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American Civil War was about Slavery.

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It was about slavery as an economic issue, yes. However, those who're saying that the North was unfair to the South prior to the war..

The South held far, far, far more power in the Federal Government than the North did, despite the North having a larger population. The South dominated both the Senate and Congress, and if it voted as a block (which it tended to do), they could pass nigh-any legislation they pleased. The Gag Rule comes to mind. The United States was effectively ran by the South until around the 1850s-1860s, and when it became clear the South couldn't bully the rest of the Union, it decided to take its ball and go home.
Its true the South had more representation in the govt, but the South flipped out when Lincoln became president. The capital cities of Washington and Philadelphia were in the North, far away from most Southern states; and back then that mattered a bit more than it does now. Everything federal happened in the North and every decision was made in the North, and people found out about it after the fact.

Fort Sumter. Confederate sponsorship of rebellions in Pro-Union(and later Neutral) Tennessee. The kidnapping and enslavement or re-enslavement of freed blacks. Bleeding Kansas. Other seizures of Federal Property. The South is the one who provoked the war. Lee agreed with this, but fought on the side of the CSA anyway because he couldn't stomach the thought of shooting his neighbours.
I was afraid you'd show up! :p
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Couple quick questions. What does slavery as an economic issue mean, and why would it not perceived as... I don't know, a political or moral issue?
The prosperity of the South had been built(literally) on the existence of free forced labour, this compounded with the ability of slave owners to count their slaves as votes(one vote per three male slaves). Because of that, a good chunk of Abolitionism in the North was motivated by economic interest. The 'Free Soil" movement is a good example, as they opposed the expansion of slavery because, well, it's impossible to compete with free labour. In the South, the view was the opposite. Slavery is what kept the South competitive and in many cases, dominant over the rest of the United States.

Because of this the majority of the moral arguments were secondary to the arguments regarding simple self-interest. In the South, the Planter class tried to justify slavery to lower-class(often poverty-stricken) whites as the "natural state of the negro", and claimed that the North was going to "set the savages free" to rape white women and the like. They used this argument to fig-leaf their real concern, namely that if slavery were abolished then the lower-class whites would demand higher wages, as they would no longer be competing with literally-free labour. The Planter class obviously had a vested interest in avoiding such a development. In the North, the notion of freeing the slaves, to "rescue the Negro from his plight" did not gain serious ground until the Civil War began, when pictures and stories of the brutal treatment of some slaves started to spread.

Economic concerns were still at the fore for the North, but as the Civil War continued it slowly began to take on a genuine moral dimension, even if the average Northerner was still incredibly racist. In the South, the moral arguments(the ones involving the "savage negro" and the like) took on a life of their own as the war turned invariably against them, especially when they saw the North arming former slaves. This caused panic in some areas, with the worst of it being in Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Arkansas...all the places Blacks had it worst during the slow trudge towards Civil Rights.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
It was about slavery as an economic issue, yes. However, those who're saying that the North was unfair to the South prior to the war..

The South held far, far, far more power in the Federal Government than the North did, despite the North having a larger population. The South dominated both the Senate and Congress, and if it voted as a block (which it tended to do), they could pass nigh-any legislation they pleased. The Gag Rule comes to mind. The United States was effectively ran by the South until around the 1850s-1860s, and when it became clear the South couldn't bully the rest of the Union, it decided to take its ball and go home.


Fort Sumter. Confederate sponsorship of rebellions in Pro-Union(and later Neutral) Tennessee. The kidnapping and enslavement or re-enslavement of freed blacks. Bleeding Kansas. Other seizures of Federal Property. The South is the one who provoked the war. Lee agreed with this, but fought on the side of the CSA anyway because he couldn't stomach the thought of shooting his neighbours.

My initial response was a joke, but since it went over your head...

Lincoln, in his 1860 win of the presidency, vowed to keep slavery from expanding into the western territories, thus land locking the slave states. It was after that little event that the Southern states started seceding. Historians have been arguing about the Civil War for decades, so I doubt anything will be accomplished by us.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
My initial response was a joke, but since it went over your head...
You'll have to forgive me, as your posting history doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

Lincoln, in his 1860 win of the presidency, vowed to keep slavery from expanding into the western territories, thus land locking the slave states. It was after that little event that the Southern states started seceding. Historians have been arguing about the Civil War for decades, so I doubt anything will be accomplished by us.
The South forced through the Kansas-Nebraska act. That they(barring perhaps Sam Houston, Lee and some other notable gentlemen whos names escape me) couldn't fathom they would fail in making a useful number of new slave states out of the West is hardly the North's fault. They are the ones who tore up and spat upon the Missouri Compromise, not the North. The Planter Class reacted like a child throwing a temper-tantrum when they weren't given every little thing they demanded. The North treated the South with kid-gloves from 1820 onwards. The Fugitive Slave Act, one of the most disgusting pieces of legislation in World History, let alone merely American History, was passed to placate the South. And then the South proceeded to use it as excuse to kidnap and enslave those Blacks who'd managed to gain emancipation through one means or another or had simply never been slaves at all.

The only thing the North did wrong was letting the South constantly have its way. Lincoln wasn't going to end slavery, his goal was just to prevent its spread into Cuba, Mexico and Central America. The bulk of the Western Territories had long since been decided, and it was clear that barring the potential of the New Mexico-Arizona Territories, they were going to all be Free States. And Lincoln had no part in that, that'd been clear for a while.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Slightly off topic but here is what I take from it about countries and goodness or badness: England was ahead of the USA in ending slavery. To me it seems strange, because I'd like to think of countries as good or bad to make them simple. USA rebelled from England and wanted to make a better country, yet England made a better choice first and was the example for USA. USA, meantime, fought a bloody internal war. Additionally I remember that not very long ago the most advanced and progressive country both culturally and technologically was Germany. If you wanted to learn Divinity, Chemistry, Medicine or just about anything that was always choice A just like it is with USA today. Like USA, Germany was a leader in film and all kinds of wonderful things were happening there, but suddenly unpredictably it hit a huge bump! My point is a country going through a 'Progressive phase' should make awesome choices, but its not so predictable. A 'Bad' country sometimes makes really awesome choices. Good countries should always be more progressive and better than bad countries, but instead they aren't always! Instead there seems to be no particular pattern or single predictor that tells us which way a particular country will steer. There is a false assumption among many that we are (because we're Christian or America) predictable and good in any amount, everywhere; but sometimes the moments when we think we are the best are the moments that we are worst.
 
