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American distrust of scholarship

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...

What do you think? Why do Americans in particular distrust scholarship, or do you think it is more widespread?

I don't know. I suspect that here are several reasons.
But one of them in relationship to religion and its connection to overall ideology, it is the idea that the USA is special, because it is "ordained by God" as the best country in the world. You don't even have to use God. If you take for granted that you can't doubt that is the greatest country in the world and thus you are in effect doing your life correct, you don't need to change and when there is something that doesn't work, is always everybody else, who are not doing in the correct manner.
Note that it is not the only reason. There are more, but as far as I can tell, it is one of them.

Note that this is not unique to this American version. Any ideology who don't in effect allow for self-doubt, but explains any failure as everybody else's fault, ends up being closed off to change.

Regards
Mikkel
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
There is a difference between the educated and the uneducated.
The educated have been taught to think, to analyse, to investigate and come to reasoned conclusions. While some of the uneducated may develop some of these abilities for them selves a majority of them do not.

There is a reason that so many educated people support liberal views, as that is where clear thinking and analysis of world situation leads them.

The less educated without these attributes. Tend to chose options that they believe will benefit Them selves or their affiliated group, but without consideration of society or the environment as a whole. They are more likely to think short term, selfishly, and believe leaders and those like themselves, who think little further than personal advantage and gain.

About as accurate as any over-generalization of it could get, think. It's pretty hard to come up with a generalization as good as yours, so far as I can see. But I myself wouldn't rely on it more often than I needed it to improve a guess.

Here's the first or second most important factor of all, in my opinion. It doesn't so much go by educational level, I think, as by someone's ability to see human nature as human nature rather than as somehow divided between political ideologies. Granted, there are notable psychological splits between ideologies. But here, I am talking about an ability to see and understand the commonalities between people, regardless of any and all groupings, political or otherwise.

I would take any person who is a good judge of character over anyone who is not, in any category you name, regardless of education, and bet on them to be the one to have had a better understanding of what Trump's election would mean for America.

Knowing how people behave, after all, is pretty much the single most crucial factor in getting a good guess at what kind of world they will try to bring about.

Here is where propaganda must be factored in in so many ways. The one I'd make foremost in this context is how so much of it plays on the anti-intellectual streak in American culture.

Basically, if you do not have enough carefully vetted respect for scholars, scientists, experts, and so forth, then you are the naive lamb in any conversation about any reality that someone or some group has decided to mess with your understanding of the topic.

There are no people today living in any media driven culture who have not been propagandized into delusional beliefs useful to someone or something. None. If someone thinks he or she has not had their views on at least some topics shaped and molded by today's science driven propaganda, they are ignorant of propaganda, and most likely of a whole lot about basic human nature.

It is almost a Greek tragedy's concept of 'fate' in how well propaganda drives people's behavior. Almost the only rope available to so many people is their willingness to check their understanding of something against the best scholarship or science they can find on it.

And the OP is certain to lessen that respect for at least some people. This is a ****ed up world when something has been going on for 100 years over which time lying has only grown more and more socially acceptable. I'm for taking it almost as seriously as the Lakota and put to death any scout that could be determined to have lied -- and thus to have become an enemy of his own family and people.

I'm only stopped by opposition to the death penalty. I don't want to give government that much power over the people. I cannot see the wisdom of that.

Before anyone thinks of me as extreme, explain to me how what I would argue for is more extreme than the political use of propaganda to weaponize a crowd of politically naive people and incite them to storm a crucial function of democracy in order to install an authoritarian leader. If I'm more extreme than that to someone, my only question is do they know who has their mind plastered with their logos, just as if they were a sponsored race car driver?

Lying done to confuse people in a democracy so they cannot see clearly enough to vote in terms of what's best for their own self-interest cannot end well for the democracy, nor for the liberties and freedoms of the people.

America today is so propagandized it is politically paralyzed in terms of getting anything done that the majority of Americans want done, and that's decades old news now. This is not going to last forever. And especially with ******* OPs like the one above everywhere and on every level of American media and social websites.

It does not matter whether someone sawing away on someone else's lifeline is doing it naively or with cunning. The effect remains the same. There has been no apology. There has been no assumption of responsibility. There has been no offer of remedy. The only time lying on the level of potentially defeating someone's ability to exercise their fair right to share in deciding how they are governed can possibly be moral, is when it's used in self-defense or in defense of an innocent. Negligence in passing along false or misleading information amounts to condoning lying. All of that still applies even to when it's done to people you don't like or care about.

