American Gun Laws,i just don't get it (Aurora Cinema shootings)

[Reverend Rick]

It is the sacred duty of every red-blooded American to firmly believe that his or her 100 hours a month put in shooting paper targets that don't fire back has turned him or her into a veritable Dirty Harry.

All sarcasm aside, there where many brave young men who stood in front of their loved ones and took a bullet.

 

[Pink Top Hat]

Obviously its all over the news BBC News - Aurora suspect James Holmes 'bought guns legally'.

I don't get it,a Guy buys an assault Rifle,Shotgun,two Pistols and thousands of rounds of ammo and nobody questions it,ok i understand the right to bare arms for protection but there ought to be some restrictions,from what i understand of them the American Gun Laws are crazy IMO.

One man was being interviewed on TV and said that when that right to bear arms was included it was because the Europeans had to make sure they could fight and kill the natives of America. Later the right to bear arms was to ensure they could control the black slaves on their plantations etc.

Originally he said that was the reason.

Today what is the reason to be able to go into a restaurant perfectly legally and eat dinner with a pistol strapped to your belt!

 

[Wirey]

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to ignore the fact that he used bombs simply because he didn't manage to kill anyone with them. Nor will I ignore the fact that he used bombs simply because he isn't in the IRA or Al Qaeda or any other terrorist group.

I maintain that if he had not been able to obtain the guns he used, he would have reverted to using bombs. He obviously knew how to make them (because he did), he obviously knew how to use them (because he did) and he obviously possesses the motivation to kill (because he did).

I cannot for the life of me understand how you can sweep that all away due to a lack of political motivation.

Bomb making requires a specific skill set not available to everyone. The manufacturing process weeds out a few who fail on the quality control side (fizzle). Firearm ownership requires a credit card. I am not proposing that a ban on firearms would have stopped this, but you could make it harder to buy 5,000 rounds of KKSP and a semi-auto.

 

[Revoltingest]

One man was being interviewed on TV and said that when that right to bear arms was included it was because the Europeans had to make sure they could fight and kill the natives of America. Later the right to bear arms was to ensure they could control the black slaves on their plantations etc.
Originally he said that was the reason.

This illustrates why we shouldn't believe everything we hear.
Some better historical info....
Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Wirey]

This illustrates why we shouldn't believe everything we hear.
Some better historical info....
Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The idea that the right to bear arms is somehow responsible for this seems a little wacky to me. I'm Canadian, and I own guns, and I have no such right. The idea that someone needs thousands of rounds of ammo without anyone asking 'Why'? strikes me as odd, though.

 

[Revoltingest]

The idea that the right to bear arms is somehow responsible for this seems a little wacky to me. I'm Canadian, and I own guns, and I have no such right. The idea that someone needs thousands of rounds of ammo without anyone asking 'Why'? strikes me as odd, though.

Meh....I've had thousands of rounds in my possession for years. Many serious gun owners do.
Buying in bulk keeps the price low, & one can use a lot in practice. I don't practice so much anymore,
so I sold most of it.....not to this perp though.

I wouldn't trust Canuckistanians with gun rights though. Since we're downhill from you guys, that would
pose a big danger.

 

[Wirey]

Meh....I've had thousands of rounds in my possession for years. Many serious gun owners do.
Buying in bulk keeps the price low, & one can use a lot in practice. I don't practice so much anymore,
so I sold most of it.....not to this perp though.

I wouldn't trust Canuckistanians with gun rights though. Since we're downhill from you guys, that would
pose a big danger.

The greater threat is poutine, or a new Celine Dion album.

I'm not saying that bulk purchases of ammo should be stopped. I'll bet in Denver, I could find somewhere to but 100 rounds no problem. I'll bet I could find 30 or 40 places like that. Take a trip to each, and come back a month later and do it again, and I'm in. Prohibiting the sale would be a minor inconvenience, at best. But a sale that large would probably trigger a sniff from the Mounties here. Why not there?