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Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Slightly off topic but here is what I take from it about countries and goodness or badness: England was ahead of the USA in ending slavery. To me it seems strange, because I'd like to think of countries as good or bad to make them simple. USA rebelled from England and wanted to make a better country, yet England made a better choice first and was the example for USA. USA, meantime, fought a bloody internal war. Additionally I remember that not very long ago the most advanced and progressive country both culturally and technologically was Germany. If you wanted to learn Divinity, Chemistry, Medicine or just about anything that was always choice A just like it is with USA today. Like USA, Germany was a leader in film and all kinds of wonderful things were happening there, but suddenly unpredictably it hit a huge bump! My point is a country going through a 'Progressive phase' should make awesome choices, but its not so predictable. A 'Bad' country sometimes makes really awesome choices. Good countries should always be more progressive and better than bad countries, but instead they aren't always! Instead there seems to be no particular pattern or single predictor that tells us which way a particular country will steer. There is a false assumption among many that we are (because we're Christian or America) predictable and good in any amount, everywhere; but sometimes the moments when we think we are the best are the moments that we are worst.
Eh, the era of states and peoples "swinging" from one extreme to the other is well & truly over. That kind of society only worked because information regarding how other places who did something similar was hard to come by. We live in a world now, however, that all actions can be instantly witnessed by most of the planet. We're much more self-conscious of how terrible we can be. This is, without question, the greatest possible time to be alive. War is at an all-time low, poverty is shrinking, famine is being dealt with, diseases are being eradicated(despite the best efforts of the pro-disease, I mean pro-suffering, er no I mean pro-death, no wait that's not it either, anti-health, no damn it...wait, anti-vaxx dip-****, there we go).

This is a golden age by any measure, and anyone who says otherwise is so woefully uneducated as to be pitiable.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
The prosperity of the South had been built(literally) on the existence of free forced labour, this compounded with the ability of slave owners to count their slaves as votes(one vote per three male slaves). Because of that, a good chunk of Abolitionism in the North was motivated by economic interest.

Okay, you lost me already. The two things that you are using to conclude a good chuck of Abolitionism in the North doesn't follow from the premise. Just because the South had built their prosperity on the existence off of slavery, why would it automatically follow that anyone against slavery would be doing so only for this vague "economic interest." If this was compounded the fact slaves counted as 3/5 vote on behalf of their owner, what about this economic. That's not an economic interest, that's a political interest.

The 'Free Soil" movement is a good example, as they opposed the expansion of slavery because, well, it's impossible to compete with free labour. In the South, the view was the opposite. Slavery is what kept the South competitive and in many cases, dominant over the rest of the United States.

Why would anyone lump the "Free Soil" movement in with abolitionism, if the reason there is a Free Soil party is to act as an alternative to abolitionism, "The party distanced itself from abolitionism and avoided the moral problems implicit in slavery. Members emphasized instead the threat slavery would pose to free white labor and northern businessmen in the new western territories. Although abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison derided the party philosophy as "white manism,"[2] the approach appealed to many moderate opponents of slavery."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Soil_Party

It split in half, with the Whig, party, the only known reasoning for any of these parties failures are internal disagreements about slavery, and how best to end it.

Because of this the majority of the moral arguments were secondary to the arguments regarding simple self-interest.

So, because the Free Soil Party existed for 2 elections with 10% then 5% of the popular vote for president, the majority of the moral arguments were secondary to the arguments regarding self-interest?

I don't see the evidence to support the claim.

In the South, the Planter class tried to justify slavery to lower-class(often poverty-stricken) whites as the "natural state of the negro", and claimed that the North was going to "set the savages free" to rape white women and the like. They used this argument to fig-leaf their real concern, namely that if slavery were abolished then the lower-class whites would demand higher wages, as they would no longer be competing with literally-free labour. The Planter class obviously had a vested interest in avoiding such a development.

In the North, the notion of freeing the slaves, to "rescue the Negro from his plight" did not gain serious ground until the Civil War began, when pictures and stories of the brutal treatment of some slaves started to spread.

Right, so when Thomas Paine wrote African Slavery in America in 1774:

"Our Traders in MEN (an unnatural commodity!) must know the wickedness of the SLAVE-TRADE, if they attend to reasoning, or the dictates of their own hearts: and such as shun and stiffle all these, wilfully sacrifice Conscience, and the character of integrity to that golden idol.

The Managers the Trade themselves, and others testify, that many of these African nations inhabit fertile countries, are industrious farmers, enjoy plenty, and lived quietly, averse to war, before the Europeans debauched them with liquors, and bribing them against one another; and that these inoffensive people are brought into slavery, by stealing them, tempting Kings to sell subjects, which they can have no right to do, and hiring one tribe to war against another, in order to catch prisoners. By such wicked and inhuman ways the English are said to enslave towards one hundred thousand yearly; of which thirty thousand are supposed to die by barbarous treatment in the first year; besides all that are slain in the unnatural ways excited to take them. So much innocent blood have the managers and supporters of this inhuman trade to answer for to the common Lord of all!"

It's safe to conclude that the primary motive from the text was that Thomas Paine could make a **** load of money once his companies could now compete with Southern plantations?

Economic concerns were still at the fore for the North, but as the Civil War continued it slowly began to take on a genuine moral dimension, even if the average Northerner was still incredibly racist.

At what point and why?

[quopte]In the South, the moral arguments(the ones involving the "savage negro" and the like) took on a life of their own as the war turned invariably against them, especially when they saw the North arming former slaves. This caused panic in some areas, with the worst of it being in Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Arkansas...all the places Blacks had it worst during the slow trudge towards Civil Rights.

What do you mean to say? That no one was making moral arguments in support or against slavery before the war? I don't know what you mean "took on a life of their own."
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Okay, you lost me already. The two things that you are using to conclude a good chuck of Abolitionism in the North doesn't follow from the premise. Just because the South had built their prosperity on the existence off of slavery, why would it automatically follow that anyone against slavery would be doing so only for this vague "economic interest." If this was compounded the fact slaves counted as 3/5 vote on behalf of their owner, what about this economic. That's not an economic interest, that's a political interest.
I have a tendency to mix economic & political motives, if only because back then they tended to go hand in hand. The point I'm making is that until the Civil War itself very few white Americans were abolitionists because of humanism. You obviously have lists of stand-outs. But those people are remembered because they were passionate about it. Not because they represented the era.



Why would anyone lump the "Free Soil" movement in with abolitionism, if the reason there is a Free Soil party is to act as an alternative to abolitionism, "The party distanced itself from abolitionism and avoided the moral problems implicit in slavery. Members emphasized instead the threat slavery would pose to free white labor and northern businessmen in the new western territories. Although abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison derided the party philosophy as "white manism,"[2] the approach appealed to many moderate opponents of slavery."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Soil_Party

It split in half, with the Whig, party, the only known reasoning for any of these parties failures are internal disagreements about slavery, and how best to end it.



So, because the Free Soil Party existed for 2 elections with 10% then 5% of the popular vote for president, the majority of the moral arguments were secondary to the arguments regarding self-interest?

I don't see the evidence to support the claim.
Do you sincerely think the average American was genuinely taken in by the suffering of slave-hands in the South? If they were, slavery wouldn't of lasted for as long as it did past the 1830s. But it did. The average American had other things on their mind than the plight of negros down south. The only interest the person on the street took was when it started to eat into his wallet. Again, this changed as the Civil War happened, because the general mood before that was that however bad slavery might be, there was this notion that you could take the Plantation Class at their word, that they were doing what they genuinely thought was best for the "African savage". "White Man's Burden" came into being because people believed it. But then they start getting photographs of atrocities committed by the Planters, most specifically that one with the man whos' back is nothing but a solid mass of scar tissue. The beatings he took clearly were years, perhaps decades, old.



