Am I Wrong To Think That There Is A God, But Not Operating In This World

[Aupmanyav]

maybe Got is the operating system not the operator.

Did you forgot to put an 'a' in 'Got', a typo. I have computer fingers, typing 'a' is difficult for me.

 

[dybmh]

God never told us to worship or pray etc

Prayer / Worship is 'service of the heart'... The commandment to pray is implied in Deuteronomy 6:5.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, Dybmh. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." In Commandments, he is threatening people with dire consequences. I don't like that. If I am bad, boil me in oil for eternity, but why should my generations suffer? But then he declared all humans to be born sinners for the fault of Adam and Eve.

We agree that life is an illusion, I think.

Yeah, I wholly agree to that. There are atoms, electrons and protons and neutrons, and the four or five fundamental forces of nature (we do not know exactly); but we do not experience, perceive these in our daily life. What we perceive through our weak senses, is not the truth. There is no finger but just a collection of energy.

 

[Lionel Refson]

Yeah, I wholly agree to that. There are atoms, electrons and protons and neutrons, and the four or five fundamental forces of nature (we do not know exactly); but we do not experience, perceive these in our daily life. What we perceive through our weak senses, is not the truth. There is no finger but just a collection of energy.

atoms and molecules planets and suns............its all the same to me

 

[Lionel Refson]

Prayer / Worship is 'service of the heart'... The commandment to pray is implied in Deuteronomy 6:5.

IMO The Bible ends after God spoke to the sons of Noah , for reasons I have explained above. Do not dwell in Deuteronomy The God of All is not the God of one tribe and does not destroy others of his creations

 

[dybmh]

IMO The Bible ends after God spoke to the sons of Noah , for rteasons I have explained above. Do not dwell in Deuteronomy The God of All is not the God of one tribei

Noted. Just thought I would point out the source for the commandment in case it is useful.

I know you are developing your own system. I think it's great.

 

[sojourner]

This doesn't challenge the chain of transmission of the Oral Torah, correct?

No, it just shows that things were written down long before 70 CE.

 

[stvdv]

I know you will say how cruel that God set up Abel

Oh no, I don't say "how cruel God set up Abel"
God has been setting up me also many times
Feels really good to read I am not the only 1

 

[Jim]

“Am I Wrong To Think That There Is A God, But Not Operating In This World?”

Only if you think that it’s important for everyone to believe it.

 

[stvdv]

There is a lot of Rabbinic commentary on this story. What made most sense to me, IMHO, is that Cain's offering represented quantity and Abel's offering represented quality.

I can not find quantity and quality comparing in the Bible verses, probably interpretation. Bible is all about interpretation; can be helpful to improve one's discrimination and learn. And the verses need not even be true to accomplish that.

It says fattest, so that indicates quantity (of meat). In general Fat animals are less healthy [same as with humans], so it does not mean quality, although many humans, even today, mix up what is "tasty" and what is "healthy". And "less is more" sometimes is very true (when people overeat as a habit; used to be my habit). About the fruit is said nothing (not saying they were sour or bruised or something), so "no quality" or "quantity mentioned here either.

The only thing I see is "difference in offering" + unselfish love is missing (anger when offering not accepted)

Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 4 (Parshah Berei****)
1Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, and she said, "I have acquired a man with the Lord." אוְהָ֣אָדָ֔ם יָדַ֖ע אֶת־חַוָּ֣ה אִשְׁתּ֑וֹ וַתַּ֨הַר֙ וַתֵּ֣לֶד אֶת־קַ֔יִן וַתֹּ֕אמֶר קָנִ֥יתִי אִ֖ישׁ אֶת־יְהֹוָֽה:
2And she continued to bear his brother Abel, and Abel was a shepherd of flocks, and Cain was a tiller of the soil. בוַתֹּ֣סֶף לָלֶ֔דֶת אֶת־אָחִ֖יו אֶת־הָ֑בֶל וַֽיְהִי־הֶ֨בֶל֙ רֹ֣עֵה צֹ֔אן וְקַ֕יִן הָיָ֖ה עֹבֵ֥ד אֲדָמָֽה:
3Now it came to pass at the end of days, that Cain brought of the fruit of the soil an offering to the Lord. גוַיְהִ֖י מִקֵּ֣ץ יָמִ֑ים וַיָּבֵ֨א קַ֜יִן מִפְּרִ֧י הָֽאֲדָמָ֛ה מִנְחָ֖ה לַֽיהֹוָֽה:
4And Abel he too brought of the firstborn of his flocks and of their fattest, and the Lord turned to Abel and to his offering. דוְהֶ֨בֶל הֵבִ֥יא גַם־ה֛וּא מִבְּכֹר֥וֹת צֹאנ֖וֹ וּמֵֽחֶלְבֵהֶ֑ן וַיִּ֣שַׁע יְהֹוָ֔ה אֶל־הֶ֖בֶל וְאֶל־מִנְחָתֽוֹ:
5But to Cain and to his offering He did not turn, and it annoyed Cain exceedingly, and his countenance fell. הוְאֶל־קַ֥יִן וְאֶל־מִנְחָת֖וֹ לֹ֣א שָׁעָ֑ה וַיִּ֤חַר לְקַ֨יִן֙ מְאֹ֔ד וַיִּפְּל֖וּ פָּנָֽיו:
6And the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen?

 

[stvdv]

so God knew exactly what Cain and Abel would offer and what was to transpire
Therefore the only conclusion has to be as i said earlier

Therefore the only conclusion has to be as i said earlier
That's quite a stretch ... I won't go that far ... I would agree to
Therefore my only conclusion has to be as i said earlier

As regards the vegan issue, the rules of Eden, no longer applied when we left the garden as we had freewill

I see it different then Christians. I like Sanathana Dharma ... Paradise is available "right this moment" ... no need to postpone

I think you are holding your magnifying glass to close on this one!

Maybe ... maybe not

 

[viole]

Genesis 9:6 reads to me as Whoever sheds the blood of man through man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man.

Remember this is the voice of God, not a prophet, not a messiah, this is God. In the beginning of all the Abrahamic holy books God makes a statement . For me it states that even the worst possible crime, that of murder is to be dealt with by human hands.
God said this to Noah and his sons, ie the whole of humanity, which for me is also very symbolic
I also believe that God does not err, nor contradict God, because God is Perfect, all-knowing and all seeing, far into our future

The implications of this and other verses of genesis 9, (for me the essential part of The Bible) are many imo

1/ No one ever died at the hands of God, That includes Egyptians, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and everyone else
2/ There is no eternal punishment or Hell for those that committ the worst of crimes, though there is an accounting
3/ God therefore would never have extolled anyone to kill in God's name especially when one considers that God blessed us all to be fruitful and multiply through Noah and his sons, the whole of humanity and also promised never again to destroy us "for everlasting generations" (and do not make the error of saying that was by water!)
4/ God does not operate on this Earth. God has left us to it
5/ All Abrahamic religions are therefore misleading ie we are all alone on this world and will return to God when we die
6/ Because God made no religious decrees in Genesis 9 when God spoke to all humanity for all time through all of our ancestors, the Abrahamic religions are mere human inventions. the exception was we should not eat the blood of live animals

But the key thing for me is the firm belief that God spoke once only because as God would be aware of our future and the decisions we would make God would have said other things to Noah such as "Here are my 10 Commandments", teach them to your grandchildren and so on.
I have measured every verse in the texts against this idea of God as perfection, all knowing and seeing and every thing after Gen 9:19 for me is divisive human made babble. I am unable to find this perfect God after Gen 9:19


I also believe we were given complete freewill by God via the serpent and if you add this lot all together, this is how I arrive at my belief. Tell me why my thinking is wrong. I would appreciate it . No IPUs please

It would be great if you were wrong. Alas, you are not even that.

Ciao

- viole

 

[columbus]

I also believe we were given complete freewill by God via the serpent and if you add this lot all together, this is how I arrive at my belief. Tell me why my thinking is wrong. I would appreciate it . No IPUs please

One of the great things about having religious beliefs and God images is that it's absolutely impossible to demonstrate that you're wrong.

Believe anything you feel drawn to and it's just as valid as anybody else's beliefs on the subject.
Tom

 

[Lionel Refson]

Wait, really?