And, just so I can stop hearing it, in Canada we have tougher gun laws than Americans, so every one can be safe. See:

Mayerthorpe tragedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think I need to point something out in all this: these sorts of events are very rare. This means two big things that need to be kept in mind:

- there's going to be a lot of statistical "noise" in the data, which is going to make it very difficult to extract any trends with a reasonable level of confidence... and trends are what we're talking about here if we're talking about changes in public policy. With mass murder already illegal, any new public policy to prevent it would be a matter of identifying trends in mass murders and addressing them so they don't become actual mass murders in future.

- because these events are rare, the bulk of the impact of any changes in gun policy is going to be in other areas... i.e. more "everyday" activities with firearms, whether positive or negative. Having gun policy based on these sorts of crimes, horrific as they are, is the tail wagging the dog.

Also, I've noticed something odd in the news lately: while they were giving nearly non-stop coverage to the Aurora shooting, a headline flipped by on the ticker without further mention: "14 killed in truck rollover in the Philippines". This morning, there was a very brief mention of the fact that 58 people have died of drowning this year so far in Ontario... not as a solemn comemmoration, but just as an aside in the lead-in for a mention of the town's swimmng lesson offerings. I find the differences in how we respond to different deaths to be interesting.

 

[Revoltingest]

The greater threat is poutine, or a new Celine Dion album.
I'm not saying that bulk purchases of ammo should be stopped. I'll bet in Denver, I could find somewhere to but 100 rounds no problem. I'll bet I could find 30 or 40 places like that. Take a trip to each, and come back a month later and do it again, and I'm in. Prohibiting the sale would be a minor inconvenience, at best. But a sale that large would probably trigger a sniff from the Mounties here. Why not there?
And, just so I can stop hearing it, in Canada we have tougher gun laws than Americans, so every one can be safe. See:
Mayerthorpe tragedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Complicated, eh?
Bulk ammo purchases are so common, it would waste gov resources to investigate them without other risk factors.
I'd be OK with sellers reporting suspicious purchases. It would have its downsides, & it wouldn't cure the
problem, but anything which improves our lot is worth a try.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think I need to point something out in all this: these sorts of events are very rare. This means two big things that need to be kept in mind:
- there's going to be a lot of statistical "noise" in the data, which is going to make it very difficult to extract any trends with a reasonable level of confidence... and trends are what we're talking about here if we're talking about changes in public policy. With mass murder already illegal, any new public policy to prevent it would be a matter of identifying trends in mass murders and addressing them so they don't become actual mass murders in future.
- because these events are rare, the bulk of the impact of any changes in gun policy is going to be in other areas... i.e. more "everyday" activities with firearms, whether positive or negative. Having gun policy based on these sorts of crimes, horrific as they are, is the tail wagging the dog.
Also, I've noticed something odd in the news lately: while they were giving nearly non-stop coverage to the Aurora shooting, a headline flipped by on the ticker without further mention: "14 killed in truck rollover in the Philippines". This morning, there was a very brief mention of the fact that 58 people have died of drowning this year so far in Ontario... not as a solemn comemmoration, but just as an aside in the lead-in for a mention of the town's swimmng lesson offerings. I find the differences in how we respond to different deaths to be interesting.

News coverage certainly skews the direction of our attention.
Consider info from....
Drunk Driving Accident Statistics: Alcohol-Related Car Crash Deaths
Even if this site is off by a significant amount, just look at the far greater preventable carnage on our highways.....

Three in every ten Americans will be involved in an alcohol-related crash at some point in their lives.

• Of fatal accidents in 2009, 32 percent involved alcohol-impaired drivers.
• On average, one person died every 48 minutes in 2009 due to an alcohol-impaired driver.
• In 2009, all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico made it illegal to drive with a BAC of .08 or higher. Of the 10,839 people who died in an alcohol-related crash, 7,281 (67 percent) had drivers with BACs above the legal limit.
• For fatal crashes occurring from midnight to 3 a.m., 66 percent involved alcohol-impaired driving.
• On New Year’s Day, 468 people were killed in car accidents. Alcohol-impaired driving contributed to 40 percent of them.
• Fatal crashes involving alcohol-impaired drivers occurred four times more at night than during the day (37 percent versus 9 percent).
• Of the drivers involved in fatal crashes, 30 percent of males had a BAC of .01+ and 25 percent had a BAC of .08+; 16 percent of women had a BAC of .01+ and 14 percent had a BAC of .08+.
• Of people ages 21 to 24 involved in fatal crashes, 35 percent had a BAC above the legal limit.
• In 2009, 14 percent of children ages 14 and younger killed in crashes died because of alcohol.
• More than 181 children were killed due to drivers who were drunk.
• Drivers with a BAC level of .08 or higher in fatal crashes were eight times more likely to have a prior conviction for driving while under the influence.
• The most frequently recorded BAC level among drinking drivers in fatal crashes was .17, which is more than twice the legal limit.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You won't get any argument from me. IMO, if we're really concerned about innocent lives, our biggest priorities should be things that don't make the news very often. Its mostly mundane stuff like helmets, seatbelts, and enclosures around pools.

