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America is a secular nation.

Blindinglight

Disciple of Chaos
Inspired by this post:
We were founded as a Christian country.... and separation of church and state is a myth....
I am making this thread to debate this.

Given the ENORMOUS amount of evidence to prove "We the People" live in a secular nation, I will be making several post as I give more evidence, quotes, and wording from the Constitution.

First, the biggest issues, comming from the constitution. Not are the only mentionings of god and religion that it is not a requirement to hold any offices, it even states that church and state are to remain seperated.

From the first amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
This means congress cannot constitutionally pass a law that respects one religion over another. If it is permited for one religion, it must legally be permited for all of them.

From Article 6, which is self explanatory:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
That simply means you DO NOT have to be of any religion.

From article 2, which is the exact oath a President must take:
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
Where is the mentioning of God? That's right, it not official. Every four years when a President is sworn into office, the very end part of "So help me God" is unofficial.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
From the Treaty of Tripoly, Article 11, passed unanimously by congress in 1796:

"The government of the United States in not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."
 

Blindinglight

Disciple of Chaos
For this part, if you are unfimiliar with Thomas Paine, read his works. He is unarguable the most influential man in inspiring the laws of this nation. He also strongly urged this seperation of church and state.

Some of his own words;

Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, t renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as ameans of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter.

As to the book called the bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions and a history of bad times and bad men.


he most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most destructive to the peace of man since man began to exist. Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses, who gave an order to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and then rape the daughters. One of the most horrible atrocities found in the literature of any nation. I would not dishonor my Creator's name by attaching it to this filthy book.

Whence arose all the horrid assassinations of whole nations of men, women, and infants, with which the Bible is filled; and the bloody persecutions, and tortures unto death, and religiosu wars, that since that time have laid Europe in blood and ashes; whence arose they, but from this impious thing called religion, and this monstrous belief that God has spoken to man?

The story of the redemption will not stand examination. That man should redeem himself from the sin of eating an apple by committing a murder on Jesus Christ, is the strangest system of religion ever set up.


Yes, the man who spoke these words was a tremendous influence in establishing this nation. If you will read his works, you find it is mirrored in this nations early laws.


Another common name, James Madison, was not fond of religion and government mixing either.

An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against......Every new and successful example therefore of a PERFECT SEPARATION between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance........religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government.

Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.

Strongly guarded... is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States.

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.

Benjamin Franklin, another man who is of importance, said the following:

When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.

George Washington, a name everyone in this nation knows, our first President, the man who set examples, in both combat and politics, wasn't a fan of church and government either;

I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.

As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority.


I shall finish this post with quotes from John Adams, another signer of the Constitution, and a former president;

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?
[SIZE=+1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][/SIZE]This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.


All of these quotes are accurate, and from founding fathers. I will later post even more quotes establishing the fact this is a secular nation.
 
Well, good luck with that one. You're attempting to undo what years of government issue education has engrained in the minds of Americans - the false belief that this country was founded as a Christian nation.

You can offer up all the proof you can find (and there is plenty because what you're stating is true), but facts don't always sway opinion.
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
Well, good luck with that one. You're attempting to undo what years of government issue education has engrained in the minds of Americans - the false belief that this country was founded as a Christian nation.

You can offer up all the proof you can find (and there is plenty because what you're stating is true), but facts don't always sway opinion.


As a Christian, I am oh so happy to have been blessed by living in a country whose government is secular. (That is not to say the government as created by our founders was not in any way based upon their own views or Christian ideals like individual liberty. Not in the least.) The way I see it Christ is all about freedom, including freedom of religion and freedom from religion. And so is our government, and that is cool.
 

mcteethinator

Idiosyncratic Muslim
It's odd how many people say it was founded a Christian nation when half of the founding fathers were Deists.

Ever heard of the "Jefferson Bible"?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It's odd how many people say it was founded a Christian nation when half of the founding fathers were Deists.
Alot of them were also outspoken against Christianity. I think it was Paine who said "any religion that shocks the mind of a child cannot be true." Also, Ben Franklin attended many Hellfire Club meetings.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
America may have been founded as a secular government with Church and State separation, but in the past 20 years or so, it has changed into a 'Christian' nation, for no candidate who claimed to be an Atheist, or a Muslim, or a Buddist will ever stand a chance of leading US.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
From the Treaty of Tripoly, Article 11, passed unanimously by congress in 1796:

"The government of the United States in not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."
Nothing like taking a quote out of context!

Thre Treaty of Tripoli Article 11:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The presumption here is that nation = polity. One might just as easily argue that the United Stated has always been a minimally invasive Christian nation politically committed to pluralism.
 

Diogenes

Member
It would be more accurate to state that this country was founded on Freemasonry. All of the signers of the Declaration of Independence except for 1 were masons. All the freedoms granted by the Constitution were taken from the ideals and bylaws of the Masons. Masons even prophesied about finding a 'new world' long before the finding of the 'new world'.
.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
It's odd how many people say it was founded a Christian nation when half of the founding fathers were Deists.

Ever heard of the "Jefferson Bible"?
In reality only a few of the founding fathers were Deists. It is also true that the constitution mirrors many Christian principles and the founding fathrs believed that Christian morals were an essential part of wisely being able to serve our country.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
America may have been founded as a secular government with Church and State separation, but in the past 20 years or so, it has changed into a 'Christian' nation, for no candidate who claimed to be an Atheist, or a Muslim, or a Buddist will ever stand a chance of leading US.
I believe that makes us a nation free to chosse our leaders.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nothing like taking a quote out of context!

Thre Treaty of Tripoli Article 11:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

How is this out of context? There is nothing in the complete reading to suggest the US were a Christian nation.

The US was a product of the Enlightwnment. It was an experiment in progressive Humanism.
Fundamentalist Christians are un-American. Perhaps they should leave....
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
How is this out of context? There is nothing in the complete reading to suggest the US were a Christian nation.
It is what comes after the semi-colon, which I bolded, that qualifies the statement. This is funamental rules of the English language which means that the previous stament is not a declaritive statement but qualified by what comes after it.
 

Bathsheba

**{{}}**
I always get a little misty eyed when somebody rebuffs the craptacular Christian-nation nonsense.

You gotta love the quotes on this webpage: What They Said About Religion

My favorite ...
When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one. Benjamin Franklin

Anybody here read Alan Dershowitz's recent book "Blasphemy: How the Religious Right is Hijacking the Declaration of Independence" Point of Inquiry » Episode Archive » Alan Dershowitz - Blasphemy If you don't want to pick up the book you can just listen to the discussion between Dershowitz and DJ, well worth it I do say.
 
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