What do you mean to say? That no one was making moral arguments in support or against slavery before the war? I don't know what you mean "took on a life of their own."
That no meaningful number of people made moral arguments for/against slavery before the war. Sure you had some people, but not enough to matter on either side.
 

Juhurka

Member
I am really surprised at the OP, history is not always presented the right way and it is always tuned to the winners taste. Abolishing slavery was never the moral issue of the day. Human rights is not an issue to this day so to question peoples morals few hundred years back is very naive.

The Civil War was about tariffs and economy. You cannot compete with free labor, South was able to export cheep goods to Europe and the North was not able to compete with that so A. Lincoln concentrated on slavery not because it was wrong but because it is what allowed the South to economically dominate.

Interestingly, in Russian universities the American Civil War is always accompanied by a claim that the beneficiaries of the cheep Southern exports Britain and France planned to interfere on the side of the South and as a natural competitor to them Russia and its ally Germany threatened to join the war on the side of the North. I am not sure how correct this information is but if it is being thought in universities there must be some truth to it.

The Civil War was for economic reasons as most wars are. You can also google Greenbacks issued by A. Lincoln.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I have a tendency to mix economic & political motives, if only because back then they tended to go hand in hand. The point I'm making is that until the Civil War itself very few white Americans were abolitionists because of humanism. You obviously have lists of stand-outs. But those people are remembered because they were passionate about it. Not because they represented the era.

First, thanks for the great response. Had to sit around and think best of how to address it, and compiled random sources, etc.

Anyways, I'd argue that there was moral movement entirely independent of economic and political factors that culminated into a mass abolitionism movement. I'd argue, that they would be hardly just lists of stand-outs. It present but small in 1776. It became a grass roots movements around 1820, and grew and became adamant leading all the way up to the war. I can provide sources for this if need be. As far as exact numbers, that would be hard, since no polling, people generally not reading and writing, that would be impossible. Apparently William Lloyd Garrison had convinced a lot of people of his message from Boston.

"The American Anti-Slavery Society (AASS) (1833–1870) was an abolitionist society founded by William Lloyd Garrison and Arthur Tappan. Frederick Douglass, an escaped slave, was a key leader of this society who often spoke at its meetings. William Wells Brown was a freed slave who often spoke at meetings. By 1838, the society had 1,350 local charters with around 250,000 members.

Noted members included Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Theodore Dwight Weld, Lewis Tappan, James G. Birney, Lydia Maria Child, Maria Weston Chapman, Abby Kelley Foster, Stephen Symonds Foster, Henry Highland Garnet, Samuel Cornish, James Forten, Charles Lenox Remond,Sarah Parker Remond, Lucretia Mott, Lucy Stone, Robert Purvis, Augustine Clarke, and Wendell Phillips, John Greenleaf Whittier, among others. Headquartered in New York City, from 1840 to 1870 the society published a weekly newspaper, the National Anti-Slavery Standard."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Anti-Slavery_Society

That's just one group. With 250,000 members, in 1838. That's not taking into account just anyone who happened to share those sentiments but didn't actively campaign for it as adamantly as others did. And obviously not everyone agreed on every detail about how slavery should end.

Do you sincerely think the average American was genuinely taken in by the suffering of slave-hands in the South?

The average American? I assume the average American at the time had little to no education, couldn't read, and I'd imagine generally apathetic to issues that don't immediately affect them. But then again, the average American never changes the course in government or war, nor did average Americans start this one.

If they were, slavery wouldn't of lasted for as long as it did past the 1830s. But it did. The average American had other things on their mind than the plight of negros down south.

But many states HAD abolished slavery in their own states:

"Though anti-slavery sentiments were widespread by the late 18th century, the colonies and emerging nations that used slave labor continued to do so: French, English and Portuguese territories in the West Indies; South America; and the Southern United States.

After the American Revolution established the United States, northern states, beginning with Pennsylvania in 1780, passed legislation during the next two decades abolishing slavery, sometimes by gradual emancipation. Massachusetts ratified a constitution that declared all men equal; freedom suits challenging slavery based on this principle brought an end to slavery in the state. Vermont, which existed as an unrecognized state from 1777 to 1791, abolished adult slavery in 1777. In other states, such as Virginia, similar declarations of rights were interpreted by the courts as not applicable to Africans. During the following decades, the abolitionist movement grew in northern states, and Congress regulated the expansion of slavery in new states admitted to the union. David Brion Davis argues that the main driving force was a new moral consciousness, with an intellectual assist from the Enlightenment, and a powerful impulse from religious Quakers and evangelicals. Christian evangelicals identified slave ownership and complicity as a grave sin – one that had to be purged from the world.[2]"

The only interest the person on the street took was when it started to eat into his wallet. Again, this changed as the Civil War happened, because the general mood before that was that however bad slavery might be, there was this notion that you could take the Plantation Class at their word, that they were doing what they genuinely thought was best for the "African savage". "White Man's Burden" came into being because people believed it.

The White Man's Burden was written in 1899. By the way, same year, satirical poems were written as well.

"Pile on the Black Man’s Burden.
'Tis nearest at your door;
Why heed long bleeding Cuba,
or dark Hawaii’s shore?
Hail ye your fearless armies,
Which menace feeble folks
Who fight with clubs and arrows
and brook your rifle’s smoke.
Pile on the Black Man’s Burden
His wail with laughter drown
You’ve sealed the Red Man’s problem,
And will take up the Brown,
In vain ye seek to end it,
With bullets, blood or death
Better by far defend it
With honor’s holy breath.

Source: H.T. Johnson, “The Black Man’s Burden,” Voice of Missions, VII (Atlanta: April 1899), 1. Reprinted in Willard B. Gatewood, Jr.,Black Americans and the White Man’s Burden, 1898–1903 (Urbana: University of Illinois Press), 1975, 183–184

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5476/

But then they start getting photographs of atrocities committed by the Planters, most specifically that one with the man whos' back is nothing but a solid mass of scar tissue. The beatings he took clearly were years, perhaps decades, old."

That no meaningful number of people made moral arguments for/against slavery before the war. Sure you had some people, but not enough to matter on either side.

No meaningful number of people? Not enough to matter? But two different platforms "Free Soil" and the traditional "Whigs" were destroyed, and a new platform of the Republican party was created, on basically a single issue, of being against the Kansas-Nebraska Act.

"John C. Frémont ran as the first Republican nominee for President in 1856 behind the slogan: "Free soil, free silver, free men, Frémont and victory!" Although Frémont's bid was unsuccessful, the party showed a strong base. It dominated in New England, New York and the northern Midwest, and had a strong presence in the rest of the North. It had almost no support in the South, where it was roundly denounced in 1856–60 as a divisive force that threatened civil war.[6]

Without using the term "containment", the new Party in the mid 1850s proposed a system of containing slavery, once it gained control of the national government. Historian James Oakes explains the strategy:

The federal government would surround the south with free states, free territories, and free waters, building what they called a 'cordon of freedom' around slavery, hemming it in until the system's own internal weaknesses forced the slave states one by one to abandon slavery.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Republican_Party

If no signicant number of people were gainst slavery, why would have any voted for this brand new party that was the most staunchly anti-slavery party of all 4 options, got 1.8 million votes, 40% of the popular, where almost all of those votes were in the North, meaning that a greater than 40% rate for those of the northern population?

