or not.

Gravity is conditional to mass. Is that what you mean? I'm still not quite understanding you.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Gravity is conditional to mass. Is that what you mean? I'm still not quite understanding you.

Maybe I'm not explaining it clearly. In order to verify the truth of the proposition that "gravity exists", various conditions must be met. That's to say, the truth of the proposition depends on those conditions being met. Or put more simply, the truth is conditional.

Let's take a less abstract look at the problem. Suppose I want to verify the proposition that "gravity exists". How would I do that?

Well, I might begin by making a prediction: "If gravity exists, then my pen will fall towards the center of the earth, until it reaches an obstruction, when I release it, rather than it will float around the room." (The prediction is logically derived from my operational definition of "gravity", which I have not stated here.)

Next, I test my prediction by holding my pen up and releasing it. I observe that it falls in the general direction of the center of the earth until it hits my floor. So, I am now confident that the proposition "gravity exists" has been collaborated in at least one way. Let's say I now proceed to perform a number of other experiments, all of which either support the notion that gravity exists or falsify some competing explanation for gravity. And after weeks and weeks of such experiments, I am prepared to say with great confidence that the overwhelming weight of evidence very strongly suggests gravity exists.

Now, please note that the means whereby the proposition "gravity exists" is tested are conditional. They are all circumstantial, contingent. There is no means used to test the notion that "gravity exists" that is independent of circumstances, conditions, and contingencies. For instance, holding my pen up and releasing it involves a set of circumstances. I might generalize this and other similar observations by saying that the truth or falsity of the proposition, "gravity exists", depends on various sets of circumstances, and that therefore the truth or falsity of the proposition is circumstantial, conditional, or contingent -- whatever you wish to call it.

Why must I say the proposition is circumstantial? Because I have no means -- none! -- of determining the absolute truth or falsity of the proposition. To illustrate, I have no means of knowing, with absolute certainty, whether gravity will exist tomorrow. I might conclude, based on all my experiments, that it is highly likely to exist tomorrow, but I cannot conclude that it is absolutely certain to exist tomorrow. On the other hand, if I were able to determine the absolute certainty of the proposition, "gravity exists", I would presumably be able to determine whether gravity exists independent of the conditions of past, present, or future.

OK. That's the best explanation I can come up with at the moment. I'm not sure it's all that clear, but I hope it is sufficient.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For argument's sake, assume that all truth is conditional* and that, consequently, there is no such thing as absolute truth. Why, then, is all truth conditional?

*By conditional, one means that propositions depend for their truth or falsity on a set of conditions, and that no propositions can be true or false in the absence of a set of conditions. Thus, things can only be said to be conditionally true, or circumstantially true, but can never be said to be absolutely true, for to say that something is absolutely true implies that it is true irregardless of any condition or circumstance.
Wouldn't the existence of only conditional truth be an absolute (non-conditional) axiom of the universe, and therefore a self-refutation?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
things can only be said to be conditionally true, or circumstantially true, but can never be said to be absolutely true, for to say that something is absolutely true implies that it is true irregardless of any condition or circumstance.
You can define a term any way you wish, of course, but what you've done here is to make the notion of truth an impossibility. The truth of a thing depends on the conditions that define that thing, so there must be at least one existent condition, or there would be no way to speak of it. Moreover, there is no single condition that by itself would define everything, so there must be more than one defining condition. Therefore, one must identify which condition is used so as to identify a particular truth. A thing simply cannot be true irregardless [sic] of any condition or circumstance.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
You can define a term any way you wish, of course, but what you've done here is to make the notion of truth an impossibility. The truth of a thing depends on the conditions that define that thing, so there must be at least one existent condition, or there would be no way to speak of it. Moreover, there is no single condition that by itself would define everything, so there must be more than one defining condition. Therefore, one must identify which condition is used so as to identify a particular truth. A thing simply cannot be true irregardless [sic] of any condition or circumstance.

I don't follow your argument that I have made truth an impossibility. By the way, truth does not refer to things, but more properly to propositions.
 
Top