American parents

[SomeRandom]

Now, let us examine shunning. So say a group of kids ceases all communication with another student. hell, say a whole school does. Certainly this is a form of bullying. On what grounds is this illegal or punishable? On what moral grounds can anyone force another to befriend or speak with someone?

My school did that. If someone was excluded we were all chastised. Asked how we would feel and academic exercises encouraging the excluded child to participate in a group were issued. No one made us include said child, but the teachers didn't throw up their hands and give up either.

Let us take another example. Say the kids use the term weird to describe another child. They talk about this other child in circles and discuss how weird the kid is. They discuss class happenings or outside of class happenings in order to provide examples of the weirdness. Surely this is bullying. Are we to prohibit children from expressing feelings of awkwardness toward or about another child?

Again my school did that. At primary school the teachers called them "put downs" and a punishment was issued when a child used them towards another child. They did this to encourage empathy and to teach children that name calling is unacceptable behavior. They also gave us brief discussions about rumors or talking behind the backs of people, the consequences for the child who was spoken about and we learnt that such behavior was unacceptable. You do know that teachers have the power to teach kids things, right?
At high school gossiping was everywhere but most people grew out of childish antics or rolled their eyes at it.

Say a group of kids in h.s. or m.s. is discussing another child's sexuality. Imagine this child loses friends over their sexuality. Imagine jokes and serious concerns are voiced about not wanting to change with this child. Surely this is bullying. Are we to dictate the criteria on which children can friend or defriend each other? Are we to dictate that they are not allowed to discuss sexuality? Are we prohibit them from expressing in joke form concerns and misunderstandings that they have? Are we to prohibit them from discussing serious concerns with each other?

You mean homophobic bullying? Yes, this also was punished at my school and we learnt such behavior was wrong. The school also had very lengthy discussions about sexual expression, sexual identity and sexuality with us. We voiced our concerns and teachers actually taught us.

Having a laugh is one thing. But to target someone specifically in order to humiliate them for a joke is unacceptable behaviour. Christ, this is basic etiquette here.

What lenient/lazy freaking faculty did you have at school, mate? None of this was ever tolerated when I went to school.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Or instead of silly and stupid it strikes to the crux of the problem. And any work towards answering these questions might provide meaningful change and a respite from harmful actions that jumping on the anti-bullying bandwagon cannot.

In a world where any amount of teasing, taunting or jeering can be considered bullying, people are going to work with subjective understanding in order to write off certain behavior. Fact of the matter, nearly everyone employs teasing. So, if we are all rallying against bullying, the natural reaction is the rationalization of "oh, that's not bullying." Well, now we have a problem. With no clear cut line, everyone is pointing fingers every which way (but loose), and teachers are ignoring some behaviors whilst pouncing and overreacting towards other harmless behavior.
Compassion and respect at all times? Give me a break. None of us are capable of such a goal, but yet school children should be held to such a standard? That is not very respectful or compassionate of the what is age appropriate. And to boot, you want to take criminal measures. Of all the ideas that are "silly" or "stupid" overreacting and bandwagon hopping beats out rational thought every time.

I would love to live in this world where we can all get along sans rules, but this world isn't it.

It is like you want to set up a world of black and white where something is either criminally punishable or loved and cherished. That is not how the world works.

You want a line between teasing and bullying and what is ok?

If a kid is getting teased, and is laughing along with the teasers, it's probably ok.
If he/she is getting teased and looks upset about it, I'd say it was definitely not ok.

The problem with bullying and teasing is less the content, and rather the outcomes.

For example. If my good friend calls me "******" after I tell him about a musical I want to see, I might laugh and tell him shut up, because I know he doesn't mean it harshly, and he knows I don't mind his teasing in that kind of friendly fashion. However, if someone else tried that, I'd probably get rather offended and hurt by it.

What i'm trying to get at, is that even teasing is not ok, unless expressly welcomed. You don't know how words can affect another without being inside their heads. Words can and do have significant consequences, even if they seem harmless...