 

[Revoltingest]

You won't get any argument from me. IMO, if we're really concerned about innocent lives, our biggest priorities should be things that don't make the news very often. Its mostly mundane stuff like helmets, seatbelts, and enclosures around pools.

We in MI just repealed our helmet law. But yeah, the greatest effort should be
in the areas where wrongful death is greatest. Drunk drivers are my pet peeve.

 

[Wirey]

We in MI just repealed our helmet law. But yeah, the greatest effort should be
in the areas where wrongful death is greatest. Drunk drivers are my pet peeve.

Repealed helmet laws. There's a smart-***** remark in there somewhere, I'm sure of it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Repealed helmet laws. There's a smart-***** remark in there somewhere, I'm sure of it.

I still wear my helmet, even in social settings.
It protects me from unwanted attention from other women.
Although...that would explain why Mrs Revolt keeps her distance.

 

[England my lionheart]

People don't wear seat belts because they expect an accident, or keep fire extinguishers on hand because they expect a fire.

I don't expect to get shot by some lunatic because i know its difficult to purchase a Gun,maybe on the black market but from what i've heard most are converted replica's.

 

[jasonwill2]

And the delusional people that think that preserving the capacity for a civil war by being allowed to carry a shot gun and a .30-06 Springfield will allow for that. You're going to shoot down drones and missiles you can't see? Good luck with that.

It is likely to be a combination of civillians and the state miltias (national guard). In all reality if civil war broke out, the state military forces and all these redneck militias would probably fight together against the evil federal government.

I'm not actually, I own zero guns and don't plan on owning any. I am just a huge fan of truth and reason and I see no logical reason to make stricter gun laws. Gun laws aren't going to keep guns away from criminals. Funny thing about criminals is that they commit crimes. They don't care about existing laws, why would new laws stop them? The problem isn't that people are killing people with guns, the problem is that people are killing people. If we just focus on the guns then we are only treating a symptom.

There is so much truth to this.

lol.

This is it,ease of access of serious weaponry,there is no way i could have 2 automatic Pistols an automatic Rifle and a Shotgun with a thousand rounds of ammunition without alarm bells ringing,really if you feel a need to have four such weapons in your home how does that reflect the culture you live in.

The UK has had a problem with knives recently,the law is far from perfect but if you carry a knife and are caught with it even if you haven't used it carries a sentence of up to four years imprisonment,i would expect my Government to react to such an incident as Aurora in some way rather than avoid what would seem to me as obvious.

I didn't hear of them being automatic pistols, or any of his weapons being automatic. I think they were all semi. and yes, the difference is important because full auto means you just hold the trigger, semi means one shot per a pull, and fires much slower.

I think the real problem here is the lack of awareness and programs for people with serious mental defects. People do not just wake up one day and go, "Lets slaughter a whole theater full of people." No unfortunately this is a boiling over of human being who has likely been in crisis for a while and no one has paid any attention.

Ya, people focus too much on the guns and not enough on the fact that no one realized this guy needed help.

Guns are not required to be registered in Colorado. Nor is Colorado allowed to track sales of guns in real time. As in, "Hey Sarge, take a look at this. This guy has bought quite a few weapons in the last couple of weeks. Maybe we should look into this?"

There is no guarantee that real time tracking of weapons sales would have prevented the incident in Aurora, but it may have.

And then we enable the government to track us...

OK thats a serious armoury you have but do you really need them at home,does anyone ever question where you use them or make any checks on you.

Why is someone crazy because they have lots of guns?