The Lakota have a lessen to teach. A wisdom for those who will learn it.

Lying becomes damnably immoral when it's done to a friend. It is not asking too much for people to make a minimal effort to check whether their opinions are grounded in fact before pumping out false and misleading roadmaps to people they call their friends. Is 'friends' now another one of those 'alt' words?

This thread has now tallied 668 views. 668 false and misleading road maps.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
About as accurate as any over-generalization of it could get, think. It's pretty hard to come up with a generalization as good as yours, so far as I can see. But I myself wouldn't rely on it more often than I needed it to improve a guess.

Here's the first or second most important factor of all, in my opinion. It doesn't so much go by educational level, I think, as by someone's ability to see human nature as human nature rather than as somehow divided between political ideologies. Granted, there is notable psychological splits between ideologies. But here I am talking about an ability to see and understand the commonalities between people, regardless of any and all groupings, political or otherwise.

I would take any person who is a good judge of character over anyone who is not, in any category you name, regardless of education, and bet on them to be the one to have had a better understanding of what Trump's election would mean for America. Knowing how people behave, after all, is pretty much the single most crucial factor in getting a good guess at what kind of world they will tend to bring about.

Here is where propaganda must be factored in in so many ways. The one I'd make foremost in this context is how so much of it plays on the anti-intellectual streak in American culture. Basically, if you do not have enough carefully vetted respect for scholars, scientists, experts, and so forth, then you are the naive lamb in any conversation about any reality that someone or some group has decided to mess with your understanding of the topic.

There are no people today living in any media driven culture who have not been propagandized into delusional beliefs useful to someone or something. None. It is almost a Greek tragedy's concept of 'fate' in how well that drives people's behavior. Almost the only rope available to so many people is their willingness to check their understanding of something against the best scholarship or science they can find on it.

And the OP is certain to lessen that respect for at least some people. This is a ****ed up world when something has been going on for 100 years over which time lying has only grown more and more socially acceptable. I'm for taking it almost as seriously as the Lakota and put to death any scout that could determined to have lied -- and thus to have become an enemy of his own family and people.

I''m only stopped by opposition to the death penalty.

Before anyone thinks of me as extreme, explain to me how what I would argue for is more extreme than the political use of propaganda to weaponize a crowd of politically naive people and incite them to storm a crucial function of democracy in order to install an authoritarian leader. If I'm more extreme than that to someone, my only question is do they know who has their mind plastered with their logos, just as if they were a sponsored race car driver?

Lying done to confuse people in a democracy so they cannot see clearly enough to vote in terms of being best for their own self-interest cannot end well for the democracy, nor for the liberties and freedoms of the people.

America today is so propagandized it is politically parallelized in terms of getting anything done that the majority of Americans want done, and that's decades old news now. This is not going to last forever. And especially with ******* OPs like the one above everywhere and on every level of American media and social websites.

It is not asking too much for people to make a minimal effort to check whether their opinions are grounded in fact before pumping out false and misleading roadmaps to people they call their friends. Is 'friends' now another one of those 'alt' words?

Good post.
The joke is that it is in part psychology. I will over-reduce to start with and then point out the limits of the over-reduction.
Kohlberg’s Stages of Moral Development | Education, Society, & the K-12 Learner

If you have a cultural narrative on the cultural level of cognition, that results in a strong version of with "truth" us versus them, for which it is always them, who are morally wrong, it can't stand the test of time.
You need a narrative, that allows for change and correction.

So what is the limit? There is with "truth" no narrative that allows for perfect change and correction. So some people end up with the following "funny" version. If I for this time period in human history have found the correct narrative for change and correction, it doesn't need to be changed, because it is universal for all human history.

So what is the overall narrative of Western culture that only works if adapted to changes in time, technology and nature.

I can with reason, logic and evidence do it for all humans in the best manner for all humans. That is the cultural heritage back to one way to solve how we govern ourselves in a democracy without any claim to objective authority. I.e. God, kings and what not.
But it doesn't work if you don't understand the limits of reason, logic and evidence. Not that they don't work at all, but that they are necessary, but not sufficient. That is it. As a product of this culture, I can also see its limits.

So here it is in simple terms: https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12
That is the end results of the limits of the best, we can do with reason, logic and evidence. But some people don't accept that and there are at least some on this forum.