That's quite a stretch ... I won't go that far ... I would agree to
Therefore my only conclusion has to be as i said earlier

You are right. Apologies!

One of the great things about having religious beliefs and God images is that it's absolutely impossible to demonstrate that you're wrong.

Believe anything you feel drawn to and it's just as valid as anybody else's beliefs on the subject.
Tom

That makes sense.

 

[dybmh]

I can not find quantity and quality comparing in the Bible verses, probably interpretation. Bible is all about interpretation; can be helpful to improve one's discrimination and learn. And the verses need not even be true to accomplish that.

It says fattest, so that indicates quantity (of meat). In general Fat animals are less healthy [same as with humans], so it does not mean quality, although many humans, even today, mix up what is "tasty" and what is "healthy". And "less is more" sometimes is very true (when people overeat as a habit; used to be my habit). About the fruit is said nothing (not saying they were sour or bruised or something), so "no quality" or "quantity mentioned here either.

The only thing I see is "difference in offering" + unselfish love is missing (anger when offering not accepted)

Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 4 (Parshah Berei****)
1Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, and she said, "I have acquired a man with the Lord." אוְהָ֣אָדָ֔ם יָדַ֖ע אֶת־חַוָּ֣ה אִשְׁתּ֑וֹ וַתַּ֨הַר֙ וַתֵּ֣לֶד אֶת־קַ֔יִן וַתֹּ֕אמֶר קָנִ֥יתִי אִ֖ישׁ אֶת־יְהֹוָֽה:
2And she continued to bear his brother Abel, and Abel was a shepherd of flocks, and Cain was a tiller of the soil. בוַתֹּ֣סֶף לָלֶ֔דֶת אֶת־אָחִ֖יו אֶת־הָ֑בֶל וַֽיְהִי־הֶ֨בֶל֙ רֹ֣עֵה צֹ֔אן וְקַ֕יִן הָיָ֖ה עֹבֵ֥ד אֲדָמָֽה:
3Now it came to pass at the end of days, that Cain brought of the fruit of the soil an offering to the Lord. גוַיְהִ֖י מִקֵּ֣ץ יָמִ֑ים וַיָּבֵ֨א קַ֜יִן מִפְּרִ֧י הָֽאֲדָמָ֛ה מִנְחָ֖ה לַֽיהֹוָֽה:
4And Abel he too brought of the firstborn of his flocks and of their fattest, and the Lord turned to Abel and to his offering. דוְהֶ֨בֶל הֵבִ֥יא גַם־ה֛וּא מִבְּכֹר֥וֹת צֹאנ֖וֹ וּמֵֽחֶלְבֵהֶ֑ן וַיִּ֣שַׁע יְהֹוָ֔ה אֶל־הֶ֖בֶל וְאֶל־מִנְחָתֽוֹ:
5But to Cain and to his offering He did not turn, and it annoyed Cain exceedingly, and his countenance fell. הוְאֶל־קַ֥יִן וְאֶל־מִנְחָת֖וֹ לֹ֣א שָׁעָ֑ה וַיִּ֤חַר לְקַ֨יִן֙ מְאֹ֔ד וַיִּפְּל֖וּ פָּנָֽיו:
6And the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen?

OK... The discrimination is the first and the fattest. That is how I understand it. And it matches the preferences of offerings brought to the Temple in the holy land. First Fruits are brought to the Temple. And Fat is preferred for some offerings as a pleasing aroma ( if I remember ). I can provide links ( if it matters ).
Cain did not discriminate. Abel was choosier.

 

[stvdv]

One of the great things about having religious beliefs and God images is that it's absolutely impossible to demonstrate that you're wrong.

Great insight.
Another (not so) great thing, as a result of that, is, that religious beliefs can give your ego a big boost ... absolutely impossible to realize yourself

Believe anything you feel drawn to and it's just as valid as anybody else's beliefs on the subject.
Tom

Another Great insight.
I believe that is the major lesson to learn from Religious beliefs, and for many people a hard one to realize, because of the above "great thing"

 

[stvdv]

OK... The discrimination is the first and the fattest. That is how I understand it. And it matches the preferences of offerings brought to the Temple in the holy land. First Fruits are brought to the Temple. And Fat is preferred for some offerings as a pleasing aroma ( if I remember ). I can provide links ( if it matters ).
Cain did not discriminate. Abel was choosier.