 

[Curious George]

My school did that. If someone was excluded we were all chastised. Asked how we would feel and academic exercises encouraging the excluded child to participate in a group were issued. No one made us include said child, but the teachers didn't throw up their hands and give up either.


Again my school did that. At primary school the teachers called them "put downs" and a punishment was issued when a child used them towards another child. They did this to encourage empathy and to teach children that name calling is unacceptable behavior. They also gave us brief discussions about rumors or talking behind the backs of people, the consequences for the child who was spoken about and we learnt that such behavior was unacceptable. You do know that teachers have the power to teach kids things, right?
At high school gossiping was everywhere but most people grew out of childish antics or rolled their eyes at it.


You mean homophobic bullying? Yes, this also was punished at my school and we learnt such behavior was wrong. The school also had very lengthy discussions about sexual expression, sexual identity and sexuality with us. We voiced our concerns and teachers actually taught us.

Having a laugh is one thing. But to target someone specifically in order to humiliate them for a joke is unacceptable behaviour. Christ, this is basic etiquette here.

What lenient/lazy freaking faculty did you have at school, mate? None of this was ever tolerated when I went to school.

So what I am hearing is that the school used its authority and the childrens lack of authority to conform the behavior that was by itself not against any rules. Not because the behavior was wrong or against the law but because they did not like it.

So targeting a group of students to humiliate them for not including another child, or thinking that other child is weird, or feeling uncomfortable around another child is acceptable because it is for "learning."

Teachers have the power to teach kids but none of the above listed behavior (if the jokes that could be construed as sexual harassment were not directed or said in front of the kid).

Should the teachers do something? Absolutely. But the point is that any one event involving these circumstances is not punishable. But cumulatively they can be bullying. Do you really think the teachers should intervene every time one kid doesn't want to interact with another? Anytime a joke about another's sexuality is allegedly made? Anytime there is a rumor?

what overbearing, helicopter teacher school did you go to, mate?

So with that out of the way, at what point do teachers intervene?

 

[Curious George]

You want a line between teasing and bullying and what is ok?

If a kid is getting teased, and is laughing along with the teasers, it's probably ok.
If he/she is getting teased and looks upset about it, I'd say it was definitely not ok.

The problem with bullying and teasing is less the content, and rather the outcomes.

For example. If my good friend calls me "******" after I tell him about a musical I want to see, I might laugh and tell him shut up, because I know he doesn't mean it harshly, and he knows I don't mind his teasing in that kind of friendly fashion. However, if someone else tried that, I'd probably get rather offended and hurt by it.

What i'm trying to get at, is that even teasing is not ok, unless expressly welcomed. You don't know how words can affect another without being inside their heads. Words can and do have significant consequences, even if they seem harmless...

Yet, you tease, I tease...and kids tease. How exactly should this teasing be stopped?

If you can't get into someone's head, how is an outsider supposed to know when teasing is okay and when it is not. Am I supposed to intervene when your buddy teases you? I don't know that it is okay. Nor do I believe that most people give each other express permission to call them names.

Name calling is easy for the most part. In schools we can say no name calling. The problems come when we try to regulate non-school behavior, or there isn't an obvious cue such as name calling.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Yet, you tease, I tease...and kids tease. How exactly should this teasing be stopped?

If you can't get into someone's head, how is an outsider supposed to know when teasing is okay and when it is not. Am I supposed to intervene when your buddy teases you? I don't know that it is okay. Nor do I believe that most people give each other express permission to call them names.

Name calling is easy for the most part. In schools we can say no name calling. The problems come when we try to regulate non-school behavior, or there isn't an obvious cue such as name calling.

I think there are several factors...

The intent - whether the teaser is intending to share a joke with the teased, or if the teaser is meaning to make the teased feel worse about themselves.