Am I to assume 1.8 million Americans had a direct economic tie to the end of slavery?

When Britain ended slavery decades earlier, was this done for the economic reasons, too? And France?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The Civil War was about tariffs and economy. You cannot compete with free labor, South was able to export cheep goods to Europe and the North was not able to compete with that so A. Lincoln concentrated on slavery not because it was wrong but because it is what allowed the South to economically dominate.
The North had all the factories and they could, and did, out manufacture the South. It was one of the things the North had in its favor throughout the War.
And when you say the Civil War was about the economy, the Southern economy was built upon and sustained by slave labor. And slavery is easy to compete with, because it's bad for an economy. It's great for the owners and investors (some estimates claim it had a higher return rate than investments in the railroad industry), but it's terrible for everybody else (including non-slaves, who have to work for less because they are the ones who have to compete with slave labor), and it stifles economic growth and development.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I have read and heard so many people say that the American Civil War was not only about slavery.It is very obvious it was.Here is an article that will clear this up real quick.What are your views?


http://www.upworthy.com/this-west-point-colonel-will-tell-you-what-the-civil-war-was-really-about




stephens-44fd038f8059dcf1f1ca59cfb8337412.jpg



bullets-371de2a66c93cb1d5c48a864791665fe.jpg
I would say that slavery was absolutely central to the movement, but that was because the South's economy depended on it so much. So, you could say that it was not ONLY about slavery, but also the South's intention to make it's own rules, so to speak. Many will claim that the movement was centered around freedom from the federal government and state rights, which I feel is somewhat valid.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
First, thanks for the great response. Had to sit around and think best of how to address it, and compiled random sources, etc.
Aw. Thank you. That's genuinely touching.

Anyways, I'd argue that there was moral movement entirely independent of economic and political factors that culminated into a mass abolitionism movement. I'd argue, that they would be hardly just lists of stand-outs. It present but small in 1776. It became a grass roots movements around 1820, and grew and became adamant leading all the way up to the war. I can provide sources for this if need be. As far as exact numbers, that would be hard, since no polling, people generally not reading and writing, that would be impossible. Apparently William Lloyd Garrison had convinced a lot of people of his message from Boston.

"The American Anti-Slavery Society (AASS) (1833–1870) was an abolitionist society founded by William Lloyd Garrison and Arthur Tappan. Frederick Douglass, an escaped slave, was a key leader of this society who often spoke at its meetings. William Wells Brown was a freed slave who often spoke at meetings. By 1838, the society had 1,350 local charters with around 250,000 members.

Noted members included Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Theodore Dwight Weld, Lewis Tappan, James G. Birney, Lydia Maria Child, Maria Weston Chapman, Abby Kelley Foster, Stephen Symonds Foster, Henry Highland Garnet, Samuel Cornish, James Forten, Charles Lenox Remond,Sarah Parker Remond, Lucretia Mott, Lucy Stone, Robert Purvis, Augustine Clarke, and Wendell Phillips, John Greenleaf Whittier, among others. Headquartered in New York City, from 1840 to 1870 the society published a weekly newspaper, the National Anti-Slavery Standard."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Anti-Slavery_Society

That's just one group. With 250,000 members, in 1838. That's not taking into account just anyone who happened to share those sentiments but didn't actively campaign for it as adamantly as others did. And obviously not everyone agreed on every detail about how slavery should end.
I seem to have forgotten to add the meat of my question. I apologize. I meant to say;

Do you sincerely think the average American was genuinely taken in by the suffering of slave-hands in the South, to the point they would fight and die to end it?



The average American? I assume the average American at the time had little to no education, couldn't read, and I'd imagine generally apathetic to issues that don't immediately affect them. But then again, the average American never changes the course in government or war, nor did average Americans start this one.
In so far as literacy, you may be surprised to learn that New England, Pennsylvania, New York, Maryland & Virginia had the first or second highest rates of literacy in the world.



But many states HAD abolished slavery in their own states:

"Though anti-slavery sentiments were widespread by the late 18th century, the colonies and emerging nations that used slave labor continued to do so: French, English and Portuguese territories in the West Indies; South America; and the Southern United States.

After the American Revolution established the United States, northern states, beginning with Pennsylvania in 1780, passed legislation during the next two decades abolishing slavery, sometimes by gradual emancipation. Massachusetts ratified a constitution that declared all men equal; freedom suits challenging slavery based on this principle brought an end to slavery in the state. Vermont, which existed as an unrecognized state from 1777 to 1791, abolished adult slavery in 1777. In other states, such as Virginia, similar declarations of rights were interpreted by the courts as not applicable to Africans. During the following decades, the abolitionist movement grew in northern states, and Congress regulated the expansion of slavery in new states admitted to the union. David Brion Davis argues that the main driving force was a new moral consciousness, with an intellectual assist from the Enlightenment, and a powerful impulse from religious Quakers and evangelicals. Christian evangelicals identified slave ownership and complicity as a grave sin – one that had to be purged from the world.[2]"

Slavery in the North died the way it did because it was becoming a drain on their economy. Due largely to the Northern economy shifting focus to the sale and trade of manufactured goods, slavery became a liability. So yes, they did indeed emancipate their negroes. But they were able to do so as swiftly as they had because of how relatively useless the practice had become north of the Mason-Dixon line. In this instance, economic factors are what made emancipation palatable to the rich and middle-classes. And again, I am not saying there were no people dedicated to ending slavery even if it would've destroyed the economy. Those people are heroes. But they are also rather rare.

Regarding the Enlightenment and its impact; it certainly helped. No doubts there. But abolishing slavery in the South was still something very few in the North were willing to pay for in blood. Many were, mind. But many more simply were not. It takes a special person to be willing to die and kill for a moral cause, especially when it was obvious that said cause would mean fighting, killing and being killed by friends and family. That portion of the war cannot possibly be over-stated. It's one thing to fight a distant enemy in a far-off land. It's a whole other to fight your family. To know that your shot, your bayonet or your cannonball might blow out your bother's brain, remove your uncle's leg, or pierce the heart of your eldest nephew.



The White Man's Burden was written in 1899. By the way, same year, satirical poems were written as well.

"Pile on the Black Man’s Burden.
'Tis nearest at your door;
Why heed long bleeding Cuba,
or dark Hawaii’s shore?
Hail ye your fearless armies,
Which menace feeble folks
Who fight with clubs and arrows
and brook your rifle’s smoke.
Pile on the Black Man’s Burden
His wail with laughter drown
You’ve sealed the Red Man’s problem,
And will take up the Brown,
In vain ye seek to end it,
With bullets, blood or death
Better by far defend it
With honor’s holy breath.