So here is my answer. I don't speak for a we, because I don't have a methodology that works for that. I can only answer for a limited sense of how I get, what is possible, based on how I do it. And I accept that you can do it differently in some cases.

Regards
Mikkel
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
About as accurate as any over-generalization of it could get, think. It's pretty hard to come up with a generalization as good as yours, so far as I can see. But I myself wouldn't rely on it more often than I needed it to improve a guess.

Here's the first or second most important factor of all, in my opinion. It doesn't so much go by educational level, I think, as by someone's ability to see human nature as human nature rather than as somehow divided between political ideologies. Granted, there are notable psychological splits between ideologies. But here, I am talking about an ability to see and understand the commonalities between people, regardless of any and all groupings, political or otherwise.

I would take any person who is a good judge of character over anyone who is not, in any category you name, regardless of education, and bet on them to be the one to have had a better understanding of what Trump's election would mean for America.

Knowing how people behave, after all, is pretty much the single most crucial factor in getting a good guess at what kind of world they will try to bring about.

Here is where propaganda must be factored in in so many ways. The one I'd make foremost in this context is how so much of it plays on the anti-intellectual streak in American culture.

Basically, if you do not have enough carefully vetted respect for scholars, scientists, experts, and so forth, then you are the naive lamb in any conversation about any reality that someone or some group has decided to mess with your understanding of the topic.

There are no people today living in any media driven culture who have not been propagandized into delusional beliefs useful to someone or something. None. If someone thinks he or she has not had their views on at least some topics shaped and molded by today's science driven propaganda, they are ignorant of propaganda, and most likely of a whole about basic human nature.

It is almost a Greek tragedy's concept of 'fate' in how well propaganda drives people's behavior. Almost the only rope available to so many people is their willingness to check their understanding of something against the best scholarship or science they can find on it.

And the OP is certain to lessen that respect for at least some people. This is a ****ed up world when something has been going on for 100 years over which time lying has only grown more and more socially acceptable. I'm for taking it almost as seriously as the Lakota and put to death any scout that could be determined to have lied -- and thus to have become an enemy of his own family and people.

I''m only stopped by opposition to the death penalty.

Before anyone thinks of me as extreme, explain to me how what I would argue for is more extreme than the political use of propaganda to weaponize a crowd of politically naive people and incite them to storm a crucial function of democracy in order to install an authoritarian leader. If I'm more extreme than that to someone, my only question is do they know who has their mind plastered with their logos, just as if they were a sponsored race car driver?

Lying done to confuse people in a democracy so they cannot see clearly enough to vote in terms of what's best for their own self-interest cannot end well for the democracy, nor for the liberties and freedoms of the people.

America today is so propagandized it is politically parallelized in terms of getting anything done that the majority of Americans want done, and that's decades old news now. This is not going to last forever. And especially with ******* OPs like the one above everywhere and on every level of American media and social websites.

It is not asking too much for people to make a minimal effort to check whether their opinions are grounded in fact before pumping out false and misleading roadmaps to people they call their friends. Is 'friends' now another one of those 'alt' words?

You're damn right I'm angry.

There has been no apology. There has been no assumption of responsibility. There has been no offer of remedy. Members can slide, staff do not have that option.

Just wait for what happens next when I go cold.

Learning how people behave is one specialised area of education. it is also an area any observant person of above average intelligences could come to recognise for them selves. though specialist education can shorten and widen the scope of that process.

Extremism is an attribute available to anyone. I would describe myself as a fairly extreme social liberal.
However I am not a violent extremist. I tend to pacifism.
The aspect of liberalism that appeals to me most is the promotion of "Fairness" and "equity" and a long term view of the future of the world, and all that that implies. Environmentalism is not an option it is fundamental.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Strange, I would have thought it obvious that science is not a vehicle to address all topics and issues.

I would disagree. Science and education, is the investigation into the fundamental reasons and building blocks for everything.
This includes the nature of people, society and politics, as well as the more obvious relationship to the investigation of things, materials and how things came to be, and function. it may also eventually be able to define why people believe what they do, and the nature of religion, and why some people depend on it.
The success of science, in all things, will determine the Future prospects for the future of this world.

There is no limit to the scope of science or its sphere of interest.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Strange, I would have thought it obvious that science is not a vehicle to address all topics and issues.

