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American parents

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Some degree of bullying is common throughout the animal kingdom.
It establishes a pecking order in society to the extent of even killing the weakest members.
You might suppose that humans would have outgrown the need for this. However children only reflect what they see going on in their own worlds.

Many families only understand how to create some sort of order by bullying. This is rapidly recognised by their children and used in their own lives.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
My daughter is about ready to get her G.E.D. on her 17th birthday after a life of homeschooling. I don't regret a single day of giving her relief from the kind of bullying I've seen and heard from our three older sons. She has no body image issues, no self-confidence issues, and the extra-curriculur activity we put her in was karate (she's a black belt).
That's pretty much what my parents did with me. School was so hard on me that when I was a kid I was an anxious wreck, crying and puking a lot, and I had stomach problems to the point that in second grade a doctor thought I was having stomach ulcers because not only was I being bullied, I was having an especially hard time with my teacher that year. Fifth grade was overall just a very bad year for me (my grades slipped enough that I had to do summer school), and my parents home schooled me after that. And then I went back to high school, and even though it wasn't nearly as bad, it still wasn't a good time because I had a hard time trusting or opening up to anyone (things I still struggle with).
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Why should conformity be encouraged?
Are you not trying to encourage the conformity to not bully? Even suggesting that we use criminal penal measures do so?

Conformity serves a purpose. We want and need conformity. Conformity is so basic of a necessity that we could not operate without it. The problem is in defining the line of which conformity is desirable and which is not.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Are you not trying to encourage the conformity to not bully? Even suggesting that we use criminal penal measures do so?

Conformity serves a purpose. We want and need conformity. Conformity is so basic of a necessity that we could not operate without it. The problem is in defining the line of which conformity is desirable and which is not.
Conformity isn't the word I'd use for that. It's more about respecting the rights of others.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I think you're being silly and you're just trying to defend bullying.
No. My questions just require more analysis than three kids throwing rocks at a fourth. I think people jump on the anti-bullying bandwagon without much critical thought.

It doesn't take much thought to realize that a group of kids systematically harassing and assaulting an individual for factors outside that individual's control is something we don't want to support. However, the argument bullying or teasing is bad or wrong is much more of an inclusive argument than just those instances. And tbh, if we could avoid some behaviors with teasing (a form of manipulation) instead of punishing (or worse not punishing) major taboo behaviors after the fact, then perhaps teasing can be good.

Then there is the whole teasing vs. Bullying discussion. Where is the line? I think bullying is a buzz word and the people who are most vocal against it have given little thought to the subject. I am not advocating for bullying, I am analyzing it and encouraging others to do the same.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I think bullying is a buzz word and the people who are most vocal against it have given little thought to the subject.
Or, they've had plenty of thoughts considering it because they have been through it or have seen how it tears people down.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Or, they've had plenty of thoughts considering it because they have been through it or have seen how it tears people down.
Again sounds like an emotional response. Because someone bit me and I didn't like it, does not mean all biting is bad. After all, I couldn't eat as well without biting.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
And for those unresponsive? And can positive reinforcement and natural consequences amount to bullying?
Well that's how we do it anyway. If you "conform" then you're not excluded. As a social species this is seen by most of us as desirable. Therefore being included is positive reinforcement for us. However you can easily say that exclusion is a form of bullying, in and of itself. So.....Yes, positive reinforcement and natural consequence can amount to bullying.

Why would we want conformity outside of law abiding anyway? I proudly don't conform to traditional femininity, I like many "boy" things. That makes me happy. My nephew likes some traditionally "girly" things. That makes him happy. I won't conform, I won't force my nephew to conform and I won't apologise either.
. I was never bullied, in fact many of my classmates protected me during school, maybe because I'm little and awkward. Though I made it a point to know at least one grade 12 student during each year of High School. Truth be told, at least at my school, you just did your own thing and made friends with people who accepted you for you.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
No. My questions just require more analysis than three kids throwing rocks at a fourth. I think people jump on the anti-bullying bandwagon without much critical thought.

It doesn't take much thought to realize that a group of kids systematically harassing and assaulting an individual for factors outside that individual's control is something we don't want to support. However, the argument bullying or teasing is bad or wrong is much more of an inclusive argument than just those instances. And tbh, if we could avoid some behaviors with teasing (a form of manipulation) instead of punishing (or worse not punishing) major taboo behaviors after the fact, then perhaps teasing can be good.

Then there is the whole teasing vs. Bullying discussion. Where is the line? I think bullying is a buzz word and the people who are most vocal against it have given little thought to the subject. I am not advocating for bullying, I am analyzing it and encouraging others to do the same.
Your nitpicking is silly and stupid. People should treated with compassion and respect at all times. Teasing, taunting, making fun of people, etc. are all inappropriate. Case closed.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Well that's how we do it anyway. If you "conform" then you're not excluded. As a social species this is seen by most of us as desirable. Therefore being included is positive reinforcement for us. However you can easily say that exclusion is a form of bullying, in and of itself. So.....Yes, positive reinforcement and natural consequence can amount to bullying.