How well they are known to each other - obviously close friends and family may more easily tease someone, because they are more likely to know how the teased person will take it, and are less likely to intend harm or insult.

I would hope that one friend intervenes with the teasing of another if it's clear that it wasn't taken well. In my example before, the friend who jokingly calls me a ****** for liking a musical would stand up for me if another friend said the same thing with less joking intent.

Point is, I guess, that teasing depends on the delivery, the intent, the social situation, how well they're known to one another. Every situation is different. What needs to be taught, perhaps, is a little more empathy, and understanding of how the things we say and do can affect those around us.

 

[Curious George]

I think there are several factors...

The intent - whether the teaser is intending to share a joke with the teased, or if the teaser is meaning to make the teased feel worse about themselves.

How well they are known to each other - obviously close friends and family may more easily tease someone, because they are more likely to know how the teased person will take it, and are less likely to intend harm or insult.

I would hope that one friend intervenes with the teasing of another if it's clear that it wasn't taken well. In my example before, the friend who jokingly calls me a ****** for liking a musical would stand up for me if another friend said the same thing with less joking intent.

Point is, I guess, that teasing depends on the delivery, the intent, the social situation, how well they're known to one another. Every situation is different. What needs to be taught, perhaps, is a little more empathy, and understanding of how the things we say and do can affect those around us.

I absolutely agree that we need more focus on both empathy and social cues.

But I find it interesting that you say intervention should occur when it is clear that it wasn't taken well. Should teasing stop only when it is clear that it isn't taken well?

 

[SomeRandom]

So what I am hearing is that the school used its authority and the childrens lack of authority to conform the behavior that was by itself not against any rules. Not because the behavior was wrong or against the law but because they did not like it.

No, the school used both negative and positive reinforcement on young children in order to discourage name calling, something which we as a society reject as childish stupidity. This is a very basic lesson in common bloody courtesy. Not to mention teasing, which includes calling people names, IS against the bloody rules in schools. Christ, what sort of flimsy code of conduct do you think schools expect of their students?

So targeting a group of students to humiliate them for not including another child, or thinking that other child is weird, or feeling uncomfortable around another child is acceptable because it is for "learning."

No one was humiliated, in fact, humiliation is explicitly discouraged in the teaching profession as unethical and outdated. Even sarcasm is discouraged in teachers, at least at a primary school level when students are still too young to catch onto such concepts. What happened was this. A kid was excluded, I can't remember why it was years ago. The teacher saw this, discouraged this behavior in class by utilizing a common punishment method (in this case reasoning, they explained to us why such behavior was wrong) and used an academic strategy in order to try to foster inclusion.
Christ with this logic I should go back to high school and sue every teacher who gave me detention, because apparently they were bullying me. Never mind that it is their job to maintain discipline, respect for rules and use their authority to teach me through various methods (including negative reinforcement.) And to try to foster a healthy safe environment for their students as is their duty of care! Like you are aware of what job teachers and the school have, aren't you?

Teachers have the power to teach kids but none of the above listed behavior (if the jokes that could be construed as sexual harassment were not directed or said in front of the kid).

But they do. In fact it is part of their freaking job, mate.
A teacher has the power to shape the minds and behaviors of their students. In fact it is their job to shape the behavior of their students. That's why teachers have the power/authority to give out detentions, extra homework, send kids to the RTC/SSC or even call the police to report criminal actions! It is their job not only to teach and monitor their charges, but to act as a parental figure and encourage or discourage certain behaviors through common agreed upon punishment or reward methods.

