American distrust of scholarship

[Kooky]

In my experience with edumacated & ignant folks,
critical thinking seems to correlate more with personality.
Education & intelligence appear to have less significance.

Caution:
This is just an impression.
Don't demand evidence, lest I make fun of your privates.

I'd argue that "critical thinking" in and of itself is not really a hallmark of anything in particular.

It's an intellectual tool that can be used and misused like any other, and, in my opinion, should be used with a goal in mind, not blindly and without proper focus; as with the latter, it would simply devolve into mindless disagreement - or in many cases that I've observed, a simple rejection of ideas that do not conform to one's internalized core beliefs.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'd argue that "critical thinking" in and of itself is not really a hallmark of anything in particular.

It's an intellectual tool that can be used and misused like any other, and, in my opinion, should be used with a goal in mind, not blindly and without proper focus; as with the latter, it would simply devolve into mindless disagreement - or in many cases that I've observed, a simple rejection of ideas that do not conform to one's internalized core beliefs.

I say tis better to be with than without.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The most common mistake of critical thinking is that it always deliver the correct answer without bias. But that is no possible for all human behavior, only someone. So the best I have found by comparing the differently claims is that you can learn to be somewhat honest about your biases and learn to not treat them as universal for all humans and be open to compromise. But even that has a limit.
In the end I have core beliefs that I view as non-negotiable. I just don't view that as universal for all humans. I don't know if that is better in any universal sense, but that is how close I can get with critical thinking.

 

[Kooky]

I say tis better to be with than without.

I don't know. Gullible people are at least equally likely to have their opinions changed by facts.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I don't know. Gullible people are at least equally likely to have their opinions changed by facts.

Gullible people tend to believe the last persuasive argument they hear with out checking.

 

[sayak83]

I am curious what institutions. Are you talking about religious institutions? Sales? Hopefully not schools.

Religious, political, commercial institutions and some special interest groups. Governments in more authoritarian nations. For example.. oil companies will be hostile to climate change studies, environmentalists may be hostile to studies that show organically grown foods cannot meet global demand, Bible believers may be hostile to evolution, banking institutions will be hostile to economic studies on inequality, etc.

 

[Revoltingest]

To trust or not to trust scholarship....that would depend
upon several things.
- Is it in a field where political agendas infect the work?
Remember that all research is prone to being "theory laden",
so that bias can & does creep in.
- Are the results credible? Sometimes one has personal
experience in an area that can run counter to scholarly
claims.
- Is the analysis accessible to one? If so, one can look
for errors.
- Is the field one with a history of flip flops, ie, an emerging
field with great complexity, eg, dietary prescriptions &
proscriptions.

 

[Kooky]

Gullible people tend to believe the last persuasive argument they hear with out checking.

Exactly! So they will likely be persuaded by facts, at least temporarily.

With "critical" minds, that's not a guarantee.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

You apparently don't understand what I wrote. If you don't want your children to learn what without bias is, don't send them to university. But you want them to learn to understand without bias, right?

Are you arguing that colleges and universities have a monopoly on learning without bias?

You are arguing that there is zero bias in colleges and universities?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Are you arguing that colleges and universities have a monopoly on learning without bias?

No.

You are arguing that there is zero bias in colleges and universities?

No.

I am arguing that at least some universities teach and practice critical thinking. And that leads to cognitive, moral and cultural relativism.
You end here:

3. The definition of relativism
There is no general agreed upon definition of cognitive relativism. Here is how it has been described by a few major theorists:

• “Reason is whatever the norms of the local culture believe it to be”. (Hilary Putnam, Realism and Reason: Philosophical Papers, Volume 3 (Cambridge, 1983), p. 235.)
• “The choice between competing theories is arbitrary, since there is no such thing as objective truth.” (Karl Popper, The Open Society and its Enemies, Vol. II (London, 1963), p. 369f.)
• “There is no unique truth, no unique objective reality” (Ernest Gellner, Relativism and the Social Sciences (Cambridge, 1985), p. 84.)
• “There is no substantive overarching framework in which radically different and alternative schemes are commensurable” (Richard Bernstein, Beyond Objectivism and Relativism (Philadelphia, 1985), pp. 11-12.)
• “There is nothing to be said about either truth or rationality apart from descriptions of the familiar procedures of justification which a given society—ours—uses in one area of enquiry” (Richard Rorty, Objectivity, Relativism and Truth: Philosophical Papers, Volume 1 (Cambridge, 1991), p. 23.)

Without doubt, this lack of consensus about exactly what relativism asserts is one reason for the unsatisfactory character of much of the debate about its coherence and plausibility. Another reason is that very few philosophers are willing to apply the label “relativist” to themselves. Even Richard Rorty, who is widely regarded as one of the most articulate defenders of relativism, prefers to describe himself as a “pragmatist”, an “ironist” and an “ethnocentrist”.

Nevertheless, a reasonable definition of relativism may be constructed: one that describes the fundamental outlook of thinkers like Rorty, Kuhn, or Foucault while raising the hackles of their critics in the right way.

Cognitive relativism consists of two claims:

(1) The truth-value of any statement is always relative to some particular standpoint;

(2) No standpoint is metaphysically privileged over all others.

Cognitive Relativism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

 

[Brickjectivity]

Have you ever seen an Evangelical pastor quote obscure Biblical passages in order to persuade less learned Evangelicals they are God's rules or laws for everyone, including non-Evangelicals? What about better known passages quoted in ways suggesting those pastors are privy to especially authoritative interpretations? Ever seen that?

Does that in any way tie into your insights regarding the misuses of scholarship as propaganda?