No, in the Western culture we in effect have a narrative of everything can be described, explained and done with only reason, logic and evidence. It is a heritage of some old Greeks and it has morphed into a "hidden" assumption in some Westerners.

It is not science. It is philosophy, but it is phrased by some using the claim that the only correct way of doing a human life is with reason, logic and evidence and that end up being in effect "science".

I have overdone it, but it is there in some debates. And it is in effect in practice always connected to naturalism and "science".
Science tells you that you can't do it, but that is ignored, because you have to do it with reason, logic and evidence, because otherwise you are not reasonable, rational and/or sane.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I would disagree. Science and education, is the investigation into the fundamental reasons and building blocks for everything.
This includes the nature of people, society and politics, as well as the more obvious relationship to the investigation of things, materials and how things came to be, and function. it may also eventually be able to define why people believe what they do, and the nature of religion, and why some people depend on it.
The success of science, in all things, will determine the Future prospects for the future of this world.

There is no limit to the scope of science or its sphere of interest.

Thanks for sharing your religion with us. I don't have that religion, because I have another.
 

Secret Chief

Veteran Member
I would disagree. Science and education, is the investigation into the fundamental reasons and building blocks for everything.
This includes the nature of people, society and politics, as well as the more obvious relationship to the investigation of things, materials and how things came to be, and function. it may also eventually be able to define why people believe what they do, and the nature of religion, and why some people depend on it.
The success of science, in all things, will determine the Future prospects for the future of this world.

There is no limit to the scope of science or its sphere of interest.
Random question: Do you believe in the concepts of free will and freedom?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Thanks for sharing your religion with us. I don't have that religion, because I have another.

The practice of science can not be equated with a belief in a particular religion.
nor is it a religion, though it can share a world view with anyone.

As a rather heretical Anglican, I tend to a more Christian unitarian understanding. and do not pretend to understand the nature of God. or even what God is. The teachings of Jesus that have come down to us, and as to how we live our lives and how we should worship God, seem as good a pattern to follow as has yet been espoused.
However the Bible, as selected and edited, is both as inaccurate and as contradictory as any other scripture, and should be treated with caution, as it was selected and edited by men with a political and religious agenda. it dose not stand close inspection.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The practice of science can not be equated with a belief in a particular religion.

Yes, science can be turned into "science". You do so in your post, because you use subjective evaluations of good and useful and said that science can do that. It can't:
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

Further you use a definition of religion as if that is the only one there is. It isn't and I use another.
Science as science is not a religion, but your "science" is, because it speaks for all humans as for good and useful. That is what makes it a religion in practice.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Random question: Do you believe in the concepts of free will and freedom?

Yes, I do believe in free will and freedom. however I also believe in compassion, and compromise, and the needs of others. these can sometime override my own freedom of choice and desires.

Science has no bearing on this at all. Science will always be a work in progress, unlike religion it is not static or dogmatic, it is always open to, and thrives on questioning and new knowledge.

Education on the other hand embraces all human endeavour and is dispassionate, and is not in the business of taking sides. Its greatest function is to teach us how to learn, to think, to analyse, and make good decisions.

Sciences function is to find, establish, and distribute information.
 

Secret Chief

Veteran Member
Yes, I do believe in free will and freedom.

I asked, because it seems to me that if you think science can ultimately significantly illuminate "the fundamental reasons and building blocks for everything. This includes the nature of people, society and politics, as well as the more obvious relationship to the investigation of things, materials and how things came to be, and function. it may also eventually be able to define why people believe what they do, and the nature of religion, and why some people depend on it" this intimates to me that there is no such thing as free will. And such belief would surely lead to tyranny.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Yes, I do believe in free will and freedom. however I also believe in compassion, and compromise, and the needs of others. these can sometime override my own freedom of choice and desires.

Science has no bearing on this at all. Science will always be a work in progress, unlike religion it is not static or dogmatic, it is always open to, and thrives on questioning and new knowledge.

Education on the other hand embraces all human endeavour and is dispassionate, and is not in the business of taking sides. Its greatest function is to teach us how to learn, to think, to analyse, and make good decisions.

Sciences function is to find, establish, and distribute information.

All religions are not static and dogmatic.

As for education, no!, education is also a tool for indoctrination in some sense.
Further you are not aware that there is no "us" one to one when it comes to good decisions for all cases.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Yes, science can be turned into "science". You do so in your post, because you use subjective evaluations of good and useful and said that science can do that. It can't:
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

Further you use a definition of religion as if that is the only one there is. It isn't and I use another.
Science as science is not a religion, but your "science" is, because it speaks for all humans as for good and useful. That is what makes it a religion in practice.