Are you seriously trying to say basic psychological methods (like negative or positive reinforcement) which is used at practically every level of society to maintain civility is nothing but bullying? Seriously? Perhaps your should be in another thread discussing the merits or lack thereof in common strategies utilized in civilization to repress the animal instincts of us all. Because I could see that as an interesting discussion and we'd probably be in agreement somewhat.. But I don't know how one could use it to dismiss or minimize or discourage practices designed to at least attempt to avoid schoolyard bullying. A school is much like a practice run of workplaces. There is a far more strict code to adhere to than during your personal time, even among society at large. This is why we actively discourage harassment, potentially offensive jokes, teasing, physical violence and other types of bullying. A debate setting, which is often provided by said school, is where you can air your grievances or engage in potentially potent dialogue.
But a school/university is not a 24/7 debate setting. There is a time and a place for everything, is what I'm trying to get at here. And school/work is not the time or the place to be bullying people or trying to offend people. I mean teasing among friends is one thing, but harassing someone is not okay. It should be judged on a case by case basis, but that doesn't mean we just allow it as "oh kids will be kids."
The only exception to that is in a particularly heated discussion in an art/English class about something provocative. Which I think should occur in High Schools, but that's another topic. And even then usually the teacher will stop such a thing at a certain point. If only to maintain some small semblance of decorum.

Should the teachers do something? Absolutely. But the point is that any one event involving these circumstances is not punishable. But cumulatively they can be bullying. Do you really think the teachers should intervene every time one kid doesn't want to interact with another? Anytime a joke about another's sexuality is allegedly made? Anytime there is a rumor?

No I don't think they should intervene every single time. But during primary school, especially during younger grades, they sort of do. This is to be consistent.
And though as kids get older the supervision is less strict, if a teacher notices or hears of a bullying instance, it is their ethical duty to freaking intervene. At what point? Well how about when a grade schooler is ****ing crying? How about when the safety of one of their students is threatened? I'm not saying they should be helicopter idiots, nor am I saying that the have to or can intervene every single time, but I am saying they should do their ****ing job.

 

[methylatedghosts]

I absolutely agree that we need more focus on both empathy and social cues.

But I find it interesting that you say intervention should occur when it is clear that it wasn't taken well. Should teasing stop only when it is clear that it isn't taken well?

I think teasing should only begin if you know it's going to be taken in the light-hearted manner as would be intended as a joke between good friends

 

[Curious George]

No, the school used both negative and positive reinforcement on young children in order to discourage name calling, something which we as a society reject as childish stupidity. This is a very basic lesson in common bloody courtesy. Not to mention teasing, which includes calling people names, IS against the bloody rules in schools. Christ, what sort of flimsy code of conduct do you think schools expect of their students?



No one was humiliated, in fact, humiliation is explicitly discouraged in the teaching profession as unethical and outdated. Even sarcasm is discouraged in teachers, at least at a primary school level when students are still too young to catch onto such concepts. What happened was this. A kid was excluded, I can't remember why it was years ago. The teacher saw this, discouraged this behavior in class by utilizing a common punishment method (in this case reasoning, they explained to us why such behavior was wrong) and used an academic strategy in order to try to foster inclusion.
Christ with this logic I should go back to high school and sue every teacher who gave me detention, because apparently they were bullying me. Never mind that it is their job to maintain discipline, respect for rules and use their authority to teach me through various methods (including negative reinforcement.) And to try to foster a healthy safe environment for their students as is their duty of care! Like you are aware of what job teachers and the school have, aren't you?



But they do. In fact it is part of their freaking job, mate.
A teacher has the power to shape the minds and behaviors of their students. In fact it is their job to shape the behavior of their students. That's why teachers have the power/authority to give out detentions, extra homework, send kids to the RTC/SSC or even call the police to report criminal actions! It is their job not only to teach and monitor their charges, but to act as a parental figure and encourage or discourage certain behaviors through common agreed upon punishment or reward methods.