Source: H.T. Johnson, “The Black Man’s Burden,” Voice of Missions, VII (Atlanta: April 1899), 1. Reprinted in Willard B. Gatewood, Jr.,Black Americans and the White Man’s Burden, 1898–1903 (Urbana: University of Illinois Press), 1975, 183–184

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5476/
Should've been more clear. I wasn't referring literally to "White Man's Burden" as the publication, but as a term purely to describe the more patriarchal arguments one found on the pro-slave side.



No meaningful number of people? Not enough to matter? But two different platforms "Free Soil" and the traditional "Whigs" were destroyed, and a new platform of the Republican party was created, on basically a single issue, of being against the Kansas-Nebraska Act.

"John C. Frémont ran as the first Republican nominee for President in 1856 behind the slogan: "Free soil, free silver, free men, Frémont and victory!" Although Frémont's bid was unsuccessful, the party showed a strong base. It dominated in New England, New York and the northern Midwest, and had a strong presence in the rest of the North. It had almost no support in the South, where it was roundly denounced in 1856–60 as a divisive force that threatened civil war.[6]

Without using the term "containment", the new Party in the mid 1850s proposed a system of containing slavery, once it gained control of the national government. Historian James Oakes explains the strategy:

The federal government would surround the south with free states, free territories, and free waters, building what they called a 'cordon of freedom' around slavery, hemming it in until the system's own internal weaknesses forced the slave states one by one to abandon slavery.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Republican_Party

If no signicant number of people were gainst slavery, why would have any voted for this brand new party that was the most staunchly anti-slavery party of all 4 options, got 1.8 million votes, 40% of the popular, where almost all of those votes were in the North, meaning that a greater than 40% rate for those of the northern population?

Am I to assume 1.8 million Americans had a direct economic tie to the end of slavery?
What I'm going to say might sound like I'm talking down to you, I promise that's not my intent(on the contrary, you're far better than most people I get into these types of debates with, you actually do your homework, and you've even enlightened me or at least jogged my memory of things I'd forgotten, and for that I thank you greatly, this is actually enjoyable);

I don't think you fully appreciate just how massive the impact of slavery was in America. It was the literal building-blocks of most of the country, and remained so for decades. All farmers, across the country, had to deal with the fact that they could almost never undercut slave-produced products. Simply could not be done. Slavery meant that the average Planter could sell his crops cheaper than someone who used paid(and thus white) labor and still make a far bigger margin of profit. And that meant that the textile industries in the North would buy Southern cotton because they too could make their wares cheaper and sell them with a larger margin of profit.

Crops like tobacco, cotton, rice and so on could be produced in large quantities(and in the case of tobacco and cotton they were also of high quality) and could undercut their competition.

There is also another facet of slave use that is often over-looked. There were slave-mines as well. Iron, coal, salt, sulphur...

You see where I'm going with this, I believe.

When Britain ended slavery decades earlier, was this done for the economic reasons, too? And France?
In the case of Britain & France, it was a mixture of the two, though in the case of Britain(the one I'm most familiar with) I am aware that, to their credit, it was indeed largely a moral outcry by both Crown and Subject. However, Britain has a far, far, far different cultural history than the Colonies that eventually became (to use period-appropriate terminology) These States United. For instance, a Negro who found his way to England was immediately a Freeman, regardless of how he or why he had made it there. However in the Americas, Slavery had been a way of life almost since the beginning of the colonization.

I would say that slavery was absolutely central to the movement, but that was because the South's economy depended on it so much. So, you could say that it was not ONLY about slavery, but also the South's intention to make it's own rules, so to speak. Many will claim that the movement was centered around freedom from the federal government and state rights, which I feel is somewhat valid.
It was entirely about states' rights. A state's right to own people as little more than farm-equipment that could sing & breed.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
egarding the Enlightenment and its impact; it certainly helped. No doubts there. But abolishing slavery in the South was still something very few in the North were willing to pay for in blood.
If you read through the literature of the day, there were more people concerned about the rampant alcoholism (except they didn't have that word back then) than slavery. North or South, to publicly speak of the plight of the slaves was to be a rabble rouser and was frowned upon. It seems, to commoner of the time, that most weren't even exactly sure why the Civil War was being fought in the first place. Most people back then, like most people today, just wanted to live out their lives without all the complications and what-not that the state was making into a big ruckus. Of course many where concerned about slavery, but their voices were often muted by those who were more concerned about temperance and spreading the seeds of what we call today the second and third Great Awakenings.
 
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Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Interestingly, in Russian universities the American Civil War is always accompanied by a claim that the beneficiaries of the cheep Southern exports Britain and France planned to interfere on the side of the South and as a natural competitor to them Russia and its ally Germany threatened to join the war on the side of the North. I am not sure how correct this information is but if it is being thought in universities there must be some truth to it.
Prussia, not yet Germany. The Kaiserreich wouldn't be for another 10 or so years(1871).

Also, your mention of Britain & France...that's not quite true. You refer to them as if they conducted diplomacy in concert with one another. That is not at all true (yet). They were still very much rivals, and one of the fears of the other going to war to aid the south was that their opposite number would then go to war to help whoever the other did not. In fact, Britain & France would nigh-on come to blows just 15 or so years after the end of the ACW regarding Morocco.

And your mention of Russia on the side of the Union is another one of the great ironies of history. Russia had not yet even abolished its Serfdom(well, technically it did so in 1861 but the decree came into effect gradually). While serfs were not property persay, and you could not buy & sell people, it was still only a step or so above slavery. The key difference being that a serf was tied to the plot of land, which could be sold(and thus the serfs would go with the land) while a slave was property in and of itself, and could be sold with or without the land they were working at the time.
 
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dust1n

Zindīq
Aw. Thank you. That's genuinely touching.

No problem. Sorry for late reply. Server being down over the week threw off my long response schedule. Now I got to find one of Legion's threads.

I seem to have forgotten to add the meat of my question. I apologize. I meant to say;

Do you sincerely think the average American was genuinely taken in by the suffering of slave-hands in the South, to the point they would fight and die to end it?

No. But I don't think the average American was genuinely taken in by the suffering of white farm workers that weren't themselves or the inability to displace immigrants to the West to start farms, to the point they fight and die to end it either.

Some stuff:

In every war, combat soldiers leave family and lovers to crawl through unspeakably mangled human flesh in mud and blood. When soldiers go into battle, their hearts pound, their palms sweat, their stomachs turn, their sweat turns cold, their hands can tremble, they sometimes lose control of their bladders and bowels. In battle they see "the full complement of backs broken in two, of arms twisted wholly off; of men impaled upon their own bayonets; of legs smashed up like bits of firewood; of heads sliced open like apples, of other heads crunched into jelly by iron hoofs of horses." [1] When war moves through a place, it leaves a terrible residue. In Vicksburg, the "innumerable graves all about these parts, of soldiers and blacks" buried "so shallow as to emit an exceeding[ly] offensive smell," shocked travelers and attracted crows a full year after that city fell to Union forces. [2] The horrors soldiers face focus the mind, making political debate less abstract.