Why would we want conformity outside of law abiding anyway? I proudly don't conform to traditional femininity, I like many "boy" things. That makes me happy. My nephew likes some traditionally "girly" things. That makes him happy. I won't conform, I won't force my nephew to conform and I won't apologise either.
. I was never bullied, in fact many of my classmates protected me during school, maybe because I'm little and awkward. Though I made it a point to know at least one grade 12 student during each year of High School. Truth be told, at least at my school, you just did your own thing and made friends with people who accepted you for you.
So if positive reinforcement and natural consequences can amount to bullying, any advocating of no bullying would also be advocating to end this type of behavior when it falls into the bullying category?
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
So if positive reinforcement and natural consequences can amount to bullying, any advocating of no bullying would also be advocating to end this type of behavior when it falls into the bullying category?
Maybe. Depends on the advocates in question.
But bullying can lead to very negative mental health issues among young people. Even suicide. I don't see the problem in trying to get rid of at least some forms of bullying.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Your nitpicking is silly and stupid. People should treated with compassion and respect at all times. Teasing, taunting, making fun of people, etc. are all inappropriate. Case closed.
Or instead of silly and stupid it strikes to the crux of the problem. And any work towards answering these questions might provide meaningful change and a respite from harmful actions that jumping on the anti-bullying bandwagon cannot.

In a world where any amount of teasing, taunting or jeering can be considered bullying, people are going to work with subjective understanding in order to write off certain behavior. Fact of the matter, nearly everyone employs teasing. So, if we are all rallying against bullying, the natural reaction is the rationalization of "oh, that's not bullying." Well, now we have a problem. With no clear cut line, everyone is pointing fingers every which way (but loose), and teachers are ignoring some behaviors whilst pouncing and overreacting towards other harmless behavior.
Compassion and respect at all times? Give me a break. None of us are capable of such a goal, but yet school children should be held to such a standard? That is not very respectful or compassionate of the what is age appropriate. And to boot, you want to take criminal measures. Of all the ideas that are "silly" or "stupid" overreacting and bandwagon hopping beats out rational thought every time.

I would love to live in this world where we can all get along sans rules, but this world isn't it.

It is like you want to set up a world of black and white where something is either criminally punishable or loved and cherished. That is not how the world works.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Maybe. Depends on the advocates in question.
But bullying can lead to very negative mental health issues among young people. Even suicide. I don't see the problem in trying to get rid of at least some forms of bullying.
And I don't think anyone is trying to protect all bullying.

I am saying that manipulation of behavior is part of our world. One way in which we do this is through teasing and bullying. If we accept that not all bullying is bad or wrong, that is to remove the blanket speech and to truly define the problem, we can have a discussion.

So, when does bullying cross the line to that which we do not want? When is bullying more harmful than helpful?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Or instead of silly and stupid it strikes to the crux of the problem. And any work towards answering these questions might provide meaningful change and a respite from harmful actions that jumping on the anti-bullying bandwagon cannot.

In a world where any amount of teasing, taunting or jeering can be considered bullying, people are going to work with subjective understanding in order to write off certain behavior. Fact of the matter, nearly everyone employs teasing. So, if we are all rallying against bullying, the natural reaction is the rationalization of "oh, that's not bullying." Well, now we have a problem. With no clear cut line, everyone is pointing fingers every which way (but loose), and teachers are ignoring some behaviors whilst pouncing and overreacting towards other harmless behavior.
Compassion and respect at all times? Give me a break. None of us are capable of such a goal, but yet school children should be held to such a standard? That is not very respectful or compassionate of the what is age appropriate. And to boot, you want to take criminal measures. Of all the ideas that are "silly" or "stupid" overreacting and bandwagon hopping beats out rational thought every time.

I would love to live in this world where we can all get along sans rules, but this world isn't it.

It is like you want to set up a world of black and white where something is either criminally punishable or loved and cherished. That is not how the world works.
I see you gibbering on a lot without offering anything by way of a solution. In other words, you're just blowing a lot of hot air and not adding anything to the conversation.

I said it should be treated as criminal harassment, not to take "criminal measures". What the hell. o_O
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
And I don't think anyone is trying to protect all bullying.

I am saying that manipulation of behavior is part of our world. One way in which we do this is through teasing and bullying. If we accept that not all bullying is bad or wrong, that is to remove the blanket speech and to truly define the problem, we can have a discussion.

So, when does bullying cross the line to that which we do not want? When is bullying more harmful than helpful?

Yes, manipulation is part of our world. But we obviously have a line drawn where manipulation is unacceptable. Like for instance a female or male manipulating their partner into something they don't want to do, like abandon their friends or have sex. Most people consider this conniving at best and abusive at worst. So there are instances where manipulation is something inherently bad and can even lead to domestic violence. Which itself is a form of bullying.

