American Gun Laws,i just don't get it (Aurora Cinema shootings)

[Revoltingest]

I guess the reason i don't get is i don't feel the need to carry a Gun,my serious Gun is locked up in a Gun club Armoury and my sporting Shotgun in a safe because thats the norm for my country,your countries history and culture is just different from mine.

I don't feel the need either. But it's like insurance....worth having.

Just a random -ish question,who is more likely to change the Gun laws,Democrats or Republicans.

I don't know, but if Pubs do, I'd expect it to be in response to Dem pressure.

 

[Copernicus]

I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye because the laws don't work. They do work. They just don't work for criminals. Laws are made to create order to society. Gun laws don't keep guns from criminals. I know felons who own guns that are illegal to purchase in the US. If gun laws worked, how are they able to get these guns?

After a crime is committed, it is an easy argument to make that the law didn't work for that crime. Laws are designed to deter and reduce incidents of crime. The argument is not over whether crimes will still happen or criminals will still get guns when tougher laws are in place. It is over the need for tougher laws to reduce the frequency of crimes, their lethality, and the availability of guns to those who might have criminal intent. Most of the guns used to create the mountain of gunshot casualties and gun-related crimes in the US were legally-purchased guns. Guns are prized by burglars for their street value. They are much easier to steal than cars, so there is a reason why we ought to require people to keep them secured.

You are right, gun laws would reduce the number of senseless attacks on people, these "crimes of passion". And existing gun laws work well enough to accomplish this. Gun laws will not reduce the number of planned attacks. If someone is determined to kill people, they are going to kill people whether they have access to guns or not. He planned this attack for months, what law do you think could be made that would have prevented him from killing anyone?

Let's just talk about the milquetoast precaution of banning legal sales of assault weapons, ammo, and high-capacity magazines. That alone would have impeded this person, if not prevented it altogether. Had he been forced to rely on less lethal guns, more people might have survived. That 100-round drum magazine, according to the police chief, allowed him to get off about a round per second. The police responded very quickly from their station two blocks away. More restrictions on publicly-available weaponry might have saved a few more lives, resulted in fewer injuries (and given Revoltingest a sportsman's chance to draw his weapon and save the day with his little pistol). It is really not all that hard to make a case for gun control. Getting Americans to unblock their ears and open their eyes--not so easy.

 

[England my lionheart]

So he wired his apartment for a political statement and shot up the theater because he's a madman? I don't follow your logic on that.

There isn't any logic in what he did is there,only to cause as much harm as possible,we are not AFAIK talking about an IRA or Al Qaeda member who tend to use bombs to further their cause,what caused the most harm in this case?.

 

[Copernicus]

There isn't any logic in what he did is there,only to cause as much harm as possible,we are not AFAIK talking about an IRA or Al Qaeda member who tend to use bombs to further their cause,what caused the most harm in this case?.

I have a feeling that incidents like this are what al Qaeda dreams of pulling off. They may not be as familiar with the actual ease with which one can obtain weapons legally in America, but these incidents probably put some ideas into their heads. Why go for shoe bombs when you can mount an assault team with military-style weapons bought on the open market?

 

[Revoltingest]

I have a feeling that incidents like this are what al Qaeda dreams of pulling off. They may not be as familiar with the actual ease with which one can obtain weapons legally in America, but these incidents probably put some ideas into their heads. Why go for shoe bombs when you can mount an assault team with military-style weapons bought on the open market?

I opine that Al Qaeda's real victory was the creation DHS & TSA, an economy
damaged by multiple fruitless wars, & increased enmity of the Islamic world.
I doubt that our mass murder rate has increased sinc 9/11.

 

[England my lionheart]

Let me offer as weak defense that not all Americans favor gun laws as written today...but know that many of those laws are not federalized (ie, apply nationwide). The individual 50 states write and enforce the majority of gun purchase and ownership laws as only apply to the residents of those states alone.
So, as insane at it sounds to most outsiders, there are quite literally 50 separate but equal standards of enforceable gun laws today.

Only 5 of the 50 states regulate whom may purchase or own assault rifles, and all 50 states allow purchase and ownership of the handguns and shotgun) along with virtually unlimited stockpiles of literally thousands of rounds of ammunition, all of which were obtained legally by this latest iterated psychopath/sociopath.

And we then wonder why crazy people can manage to exploit such "laws", then "go postal" and shoot/maim/kill dozens of people in just minutes...

Going postal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*face palm*

Inevitably, at least initially, peaceful and reasoned people here ask "How could this happen"?

They then inquire, "What can we do to insure this never happens again"?

Short answers are as follows...

"Crazy happens", and can not be prevented (but can be treated, when identified in time)

...and...

"Nothing"

That's the ongoing tragedy in the US today...Aurora is but another all-too-frequent and tragic example that crazy people here can legally obtain, own and purchase as many weapons as they can afford, with a lone designed purpose to kill people, and will continue to do so as they please.