Soldiers must search their souls for the courage to do appalling things. And Civil War soldiers did things no modern soldier would do, throwing themselves into suicidal attacks against impossible objectives. To find the wellsprings of Civil War valor, James McPherson has read 249 diaries and at least 25,000 letters of 1,076 Civil War soldiers. "It would be close to the truth," he writes, "to say that Civil War soldiers wrote" For Cause and Comrades."They articulated their motives for fighting far above my poor power to add or detract" (vii). [3] Civil War soldiers were more literate than any previous generation of warriors. Their scribbled diaries and Page [End Page 85] letters home crowd the shelves of state archives. Brown ink on yellowing paper records the thoughts of sweating men paused along roads on the way to war. Sometimes they jotted down their thoughts in the midst of battle, crouching behind a tree just before or after an attack. These passages have the power of immediacy; their authors might die at any moment. Where the words end and the blank pages begin can mark a moving realization for the researcher comfortably seated in a modern archives. These soldiers wanted to articulate to families back home their understandings of war and why they fought. The record they left behind is intimate, personal, and private—authentic. McPherson came to feel he genuinely knew many Civil War soldiers better than most of his living acquaintances.

But while soldiers honestly worked hard to get their feelings accurately down on paper, sometimes even they had trouble figuring it all out. Soldiers quarreled with messmates; captors challenged their prisoners' ideas. When northerners insisted they fought only for a legal principle, preservation of the government, Confederates would not believe it. [4] And the sheer volume of writing challenges easy conclusions. With so many thousands of men writing, struggling to explicate the meaning of their war, no single, clear sentiment stands out...

The revolt against romanticism inspired by World War II influenced Wiley but so too did ideas he could less easily comprehend. Wiley wrote before the civil rights awakening of the 1950s and 1960s. Histories of slavery, the Civil War, and Reconstruction written before the civil rights era are strikingly different from those composed during and after that tumultuous time. In 1906, the historian James Ford Rhodes expressed wonderment that anyone could advocate enfranchising "such a mass of ignorance" as African Americans.[10] A year later William Dunning called federal efforts to protect black rights "a far-reaching despotism."[11] In such Page [End Page 88] frankly racist times, the notion of the Civil War as a crusade for racial equality seemed ridiculous.

The rival myths that northerners and southerners developed about the Civil War measure the state of American race relations. Some northerners denied southern distinctiveness, insisted on national unity, and called southerners' regionalism a "myth." They followed Andrew Johnson who had resisted congressional Reconstruction efforts by claiming southern states had never really seceded. [12] Northerners became quite comfortable with a fiction: there was no North and certainly no South. White northerners adopted those features of southern culture they liked. So, since northerners admired the streak of rebelliousness manifest in the South, they made it a characteristic of all Americans. After 1880, Union veterans increasingly socialized with their former enemies, holding joint blue-gray memorial services. In this period, northerners found they could distinguish southerners' admirable traits, their "manly daring," from the evil disloyalty of their treason.[13] Later, a high school in Chicago chose the "Rebel" as its mascot. The heroes of a 1980s network television program piloted a car called the "Robert E. Lee." White America was one nation, indivisible and spunky. In this environment, historians of the North could ignore the South and still claim to write the history of America. [14]

This unification narrative played an important role in preparations for the Spanish-American War and World War I. Ex-Confederate and ex-Union veterans joined hands to promote national solidarity.[15] Hoping to unify the nation against the German enemy in Page [End Page 89] World War I, Congress appropriated money for great blue-gray reunions, and the U.S. Army provided tents, transportation, and food. The Vicksburg Evening Post chronicled one event. The army officer assigned to organize logistics for the reunion held at Vicksburg predicted the gathering would promote patriotism "and that is what we need in war time" (Evening Post, Oct. 3, 1917). One Confederate veteran told his fellows, "I was in the Confederate army because I knew the cause was right, but now we are a reunited people and the common cause is right and we are for the United States" (Oct. 15, 1917). He could say that because the northerners seemed to have embraced essentially southern racial values. When black bands played Dixie, the crowd of veterans "went wild." Black waiters "cake walked" (Oct. 16, 1917).

Southern newspapers published drawings of elderly Union and Confederate veterans saluting young doughboys marching off to World War I (Vicksburg Evening Post, Oct. 15, 1917). One old veteran dutifully espoused the national patriotism expected of him: "If they would turn this company against the Germans we would make a showing, my boy. We fought once and could do it again" (Oct. 16, 1917). Newspapers reported that ex-Confederate and ex-Union soldiers camped in Vicksburg engaged in "brotherly chatter" (Oct. 16, 1917).

From our vantage point at the end of the twentieth century, we can see clearly that contemporaries exaggerated their picture of reconciled sections. Reading old newsprint carefully, the modern researcher can discern traces of discord amid the rage militaire. Unbrotherly chatter suggests that some of the veterans did not fully accept their new role as champions of national patriotism. The Vicksburg Evening Post admitted that some soldiers "refought the war" at the 1917 Vicksburg Reunion, their voices rising as they "sang the praises of favorite commanders" (Oct. 16, 1917). Tensions ran deeper than that. One old Union soldier refused to board a truck filled with his former enemies. "That wagon is full of Johnny- Page [End Page 90] Rebs. They might throw me out," he exclaimed. Told it would cost a quarter to ride the taxi, he retorted, "I don't care if it costs $500. I won't trust myself with those Johnny-Rebs" (Oct. 16, 1917). In fact, the newspapers downplayed the real tensions at the camp. Some of the elderly veterans exchanged blows with their canes in what old Vicksburgers later called "the walking stick war." [16]

After World War I, tensions between North and South slowly reasserted themselves. The Montgomery bus boycott, the freedom rides, the Edmund G. Pettis Bridge, and Birmingham became the battlegrounds of the civil rights movement, monuments to the North's revitalized realization of southern distinctiveness. Northerners had to soften their own racism for this to happen. Before the 1950s the most sympathetic white historians could do no better than to depict African Americans as passive victims. The historian Joel Williamson concedes that he hardly knew of lynching before the mid-1960s.[17] As racism faded, the history changed. In 1988 Reid Mitchell described himself as "a post–desegregation-of-the-New-Orleans-public-school-system historian."[18] Historians of slavery and Reconstruction have revised their understandings of blacks' agency and the plight of freed slaves. Northern efforts to "reconstruct" the South once seemed too radical; now some scholars have found them fundamentally conservative.[19]

Scholars have increasingly come to see the Confederacy as a symbol of evil linked to racism and slavery and northern troops as soldiers for freedom. Scholars began to find that ideology motivated Union and southern soldiers. Reid Mitchell insists that "whatever caused the Civil War, it was fought in the name of freedom."[20] Earl J. Hess argues strongly that ideology motivated northerners. The myth of the lost cause, he insists, romanticized what the North destroyed and "sapped the war for the Union of its moralistic implications." [21] Mark Grimsley joins Hess in seeking to restore those moralistic implications. His recent book, The Hard Hand of War, sees an evolution in soldiers' thinking as the war progressed. Instead of shedding their initial ideology, as Linderman claims, Grimsley's soldiers became more ideological. Union troops became more willing to inflict "hard war" on southern civilians.[22] Randall C. Jimerson writes that the North understood the war as a "holy crusade," fought to the tune of the "Battle Hymn of the Republic." He quotes a New Jersey soldier as saying, "God required obedience to law and order."[23] John Keegan writes, "The Blue and the Gray [were] the first truly ideological armies of history" (McPherson, 94)