No need for links, I understand what you mean. Still the original Bible verses say minimal about this. Just that Abel choose a fat animal to offer. Did not say that Cain picked bad or rotten apples or something. So that would all be speculation. I am not much into speculation. I might have missed some verses, but I think this is all the info the Bible gives on this story.

What I do see is simple. Both guys offer some of their work results. Cain gets rejected. Then Cain gets angry. Then God replies "why you get angry?"
These are the facts ... What I learn by this is: Why should I get angry when God rejects my gift. If I gave it from my heart (meaning not expecting anything in return as in "Selfless Service" a major spiritual practice in some religions) then God is testing my Self Confidence and sincerity (so no need to get angry), and if I gave it from my ego then also no need to get angry.

Bonus lesson: How would you feel, if you give someone a present (God gives us the fruits) and then that person comes to you and gives you the same present back, even pretending that his gift is special, while in reality it was the gift you gave him. I think that is silly to begin with. So it can not be about the gifts in these verses (1 better than the other, because in the end everything is from God).

 

[Lionel Refson]

So it can not be about the gifts in these verses (1 better than the other, because in the end everything is from God).

Thanks. You got to the same place as I did more or less. It is not about the gifts. I posted my thoughts on it somewhere above

 

[dybmh]

No need for links, I understand what you mean. Still the original Bible verses say minimal about this. Just that Abel choose a fat animal to offer. Did not say that Cain picked bad or rotten apples or something. So that would all be speculation. I am not much into speculation. I might have missed some verses, but I think this is all the info the Bible gives on this story.

Here is what I deem to be an accurate source for a reliable translation: (Genesis 4:3-4)
In it, it does not say that Cain's choice was "bad or rotten" ( respectfully, those are the words you used ). It only indicates that they were common.

"Cain brought an offering to the LORD from the fruit of the soil;
and Abel, for his part, brought the choicest of the firstlings of his flock. The LORD paid heed to Abel and his offering,"

So that would all be speculation. I am not much into speculation. I might have missed some verses, but I think this is all the info the Bible gives on this story.

What I presented is actually not at all speculation. ( It's no problem, I am very much enjoying this conversation )It is based on the simple literal translation of the words in the verse in Hebrew.

One place that anyone can go to look at the Hebrew precisely is BibleHub. On each verse, there is an option to display an interlinear version of the verse. This shows the Hebrew words and their corresponding translation. The interlinear is difficult to read because of the grammar and word order. Also, the translations are not 100% accurate, but IMHO, they are very good.

Here are links to the interlinear versions of Gen 4:3 and Gen 4:4.

hyperlink >>> biblehub.com - Genesis 4:3 Interlinear
hyperlink >>> biblehub.com - Genesis 4:4 Interlinear

Looking at the words, it is clear ( not speculation ) that Cain's offering came from the ground ( ha-adamah ) and Abel's offering was the first, it came from his flock, and it was the fattest. What I just realized, and I think it's significant, is that Abel's offering came from his own flock (tz'ohnoh). Not a random animal. A Sheppard offering one of his own animals which he cared for is certainly a higher quality offering, than a gardener who's offering comes from the earth (ha-adamah). Even the pronunciation of these words gives a clue to the difference. Tz'ohnoh, is formed by closing the mouth drawing the lips together to form a dot ( so to speak ) demonstrating discrimination. Ha-adamah is formed with a more open mouth, dropping the jaw, representing a more inclusive open choice.

This is why the commentary which describes the difference between Abel's offering and Cain's offering as a difference of Quality vs Quantity makes most sense to me. It is based on the Hebrew words that are used in the verse. ( not speculation )

Edit to add: Technically the pronunciation of the word for the ground would be pronounced ha-ahdawhmawh. Further illustrating my point that the the jaw literally drops open while pronouncing this word.

 

[Muffled]

I believe you are wrong that He doesn't operate. Here I am communicating with you.