"Aurora" will happen again, someplace, somewhere, sooner than later...and given the national politics and powerful special interests that are entrenched today, there's nothing -nothing- anyone can (or will) do to prevent it from happening again.

And that's the tragedy that no one here is willing to face...as horrible as it always is to confront and try to understand...

There's just enough of a fearful and ignorant populace remaining here adequately persuaded and convinced to vote against their own self-interests every election cycle.

Thats what i don't get,as an outsider the answer seems obvious.

 

[Apex]

 

[England my lionheart]

I have a feeling that incidents like this are what al Qaeda dreams of pulling off. They may not be as familiar with the actual ease with which one can obtain weapons legally in America, but these incidents probably put some ideas into their heads. Why go for shoe bombs when you can mount an assault team with military-style weapons bought on the open market?

This is it,ease of access of serious weaponry,there is no way i could have 2 automatic Pistols an automatic Rifle and a Shotgun with a thousand rounds of ammunition without alarm bells ringing,really if you feel a need to have four such weapons in your home how does that reflect the culture you live in.

The UK has had a problem with knives recently,the law is far from perfect but if you carry a knife and are caught with it even if you haven't used it carries a sentence of up to four years imprisonment,i would expect my Government to react to such an incident as Aurora in some way rather than avoid what would seem to me as obvious.

 

[Sir Doom]

There isn't any logic in what he did is there,only to cause as much harm as possible,we are not AFAIK talking about an IRA or Al Qaeda member who tend to use bombs to further their cause,what caused the most harm in this case?.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to ignore the fact that he used bombs simply because he didn't manage to kill anyone with them. Nor will I ignore the fact that he used bombs simply because he isn't in the IRA or Al Qaeda or any other terrorist group.

I maintain that if he had not been able to obtain the guns he used, he would have reverted to using bombs. He obviously knew how to make them (because he did), he obviously knew how to use them (because he did) and he obviously possesses the motivation to kill (because he did).

I cannot for the life of me understand how you can sweep that all away due to a lack of political motivation.

 

[Apex]

I think one major thing some of our friends over in the UK and Europe, and possibly even our friends to the north, do not understand/realize about America is our physical location and geography make stricter gun laws, and especially outright bans, futile.

And if you do not understand why, look at just how effective our ban on drugs has been.

 

[England my lionheart]

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to ignore the fact that he used bombs simply because he didn't manage to kill anyone with them. Nor will I ignore the fact that he used bombs simply because he isn't in the IRA or Al Qaeda or any other terrorist group.

I maintain that if he had not been able to obtain the guns he used, he would have reverted to using bombs. He obviously knew how to make them (because he did), he obviously knew how to use them (because he did) and he obviously possesses the motivation to kill (because he did).

I cannot for the life of me understand how you can sweep that all away due to a lack of political motivation.

Then i would ask why he told the Police that his Apartment was rigged,why warn them,would Al Qaeda,i doubt that very much.

 

[Dingbat]

I have an assault rifle, several high powered rifles, and a shotgun and the reality is I have never had the urge to draw or take these weapons anywhere to be used against anyone. People focus way too much on firearms in regards to their commissions in crimes but do not spend as much on fertilizer, various chemicals, knives, etc. All of which can be used to easily slaughter people as much as a firearm hell if you want a cost/benefit analysis explosives are the easiest way to go and do not take much knowledge in order to manufacture.

I think the real problem here is the lack of awareness and programs for people with serious mental defects. People do not just wake up one day and go, "Lets slaughter a whole theater full of people." No unfortunately this is a boiling over of human being who has likely been in crisis for a while and no one has paid any attention.

 

[tumbleweed41]

You forgot to answer the second question....

I am perhaps not understanding what exactly you mean when you say "Registration and tracking of sales".

Guns are not required to be registered in Colorado. Nor is Colorado allowed to track sales of guns in real time. As in, "Hey Sarge, take a look at this. This guy has bought quite a few weapons in the last couple of weeks. Maybe we should look into this?"

There is no guarantee that real time tracking of weapons sales would have prevented the incident in Aurora, but it may have.

 

[Dingbat]

Guns are not required to be registered in Colorado. Nor is Colorado allowed to track sales of guns in real time. As in, "Hey Sarge, take a look at this. This guy has bought quite a few weapons in the last couple of weeks. Maybe we should look into this?"

There is no guarantee that real time tracking of weapons sales would have prevented the incident in Aurora, but it may have.

Even then likely not as there is a growing trend to build your own ARs anymore with the wide availability of kits, instructions, greater customization, and a hell of a lot cheaper.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Just saying that anyone that wants to do you harm can find a way. I believe that each of us has to take responsibility for our safety, and the safety of the ones we love, in what ever manner possible. The authorities and the well-intentioned laws are usually not there when the hammer falls.

Again, since you brought vehicular homicide into the conversation.