I haven't commented on scholarship as propaganda and don't consider it propaganda. Sorry if I gave that impression.

I'm not even going to begin to tell what I think your OP might help to do screwing up people's understanding of things that might be important to helping them get what they want out of their lives.

Just want to reiterate I don't consider scholarship to be propaganda and have not said so. I'm also not a creationist anymore and haven't been for a long time.

Brick weeded himself out -- if there's such a thing here as free will -- when he declined an opportunity to publicly apologize for a propaganda inspired attack on a group, that whoever was behind the propaganda wanted to discredit, marginalize. Brick's attack was predictably and identifiably along their lines.

I declined to attack you in a personal way. You ticked me off announcing that you were no longer talking to me. I did pretty well by not bringing up the past.

 

[Revoltingest]

There is a reason that so many educated people support liberal views, as that is where clear thinking and analysis of world situation leads them.

The less educated without these attributes. Tend to chose options that they believe will benefit Them selves or their affiliated group, but without consideration of society or the environment as a whole. They are more likely to think short term, selfishly, and believe leaders and those like themselves, who think little further than personal advantage and gain.

The liberal belief in their innate superiority to others is
a fascinating thing. Keen intellect, cogent analysis,
& advanced education led to successes like the 1984
Crime Bill, which was.....uh....never mind.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The liberal belief in their innate superiority to others is
a fascinating thing. Keen intellect, cogent analysis,
& advanced education led to successes like the 1984
Crime Bill, which was.....uh....never mind.

Here is a too simple version. Some of them are too intellectual.

 

[Revoltingest]

The most common mistake of critical thinking is that it always deliver the correct answer without bias.

That sounds like the antithesis of critical thinking.
Belief in one's own perfection of thought seems faith based.
What's the better alternative to critical thinking...uncritical thinking?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That sounds like the antithesis of critical thinking.
Belief in one's own perfection of thought seems faith based.
What's the better alternative to critical thinking...uncritical thinking?

To understand the limits of reason, logic and evidence. They are good tools, but not universal and can't in practice stand alone.

 

[Revoltingest]

Here is a too simple version. Some of them are too intellectual.

I'd say "pseudo intellectual"....if it weren't so rude.
Instead, let's just say that a paucity of self doubt
can lead one down the wrong path.
In design engineering, I found it useful to always
have the attitude....
What did I do wrong? What haven't I thought of?
How will this go wrong? What else should I consider?
What improvements are there? Did I define the problem
correctly? Did I balance all the competing concerns
optimally?
Enjoy one's successes, but beware the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The liberal belief in their innate superiority to others is
a fascinating thing. Keen intellect, cogent analysis,
& advanced education led to successes like the 1984
Crime Bill, which was.....uh....never mind.

Too often liberal politicians are more politicians than liberal. And share the failings Of all all politicians of what ever colour.
Educated people can of course be of any political persuasion.
However more of them share the sense of social responsibilities that we identify a liberal bias. In the USA slightly more of these people Are to be found in the Democratic party.

Conrtawise more of the ignorant folk with a distrust of the educated and education are found among the supporters of the Republican party.

Politicians of both parties take advantage of these groups for their own advantage.
I would suggest that it is the professional politicians and their personal and collective agendas that constitute the major problem.

The justice system in the USA would appear to totally corrupted by the justice and penal industry and it's link to local government and police finance.
It can be likened to the slave trade via entrapment. Largely due to the inability of the target members of society being unable to pay increasingly higher level of fines.

The prison population of this slave trade are maintained by the industry at extreme numbers seen nowhere else in the world, except perhaps China.

 

[Revoltingest]

Too often liberal politicians are more politicians than liberal. And share the failings Of all all politicians of what ever colour.
Educated people can of course be of any political persuasion.
However more of them share the sense of social responsibilities that we identify a liberal bias. In the USA slightly more of these people Are to be found in the Democratic party.

Conrtawise more of the ignorant folk with a distrust of the educated and education are found among the supporters of the Republican party.

Politicians of both parties take advantage of these groups for their own advantage.
I would suggest that it is the professional politicians and their personal and collective agendas that constitute the major problem.

The justice system in the USA would appear to totally corrupted by the justice and penal industry and it's link to local government and police finance.
It can be likened to the slave trade via entrapment. Largely due to the inability of the target members of society being unable to pay increasingly higher level of fines.

The prison population of this slave trade are maintained by the industry at extreme numbers seen nowhere else in the world, except perhaps China.

There are always explanations why liberals are illiberal.
So my eyes will roll when they claim superior gray matter.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

There are always explanations why liberals are illiberal.
So my eyes will roll when they claim superior gray matter.

Some liberals may claim to be well educated, but I have never heard one claim to have better Grey matter.
Most simply prefer their Philosophy to that of Republicans. and would suggest that the resulting political national policies are better for the nation, and leads to fairer outcomes for all the people.

The Republicans of course believe the opposite to be true.

It is a battle of Philosophies not education. However the liberal philosophy does seem to appeal to many of those with higher levels of education. I would not claim that that is because all liberals are "Brainier"

However we have all seen the effects of Dumb leadership.

 

[Revoltingest]

Some liberals may claim to be well educated, but I have never heard one claim to have better Grey matter.
Most simply prefer their Philosophy to that of Republicans. and would suggest that the resulting political national policies are better for the nation, and leads to fairer outcomes for all the people.

The Republicans of course believe the opposite to be true.

It is a battle of Philosophies not education. However the liberal philosophy does seem to appeal to many of those with higher levels of education. I would not claim that that is because all liberals are "Brainier"

However we have all seen the effects of Dumb leadership.

Still seems like an appeal to feelings of superiority.