Are you seriously trying to say basic psychological methods (like negative or positive reinforcement) which is used at practically every level of society to maintain civility is nothing but bullying? Seriously? Perhaps your should be in another thread discussing the merits or lack thereof in common strategies utilized in civilization to repress the animal instincts of us all. Because I could see that as an interesting discussion and we'd probably be in agreement somewhat.. But I don't know how one could use it to dismiss or minimize or discourage practices designed to at least attempt to avoid schoolyard bullying. A school is much like a practice run of workplaces. There is a far more strict code to adhere to than during your personal time, even among society at large. This is why we actively discourage harassment, potentially offensive jokes, teasing, physical violence and other types of bullying. A debate setting, which is often provided by said school, is where you can air your grievances or engage in potentially potent dialogue.
But a school/university is not a 24/7 debate setting. There is a time and a place for everything, is what I'm trying to get at here. And school/work is not the time or the place to be bullying people or trying to offend people. I mean teasing among friends is one thing, but harassing someone is not okay. It should be judged on a case by case basis, but that doesn't mean we just allow it as "oh kids will be kids."
The only exception to that is in a particularly heated discussion in an art/English class about something provocative. Which I think should occur in High Schools, but that's another topic. And even then usually the teacher will stop such a thing at a certain point. If only to maintain some small semblance of decorum.



No I don't think they should intervene every single time. But during primary school, especially during younger grades, they sort of do. This is to be consistent.
And though as kids get older the supervision is less strict, if a teacher notices or hears of a bullying instance, it is their ethical duty to freaking intervene. At what point? Well how about when a grade schooler is ****ing crying? How about when the safety of one of their students is threatened? I'm not saying they should be helicopter idiots, nor am I saying that the have to or can intervene every single time, but I am saying they should do their ****ing job.

Is it only bullying when the grade schooler is ****ing crying?

Yes, there is a likelihood that some of your teachers bullied you. It is an effective method of manipulating behavior, and kids learn it from somewhere, or it is natural (take your pick). But teasing is ubiquitous.

So if no kids want to be johnnys friend because he smells like...well a donkey. The teachers should chastise the other kids?

If other kids say a child is weird because he licks other people's faces, repeatedly, they are name calling?

It is normal to react to different-ness. Accepting this is key to those learning opportunities where teachersd do intervene. I think we are in agreement that if social behaviors are effecting the student academically, physically or emotionally in a substantial way, then intervention is needed.

However, blanket statements about how bullying is bad get us nowhere, or worse yet, lead us to "tough on bullying" stances such as zero tolerance policies.

It is part of the schools job to provide a safe atmosphere for learning. However, no school can reasonably be expected to get rid of all teasing. Teasing is a part of life, and kids as well as adults need to be able to self soothe to some degree. What is more, I would argue that some teasing can be beneficial. Teasing can get through because people feel the negative response from others that are natural consequences of their own different-ness.

Should we be making sure that children are exposed to diversity so immutable differences such as gender , abledness, sexuality, or race are not so different....yes. Should we be discussing differences openly so children understand? Yes. Should we react harshly when we see bullying? No. Why? Because it is normal. I am not saying it is kids being kids so we let it happen. But I fail to see how punishment will solve anything. Teachers are acting as parents. They should be acting as parents. Calling the cops should be reserved for the most extreme circumstances like murder rape sexual abuse or hospitaliziom of another child. We should not be calling the police for a joint, or a scuffle, or bringing a pocket knife to school. And we certainly should not be calling the cops for schoolyard bullying.

So to recap, I agree that intervention is necessary in some cases. I think some cases children should be offered to solve the problem independently and learn coping skills. I think teasing is normal behavior and bullying to a large extent is normal behavior. I think that overreacting to bullying is not helpful. And the best way to deal with bullying is diversity and exposure. Having an adult chastise you, or telling you that it is wrong to think a weird behavior is weird doesn't help anyone. And rumors are going to happen. You can tell the kids the story: http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/812861/jewish/A-Pillow-Full-of-Feathers.htm but you will not quash rumors. Rumors, alas, are natural as well.

 

[SomeRandom]

Is it only bullying when the grade schooler is ****ing crying?

I was being rather hyperbolic. I understand that's hard to get across in text.