Would you advocate deregulating vehicle licensing and registration?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Even then likely not as there is a growing trend to build your own ARs anymore with the wide availability of kits, instructions, greater customization, and a hell of a lot cheaper.

And the guns used in the assault were bought legally at local outlets.

 

[England my lionheart]

I have an assault rifle, several high powered rifles, and a shotgun and the reality is I have never had the urge to draw or take these weapons anywhere to be used against anyone. People focus way too much on firearms in regards to their commissions in crimes but do not spend as much on fertilizer, various chemicals, knives, etc. All of which can be used to easily slaughter people as much as a firearm hell if you want a cost/benefit analysis explosives are the easiest way to go and do not take much knowledge in order to manufacture.

I think the real problem here is the lack of awareness and programs for people with serious mental defects. People do not just wake up one day and go, "Lets slaughter a whole theater full of people." No unfortunately this is a boiling over of human being who has likely been in crisis for a while and no one has paid any attention.

OK thats a serious armoury you have but do you really need them at home,does anyone ever question where you use them or make any checks on you.

 

[Dingbat]

OK thats a serious armoury you have but do you really need them at home,does anyone ever question where you use them or make any checks on you.

Not really that serious I have a rather small collection in my town and most of it is just WWII Era Rifles I have been collecting over the years. No one asks nor really cares. If the police spent all their time checking on firearms here they would do nothing else nor could they ever get to everyone in the day let alone probably the month. When you live out in the rural areas target shooting is one of the biggest hobbies around especially now with the popularity of tannerite.

 

[England my lionheart]

Not really that serious I have a rather small collection in my town and most of it is just WWII Era Rifles I have been collecting over the years. No one asks nor really cares. If the police spent all their time checking on firearms here they would do nothing else nor could they ever get to everyone in the day let alone probably the month. When you live out in the rural areas target shooting is one of the biggest hobbies around especially now with the popularity of tannerite.

My high powered Rifle is kept in a Gun club armoury which i am happy with,i live in a rural area and have a Shotgun for Pheasants and such,i cannot think of a reason to keep any other weapon at home let alone a thousand rounds of ammo,of course i'm not an American so you could say what business is it of mine.

 

[Copernicus]

I maintain that if he had not been able to obtain the guns he used, he would have reverted to using bombs. He obviously knew how to make them (because he did), he obviously knew how to use them (because he did) and he obviously possesses the motivation to kill (because he did).

However, he might have been caught making an illegal purchase, IF THE PURCHASES HAD BEEN ILLEGAL. All of this is very hypothetical, and we can all dream up "what-if" responses to defend our cases. My argument is for laws that would tend to reduce such incidents and their lethality. The fact that this particular nut also knew how to boobytrap his apartment with bombs does not mean that every nut would have necessarily committed mass murder by other means than the one chosen. That is not an argument for keeping assault weapons and high-capacity magazines legal. They should be outlawed in the same way that bombs are.

I think one major thing some of our friends over in the UK and Europe, and possibly even our friends to the north, do not understand/realize about America is our physical location and geography make stricter gun laws, and especially outright bans, futile.

Rubbish. The fact that we manufacture a massive number of guns to feed the violence is a factor. That's why the Mexican drug cartels like to shop in Arizona. Another factor is that we have no uniform laws to impede the flow of guns across internal political borders, which is why most guns used by criminals in Washington DC come from legal purchases in Virginia. Our problem with guns is not caused by geography and physical location. It is caused by our myopic approach to the availability of guns.

And if you do not understand why, look at just how effective our ban on drugs has been.

False analogy. Drugs and guns pose different threats to society and require different social policies to deal with them. Nobody is going to injure over 70 people in just a few minutes with a bag of weed.

I have an assault rifle, several high powered rifles, and...

OK, let's just stop right there. This is not about you. I don't know why you feel you need all those weapons, but maybe you haven't felt any need to use them yet. Tomorrow, who knows? Nobody volunteers to go crazy. There was probably a time in the life of Mr. Holmes when he didn't desire to slaughter scores of people in a crowded movie theater. The point is that he could prepare for such a moment without violating any laws at all.

I think the real problem here is the lack of awareness and programs for people with serious mental defects. People do not just wake up one day and go, "Lets slaughter a whole theater full of people." No unfortunately this is a boiling over of human being who has likely been in crisis for a while and no one has paid any attention.

Yes, we do need to improve our public policies on the treatment of mental health. That is a completely separate issue from whether we need to curtail the availability of weapons of mass destruction to those people who don't get treated in a timely fashion.

Here's the thing that our pro-gun friends just don't get. What if the police had known about the Holmes arsenal before he committed himself? Could they have done anything about it? Yes, if they knew that he possessed bombs. No, if they just knew that he possessed guns, ammo, and high-capacity magazines. Collectors of assault rifles may think it unfair to make them give up their gun collections. I think it unfair for those people in the movie theater to have given up their lives so that gun collectors can enjoy their collections of usable assault weapons.