Now someone proudly declaring that they are racist or sexist is free speech. I will not silence those opinions. But modern society has rules and etiquette, correct? It is considered impolite at best to go up to a Jewish person and declare them a "Kike" whatever that means. Is this not accurate in our society? You also cannot go around teasing or otherwise humiliating random people. This is against the law and you could be charged with harassment. This is especially inappropriate in professional settings as most work places have codified ethical standards.

Do you consider people who disobey codified law only to be arrested and put into jail or other punitive measures to be bullying? If so, why? We punish children when they misbehave, is that bullying? I would argue, no. That is cause and effect and even when adults and children are punished they have to be treated with dignity. You can't just treat them like a piece of ****. As that is actually against what we consider to be ethical standards.

So if we, as adults, do not tolerate harassment, teasing (except among friends) physical violence, emotional bullying to the point where those acts are actually against the law, why then do we expect not to teach children that these acts are wrong? Sure, a little leeway might be given, we might even investigate the home lives of bullies in order to try to help them, but for the most part bullying and teasing are literally against the law in our society. At least at an adult level. Where I live it's against the law at all levels of schooling as well.
So are you saying that we allow children to willfully break the law without any warnings from the adults who should know better only to throw them in jail once they leave the safety of school? How is that good parenting? How is that being a responsible adult? How is that fair to the bullies even who have gone through school without punishment, thinking that such behavior is therefore acceptable, only to be told later that such acts warrant fines or even jail time when they do such acts as an adult?

Hate speech is not against the law because it's speech, it can cause social disruption. It can even incite illegal acts like physical violence. That is not limiting free speech, that is holding people to account for their actions and manipulative acts.

Now, if someone is targeted specifically, that's teasing, harassment or bullying. This has nothing to do with free speech, this has to do with a school living up to it's ethical duty of care. It simply should not allow such a hate filled environment as that is against ethical standards (disagreeing with someone is not hate filled, felt the need to say that.)
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
Yes, manipulation is part of our world. But we obviously have a line drawn where manipulation is unacceptable. Like for instance a female or male manipulating their partner into something they don't want to do, like abandon their friends or have sex. Most people consider this conniving at best and abusive at worst. So there are instances where manipulation is something inherently bad and can even lead to domestic violence. Which itself is a form of bullying.

Now someone proudly declaring that they are racist or sexist is free speech. I will not silence those opinions. But modern society has rules and etiquette, correct? It is considered impolite at best to go up to a Jewish person and declare them a "Kike" whatever that means. Is this not accurate in our society? You also cannot go around teasing or otherwise humiliating random people. This is against the law and you could be charged with harassment. This is especially inappropriate in professional settings as most work places have codified ethical standards.

So if we, as adults, do not tolerate harassment, teasing (except among friends) physical violence, emotional bullying to the point where those acts are actually against the law, why then do we expect not to teach children that these acts are wrong? Sure, a little leeway might be given, we might even investigate the home lives of bullies in order to try to help them, but for the most part bullying and teasing are literally against the law in our society. At least at an adult level. Where I live it's against the law at all levels of schooling as well.
Hate speech is not against the law because it's speech, it can cause social disruption. It can even incite illegal acts like physical violence. That is not limiting free speech, that is holding people to account for their actions and manipulative acts.

Now, if someone is targeted specifically, that's teasing. This is wrong.
I don't think all types of bullying are illegal where anyone lives.

I would agree that emotional abuse in many contexts can be considered illegal, but it is hard to prove and certainly wouldn't be illegal in all contexts. However, I would agree that while emotional abuse is something we should strive to extinguish.

Now, let us examine shunning. So say a group of kids ceases all communication with another student. hell, say a whole school does. Certainly this is a form of bullying. On what grounds is this illegal or punishable? On what moral grounds can anyone force another to befriend or speak with someone?

Let us take another example. Say the kids use the term weird to describe another child. They talk about this other child in circles and discuss how weird the kid is. They discuss class happenings or outside of class happenings in order to provide examples of the weirdness. Surely this is bullying. Are we to prohibit children from expressing feelings of awkwardness toward or about another child?

Say a group of kids in h.s. or m.s. is discussing another child's sexuality. Imagine this child loses friends over their sexuality. Imagine jokes and serious concerns are voiced about not wanting to change with this child. Surely this is bullying. Are we to dictate the criteria on which children can friend or defriend each other? Are we to dictate that they are not allowed to discuss sexuality? Are we prohibit them from expressing in joke form concerns and misunderstandings that they have? Are we to prohibit them from discussing serious concerns with each other?

Part of the problem is bullying isn't just writing names on someone's car or locker, part of bullying is behavior which cannot be regulated or behavior which on its face is innocuous but only has an effect in a cumulative form.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I see you gibbering on a lot without offering anything by way of a solution. In other words, you're just blowing a lot of hot air and not adding anything to the conversation.

I said it should be treated as criminal harassment, not to take "criminal measures". What the hell. o_O
Adding to the conversation? Sorry I didn't jump on the bandwagon. I asked meaningful questions, if I didn't know better I might think you were trying to bully me to your point of view instead of addressing the content I have brought to the table.
 
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