Yes, there is a likelihood that some of your teachers bullied you. It is an effective method of manipulating behavior, and kids learn it from somewhere, or it is natural (take your pick). But teasing is ubiquitous.

So I should sue them, should I? Bullying by a teacher is a breach of their code of conduct, after all. I should go sell my story to the sensationalist news and get all my teachers fired/investigated because??? We were made aware of what consequences went with certain actions and then those consequences were applied by them to my actions (example all the times I was warned not to wag class or I'd get detention and then got detention after I was caught wagging.) And they call my generation one which tries to escape taking responsibility.
I've had a couple of particularly harsh High School teachers, but even they pulled back and on a few occasions apologized as soon as they noticed if someone was feeling uncomfortable with their actions/words. Professional standards and all that.
What exact definition of bullying are you using anyway? It sounds like you're talking about the SJW version. Negative reinforcement as a whole? Which would include jailing/fining and other punitive measures dished out to people who actively break our laws? That's bullying now too?
Christ now I know why you're arguing against stamping out bullying, literally everything is bullying. Are you bullying me now? Should I report this? Should you report me?

Okay, if Johnny is called a c**t by a bunch of boys, pushed into the dirt and punched in the face, that is a clear example of bullying. If however Johnny was friends with a bunch of boys and they called each other every name under the sun with a friendly tone, they jokingly pushed each other around and pretended to fight with each other, you could infer that that is not an instance of bullying. Rather some rough horseplay among friends.
Are we on the same page, now?

So if no kids want to be johnnys friend because he smells like...well a donkey. The teachers should chastise the other kids?

If they were anything like my teachers they would both chastise the class for mocking behavior and instruct Johnny on basic hygiene in private. Where are your solutions, anyway? All you seem to do is complain. Yes there are a lot of grey areas, yes we can't have blanket solutions for all bullying as many instances require a case by case examination. That doesn't mean we don't discourage ****ing bullying as a whole among school children. You don't see police officers allowing all murderers to go free just because of the fact that you are technically allowed to kill someone in self defense.
You can acknowledge/allow loop holes for grey areas and still punish or attempt to quell something, you know?

It is part of the schools job to provide a safe atmosphere for learning. However, no school can reasonably be expected to get rid of all teasing. Teasing is a part of life, and kids as well as adults need to be able to self soothe to some degree. What is more, I would argue that some teasing can be beneficial. Teasing can get through because people feel the negative response from others that are natural consequences of their own different-ness.

Define "beneficial" teasing specifically.

Should we be making sure that children are exposed to diversity so immutable differences such as gender , abledness, sexuality, or race are not so different....yes. Should we be discussing differences openly so children understand? Yes. Should we react harshly when we see bullying? No. Why? Because it is normal. I am not saying it is kids being kids so we let it happen. But I fail to see how punishment will solve anything. Teachers are acting as parents. They should be acting as parents. Calling the cops should be reserved for the most extreme circumstances like murder rape sexual abuse or hospitaliziom of another child. We should not be calling the police for a joint, or a scuffle, or bringing a pocket knife to school. And we certainly should not be calling the cops for schoolyard bullying.

Well actually, that depends, though I largely agree with you. A scuffle can be sorted out with mediators or other resources. However, police will still be informed in many instances. Since, you know, assault is against the law and schools have a legal obligation to report criminal offenses?
A single joint? Yeah I agree school can sort that out. A large quantity of weed/pills or other types of drugs often have to be reported to police, again as a legal obligation the school has.
A pocket knife? That probably depends on the teacher. I can see maybe an old school or manual arts teacher merely confiscating the knife and then returning it to the parent/s. Which I support, in lieu of a police call, by the way. But carrying concealed weaponry might warrant a police call as again, schools are obligated to report criminal offenses and I don't know many places which consider a concealed weapon of some type to not be an illegal offence. I mean, Christ the supermarkets aren't even allowed to sell plastic ****ing knives to minors under the age of 15!! I am not even kidding, I once had to deny access to a 10 year old buying last minute picnic supplies for his mum under instruction from my manger, even though both of us just wanted to let it slide. Bureaucracy mate, it's infested everywhere I swear to God.
Anyway we had a "School Officer" that is we always had at least one police officer on the grounds during school hours, probably due to this very reason.
Schoolyard Bullying? Again, something of technicality. There is often a line where it does becomes a criminal offense, depending on the area and their laws pertaining to that specifically. And when it crosses that line the school is legally obligated to report it to police. But that's usually a last resort, or when other crimes have been committed ie stalking or I don't know privacy laws due to cyber bullying or again "swatting." For example, in 2011 in New South Wales there was a Facebook page called "Root Rater" (root being slang for sex) and it asked people of various schools to send personal information about people they had sex with and what they rated the experience. This resulted in criminal charges for many students involved as it was against the ****ing law.