It is easy to equate what you suggest with nonsense.

As to your link I never suggested that science was any of those things, however it does inform them.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
It is easy to equate what you suggest with nonsense.

As to your link I never suggested that science was any of those things, however it does inform them.

It can't inform subjectivity. What you consider good decisions can't be done with science and science can't inform you of good decisions, because science is objective and good is subjective.
We are playing the is-ought problem and it hasn't been solved.

So here it is with science in practice as a former professional soldier. Science can be used to better kill humans as a statistical chance of being able to kill a human. That is the inform, but it can't tell you if you ought to or not.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
All religions are not static and dogmatic.

As for education, no!, education is also a tool for indoctrination in some sense.
Further you are not aware that there is no "us" one to one when it comes to good decisions for all cases.

The only religion that I can think of that is not static, in the sense that it can change doctrine are the Mormons, as they have a living prophet. who can deliver new messages from God. and so change the direction of the church.

Other churches like the Anglicans, from time to time, revise interpretations and make democratic decisions in synod such as ordaining female priest and Bishops.
The Catholic Church has moved significantly under pope Francis, though more in administrative and social contexts.
Though he has allowed women to take a more active role in the church, even at the highest non priestly administrative level. he has also change the status of Mary Magdalene to the highest apostle level with her own Feast day.

But largely Doctrine does not change.

Education can be used for indoctrination, if that is the political decision of a government or dictator.

However it is not Possible in the UK under our current system. Whilst syllabuses are subject to authorisation by the state. Universities and schools and exam boards, decide their own content under each subject, And appoint their own staff and teachers.
We do not have the equivalent of the dichotomy between science and religion found in the USA.

Private Christian and other religious schools are require to teach the same minimum national curriculum as all other schools. Teaching " Creation Science" is not permitted in schools.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The only religion that I can think of that is not static, in the sense that it can change doctrine are the Mormons, as they have a living prophet. who can deliver new messages from God. and so change the direction of the church.

Other churches like the Anglicans, from time to time, revise interpretations and make democratic decisions in synod such as ordaining female priest and Bishops.
The Catholic Church has moved significantly under pope Francis, though more in administrative and social contexts.
Though he has allowed women to take a more active role in the church, even at the highest non priestly administrative level. he has also change the status of Mary Magdalene to the highest apostle level with her own Feast day.

But largely Doctrine does not change.

Education can be used for indoctrination, if that is the political decision of a government or dictator.

However it is not Possible in the UK under our current system. Whilst syllabuses are subject to authorisation by the state. Universities and schools and exam boards, decide their own content under each subject, And appoint their own staff and teachers.
We do not have the equivalent of the dichotomy between science and religion found in the USA.

Private Christian and other religious schools are require to teach the same minimum national curriculum as all other schools. Teaching " Creation Science" is not permitted in schools.

So religion is your examples and that is it.
And all of the world is down to the US versus a part of the Western world for which that is all we have to consider.
Yet you speak for all humans with your "we" for all times and culture and with a certain in effect limited cultural understanding of what science is. Science is itself a human social and cultural construct in part, yet that is not relevant to consider.

Wow, you really take your own culture for granted. In effect for certain words you take in effect philosophical materialism for granted.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I asked, because it seems to me that if you think science can ultimately significantly illuminate "the fundamental reasons and building blocks for everything. This includes the nature of people, society and politics, as well as the more obvious relationship to the investigation of things, materials and how things came to be, and function. it may also eventually be able to define why people believe what they do, and the nature of religion, and why some people depend on it" this intimates to me that there is no such thing as free will. And such belief would surely lead to tyranny.


Free will implies the right to go against reason, common sense and the "Facts of the case"
This is something we all do from time to time. It does not always lead to instant disaster.
However it is rarely the Best Choice for ourselves or anyone else.

The fact that some thing is "known" does not mean that you or anyone else will or must act on it.

At the moment Science only "Knows" a tiny fraction of what there is to know. and much of what it thinks it "Knows" will be revised many time in the future in the light of new Knowledge.

In the light of this "free will" is not in the slightest danger.

Knowledge Frees the mind not imprison it. the more we know the freer we become.

Free will as you define it implies the right to make mistakes. ( we do that anyway)
 
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