As McPherson points out, his book comes in the aftermath of the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War made some understandings of the Civil War experience untenable. Before Vietnam, southern boys asked their fathers if it was true the United States had never lost a war. We did lose one war, they explained, but it took four Yankees to beat one Confederate. Unquestionably, the North had a tremendous advantage over the South.[24] One county in Connecticut manufactured more firearms than the entire South. Only a quarter of the soldiers mobilized for the Civil War fought in grey uniforms. All of this once seemed sufficient to explain the outcome of the Civil War. But the Vietnam War changed that calculus, teaching that massive military advantage does not guarantee victory. Like World War II GIs, American soldiers in Vietnam dismissed patriotic rhetoric as a "crock" or "crap." But unlike the World War II genera- Page [End Page 92] tion, they did not think all ideology was a "crock." Some believed their North Vietnamese foes "knew what they were fighting for" and that made a difference (McPherson, 91). The lesson could be generalized: soldiers with a cause won wars...


The heart of McPherson's book begins in chapter 7. His chapters on the initial impulse to fight, soldiers' first combat, officers' need to appear brave, religion, and primary group cohesion all show how Civil War soldiers shared universal attributes with all soldiers, at all times, in any war. Chapter 7 makes the argument that despite such universals, Civil War soldiers fought for ideological motives. In making this argument he takes on Wiley and Linderman, insisting that "ideological motifs almost leap from many pages" of soldiers' diaries and letters (91). Soldiers eagerly read newspapers, organized debates on political issues, and voted. As the war progressed, their commitment to ideology became stronger, not weaker.

For the researcher, whether McPherson is right depends in part on which soldier's words are encountered. Anyone reading the diary of Illinois soldier James Boyd, for example, soon learns that McPherson is right. Ideological motivations do leap off the pages. On August 21, 1861, Boyd wrestled with his conscience in his Decatur, Illinois, home. "Immense military preparations under Maj Gen Fremont at St. Louis," he recorded in his diary. "I have an intense anxiety to participate," he wrote, exploring his feelings stream-of-conscious style. Despite his "anxiety" to join Frémont's army, Boyd wrote, "Feel disposed to complain at fortune if I leave." A young lawyer, Boyd had debts and a large family—six children—and, "For the first time as yet, now have a fair chance to build a good legal Reputation." Boyd strongly wanted to devote himself to his profession. "Yet my country calls loud and distinct—irresistible." Boyd could see that issues vital to the nation were at stake: "Shall Republics cease? Shall monarchy[,] oligarchy or anarchy" Page [End Page 94] prevail? But, still, "If I go & get killed my estate would be insolvent." Boyd teetered between his personal responsibilities and duty to his nation. On August 21, he wrote, "I must go—must fight." Boyd did not doubt the North must fight: "The tug being do we have a cohesive Gov with real sinews or only a rope of sand—allowing the states to withdraw." On September 6, Boyd joined the 116th Illinois becoming a lieutenant colonel. [26]

Andrew Jackson played an important role in Boyd's thinking, and historians arguing for the power of ideas in the Civil War era have not emphasized Jackson enough. For those on the Union side inclined to justify themselves through ideology, Jackson played a critical role. Confronted with South Carolina's ordinance of nullification, Jackson declared ringingly, "The Constitution of the United States ... forms a government, not a league." In the context of South Carolina's threat to leave the Union and fight for its right to do so, Jackson's determined insistence that the national government represented "all the people" stirred the souls of many patriots. [27] Jackson fashioned an ideology that Lincoln could wield against secession but, more than that, Jackson contributed to the "mystic chords of memory" that motivated ordinary soldiers a generation later. Boyd wrote that Jackson had faced the same issue in 1832, and Boyd joined the 116th Illinois partly because of that fact.[28] Ideology made a difference for some southern civilians as well. Born in 1801, Debby Clark told interviewers after the war that her grandfather fought in the Revolutionary War and her brother served with Andrew Jackson in the War of 1812. "I believe in General Jackson," she stoutly declared, "and did not think it was right to destroy what he saved." Living outside of Vicksburg, in the heart of the Confederacy, Clark expressed herself "very bitterly about Confederate soldiers." They would die of hunger or thirst before she aided them. Neighbors regarded Clark as dangerously outspoken; Confederate provosts sometimes arrested and jailed dissenters. Her willingness to risk arrest and prison makes her commitment to Jacksonian ideals all the more remarkable.[29] Page [End Page 95]

Reading the words Boyd and Clark wrote so long ago might leave a scholar wondering how Wiley managed to get it so wrong. Clearly, ideology pops off manuscript pages. But ideology is really only part of the question. Soldiers from the North and South alike asked, What kind of people are we? Deciding not to be ideological is itself an act of self-definition with ideological implications. Soldiers define not just themselves but their culture; they make the history that succeeding generations live with. Southerners accused northerners of abolitionism and of representing an industrialized, impersonal, bureaucratic state. Some northern soldiers first angrily refuted such charges, but some came to wonder if those words were not true. We still wonder. Such musings matter because they form our own mystic chords of memory. As American soldiers learned in World War II, there is power in coldly organized bureaucratic might. While soldiers like Boyd and civilians like Clark support McPherson's thesis, some soldiers thought they could tolerate the long grind of war better by eschewing ideology and patriotic rhetoric. William J. Kennedy instructed his wife to tell a neighbor that "if I was, as he is, a black abolishionist, I could not stay a way from home as long as I have." Kennedy was no abolitionist, as he reminded his wife: "As I am not, I must finish my job[;] it wont take long if his class and the Copper Heads will stop fighting at home." Kennedy did not really try to understand why his nation went to war, "but I have confidence in old Abe and will trust to him." [30]

Kennedy's letters home suggest a centralization of power characteristic of modern America. An explosive growth of central state authority has rationalized authority by shrinking decentralized institutions. To the extent that soldiers such as Kennedy saw themselves as cogs in a vast, bureaucratic machine, the roots of the modern bureaucratic culture can be found in the Civil War.[31] Tracing those roots to the Civil War and the writings of heroic ancestors makes them more legitimate.