However, he might have been caught making an illegal purchase, IF THE PURCHASES HAD BEEN ILLEGAL. All of this is very hypothetical, and we can all dream up "what-if" responses to defend our cases. My argument is for laws that would tend to reduce such incidents and their lethality. The fact that this particular nut also knew how to boobytrap his apartment with bombs does not mean that every nut would have necessarily committed mass murder by other means than the one chosen. That is not an argument for keeping assault weapons and high-capacity magazines legal. They should be outlawed in the same way that bombs are.


Rubbish. The fact that we manufacture a massive number of guns to feed the violence is a factor. That's why the Mexican drug cartels like to shop in Arizona. Another factor is that we have no uniform laws to impede the flow of guns across internal political borders, which is why most guns used by criminals in Washington DC come from legal purchases in Virginia. Our problem with guns is not caused by geography and physical location. It is caused by our myopic approach to the availability of guns.


False analogy. Drugs and guns pose different threats to society and require different social policies to deal with them. Nobody is going to injure over 70 people in just a few minutes with a bag of weed.


OK, let's just stop right there. This is not about you. I don't know why you feel you need all those weapons, but maybe you haven't felt any need to use them yet. Tomorrow, who knows? Nobody volunteers to go crazy. There was probably a time in the life of Mr. Holmes when he didn't desire to slaughter scores of people in a crowded movie theater. The point is that he could prepare for such a moment without violating any laws at all.


Yes, we do need to improve our public policies on the treatment of mental health. That is a completely separate issue from whether we need to curtail the availability of weapons of mass destruction to those people who don't get treated in a timely fashion.

Here's the thing that our pro-gun friends just don't get. What if the police had known about the Holmes arsenal before he committed himself? Could they have done anything about it? Yes, if they knew that he possessed bombs. No, if they just knew that he possessed guns, ammo, and high-capacity magazines. Collectors of assault rifles may think it unfair to make them give up their gun collections. I think it unfair for those people in the movie theater to have given up their lives so that gun collectors can enjoy their collections of usable assault weapons.

There is so much anger and fear-mongering in this, I don't know where to begin...

It is not unrealistic. The idea that you have the right to bear arms in order to overthrow a government armed with aircraft carriers, nukes and apaches seems a bit contrived unless you are saying everyone has a right to own their own nuke...

The right to bear arms justified by being able to overthrow the us government is not an argument worth consideration.

...we have militia forces with jets, choppers and tanks... civillian militias... they would do all the heavy stuff while your hick with an AK47 served the cannon fodder infintry role.

 

[England my lionheart]

One man was being interviewed on TV and said that when that right to bear arms was included it was because the Europeans had to make sure they could fight and kill the natives of America. Later the right to bear arms was to ensure they could control the black slaves on their plantations etc.

Originally he said that was the reason.

Today what is the reason to be able to go into a restaurant perfectly legally and eat dinner with a pistol strapped to your belt!

Again this seems crazy to me although my Wifes Cousin lived in Fort Worth Texas and then New Orleans where he felt worried enough to buy a Pistol.

 

[jasonwill2]

Again this seems crazy to me although my Wifes Cousin lived in Fort Worth Texas and then New Orleans where he felt worried enough to buy a Pistol.

Thing is, in most places openly carrying a deadly weapon in the US is illegal or at least asking for trouble. unless you got a concealed weapons permit...but then it's hidden.

 

[England my lionheart]

Jasonwill2 Quote:

I didn't hear of them being automatic pistols, or any of his weapons being automatic. I think they were all semi. and yes, the difference is important because full auto means you just hold the trigger, semi means one shot per a pull, and fires much slower.

For accuracy its better to fire sporadic bursts,semi or automatic the end result is the same apart from the number of casualties.

Why is someone crazy because they have lots of guns?

I never said anyone was crazy,what i actually said is it seems crazy to me that anyone would have that many weapons in their house with over a thousand rounds of ammo,it would make more sense,at least to me if those weapons were kept in a Gun club armoury.

 

[England my lionheart]

Thing is, in most places openly carrying a deadly weapon in the US is illegal or at least asking for trouble. unless you got a concealed weapons permit...but then it's hidden.

.
As per my Wifes Cousin who felt the need for one