Kennedy's letters also suggest the importance of great leaders. Ordinary people sometimes merely reflect leaders' rhetoric. Abraham Lincoln—and not just ordinary soldiers—influenced McPherson's understanding of why soldiers fought. As the Kennedy let- Page [End Page 96] ters demonstrate, Lincoln reached the minds and pens of at least some Union soldiers. The power of his words continues to reach writers even today. Obviously, Lincoln crafted phrases with penetrating insight and that alone would have immortalized his thoughts. But his influence runs even deeper. His speeches formed an intellectual narrative that profoundly summarized and shaped northern thought, reaching into soldiers' diaries and letters. The man who in 1858 declared that blacks' physical differences meant they could never vote, be jurors, or marry whites made slaves into soldiers for freedom and endorsed African American suffrage in his last speech. Lincoln's odyssey from racism created a layer of meaning no historian can escape. For scholars living in a world anxious to escape or at least ameliorate racism, Lincoln's journey appeals mightily. His influence is inescapable. There is no way ordinary soldiers can "write" a book about the Civil War through the mind and hand of a modern scholar free of Lincoln's influence.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/26...ought-in-the-civil-war?rgn=main;view=fulltext

Sorry, I tried to cut to the most pertinent parts there, but ya know how it is.

In so far as literacy, you may be surprised to learn that New England, Pennsylvania, New York, Maryland & Virginia had the first or second highest rates of literacy in the world.

Thanks I didn't know that.

I found as high as 80% literacy in the white population, though too lazy to get like the most correct number.

You might like this though:

http://freakonomics.com/2011/09/01/were-colonial-americans-more-literate-than-americans-today/

I suspect people who could read back then were probably better readers than they are now, what with the need be to speak all old-timey and also, it was probably legitimately the most entertaining thing to do for a few centuries with the printing press and all-- and once you start fighting the war, than a primary "friend-based" ideology kicks in that precedes most other motivations.

Slavery in the North died the way it did because it was becoming a drain on their economy. Due largely to the Northern economy shifting focus to the sale and trade of manufactured goods, slavery became a liability. So yes, they did indeed emancipate their negroes. But they were able to do so as swiftly as they had because of how relatively useless the practice had become north of the Mason-Dixon line. In this instance, economic factors are what made emancipation palatable to the rich and middle-classes.

Let's consider if this is true. If slavery was a drain on the northern economies, then why would slavery be a concern to the majority of Northerners who, for the most part, just purchased large quantities of goods from plantation owners in business, and worked in fields other than agriculture? If anything, the war effort ended up costing more money for more people with no real clear economic gain.

culture-and-economics.png


http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/civil-war-overview/northandsouth.html

Northerners were generally more wealthier, even with wage labor and incredible intake of immigrant labor, and egregious business practices, already. So what economic motivation does the average northerner have, maybe other than being a solider makes more money than some of the other options?

And again, I am not saying there were no people dedicated to ending slavery even if it would've destroyed the economy. Those people are heroes. But they are also rather rare.

Yeah, those guys and tons of women too, were well ahead of their time.

Regarding the Enlightenment and its impact; it certainly helped. No doubts there. But abolishing slavery in the South was still something very few in the North were willing to pay for in blood. Many were, mind. But many more simply were not. It takes a special person to be willing to die and kill for a moral cause, especially when it was obvious that said cause would mean fighting, killing and being killed by friends and family. That portion of the war cannot possibly be over-stated. It's one thing to fight a distant enemy in a far-off land. It's a whole other to fight your family. To know that your shot, your bayonet or your cannonball might blow out your bother's brain, remove your uncle's leg, or pierce the heart of your eldest nephew.

I suspect that the majority of dudes who go to war and have gone to war in the past, are generally motivated by (and more likely to be compliant to a draft) off a mix of personal reasons, both economic and moral, and out of the vague notions of adventurism, and great societal expectations, but probably not so much blunder as a typical war.

Should've been more clear. I wasn't referring literally to "White Man's Burden" as the publication, but as a term purely to describe the more patriarchal arguments one found on the pro-slave side.
Fair enough.

What I'm going to say might sound like I'm talking down to you, I promise that's not my intent(on the contrary, you're far better than most people I get into these types of debates with, you actually do your homework, and you've even enlightened me or at least jogged my memory of things I'd forgotten, and for that I thank you greatly, this is actually enjoyable);

It's all good.

I don't think you fully appreciate just how massive the impact of slavery was in America. It was the literal building-blocks of most of the country, and remained so for decades. All farmers, across the country, had to deal with the fact that they could almost never undercut slave-produced products. Simply could not be done. Slavery meant that the average Planter could sell his crops cheaper than someone who used paid(and thus white) labor and still make a far bigger margin of profit. And that meant that the textile industries in the North would buy Southern cotton because they too could make their wares cheaper and sell them with a larger margin of profit.

Crops like tobacco, cotton, rice and so on could be produced in large quantities(and in the case of tobacco and cotton they were also of high quality) and could undercut their competition.

There is also another facet of slave use that is often over-looked. There were slave-mines as well. Iron, coal, salt, sulphur...

You see where I'm going with this, I believe.

Sure, but how many people and who was actually concerned about this and used this motivation into a war effort that eventually accumulating into the circumstances that actually started militarization? How many average planters were in the North and just how much political control did they supposedly have?

In the case of Britain & France, it was a mixture of the two, though in the case of Britain(the one I'm most familiar with) I am aware that, to their credit, it was indeed largely a moral outcry by both Crown and Subject. However, Britain has a far, far, far different cultural history than the Colonies that eventually became (to use period-appropriate terminology) These States United. For instance, a Negro who found his way to England was immediately a Freeman, regardless of how he or why he had made it there. However in the Americas, Slavery had been a way of life almost since the beginning of the colonization.

So why didn't Britain break into a war? Safe to assume that slavery wasn't concentrated all in geographical section of the country with a specific set of political and economic interests, while the other had a set of specific set of political and economic interests contingent on seeing the end of slavery.
 

TPaine

I believe in one God, and the equality of man.
I have read and heard so many people say that the American Civil War was not only about slavery.It is very obvious it was.Here is an article that will clear this up real quick.What are your views?
http://www.upworthy.com/this-west-point-colonel-will-tell-you-what-the-civil-war-was-really-about

Slavery wasn't the only cause of the war, but it was the initial cause. The immediate cause of the secession of South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas was the election of Abraham Lincoln in 1860. Perhaps the main reason Lincoln was elected was the anger in the northern states (and California and Oregon) over the 1857 SCOTUS Dred Scott v. Sandford decision. Read Lincoln's 1858 House Divided speech on the subject. Link He won the election with 180 electoral votes to 120 for the other three candidates (Douglas, Breckinridge, and Bell) added together. The first shots of the war were fired by South Carolina at Fort Sumter.
 

Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
I have read and heard so many people say that the American Civil War was not only about slavery.It is very obvious it was.Here is an article that will clear this up real quick.What are your views?


http://www.upworthy.com/this-west-point-colonel-will-tell-you-what-the-civil-war-was-really-about




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Whether or not the civil war was about slavery, the issue I have with the narrative is that it never entirely ended slavery, that thousands, tens of thousands, died for a goal that was some what accomplished a century later. The black men who joined the northern army couldn't even join white battalions, not very equal is it?

In the years that followed, right up until the 1960s, in many states across the US, black people could not even use the same toilets as a white man...let that sink in, a black person's **** was inferior to a white person's ****.

No ta successful war, no matter what the reasoning behind it was.
 
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