Am I saying that punishment should be the only method applied? No, of course not. There are other initiatives out there, like involving the student body, allowing them to sort it out themselves, discussions/debates with students to come up with strategies, mediation sessions, counselling and even police investigation into the home lives of students to ensure they are not being abused/neglected.

So to recap, I agree that intervention is necessary in some cases. I think some cases children should be offered to solve the problem independently and learn coping skills. I think teasing is normal behavior and bullying to a large extent is normal behavior. I think that overreacting to bullying is not helpful. And the best way to deal with bullying is diversity and exposure. Having an adult chastise you, or telling you that it is wrong to think a weird behavior is weird doesn't help anyone. And rumors are going to happen. You can tell the kids the story: http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/812861/jewish/A-Pillow-Full-of-Feathers.htm but you will not quash rumors. Rumors, alas, are natural as well.

Well I guess we actually ultimately agree after all. It's better to be pragmatic than to try to stamp it out completely.

 

[Curious George]

I was being rather hyperbolic. I understand that's hard to get across in text.


So I should sue them, should I? Bullying by a teacher is a breach of their code of conduct, after all. I should go sell my story to the sensationalist news and get all my teachers fired/investigated because??? We were made aware of what consequences went with certain actions and then those consequences were applied by them to my actions (example all the times I was warned not to wag class or I'd get detention and then got detention after I was caught wagging.) And they call my generation one which tries to escape taking responsibility.
I've had a couple of particularly harsh High School teachers, but even they pulled back and on a few occasions apologized as soon as they noticed if someone was feeling uncomfortable with their actions/words. Professional standards and all that.
What exact definition of bullying are you using anyway? It sounds like you're talking about the SJW version. Negative reinforcement as a whole? Which would include jailing/fining and other punitive measures dished out to people who actively break our laws? That's bullying now too?
Christ now I know why you're arguing against stamping out bullying, literally everything is bullying. Are you bullying me now? Should I report this? Should you report me?

Okay, if Johnny is called a c**t by a bunch of boys, pushed into the dirt and punched in the face, that is a clear example of bullying. If however Johnny was friends with a bunch of boys and they called each other every name under the sun with a friendly tone, they jokingly pushed each other around and pretended to fight with each other, you could infer that that is not an instance of bullying. Rather some rough horseplay among friends.
Are we on the same page, now?


If they were anything like my teachers they would both chastise the class for mocking behavior and instruct Johnny on basic hygiene in private. Where are your solutions, anyway? All you seem to do is complain. Yes there are a lot of grey areas, yes we can't have blanket solutions for all bullying as many instances require a case by case examination. That doesn't mean we don't discourage ****ing bullying as a whole among school children. You don't see police officers allowing all murderers to go free just because of the fact that you are technically allowed to kill someone in self defense.
You can acknowledge/allow loop holes for grey areas and still punish or attempt to quell something, you know?



Define "beneficial" teasing specifically.



Well actually, that depends, though I largely agree with you. A scuffle can be sorted out with mediators or other resources. However, police will still be informed in many instances. Since, you know, assault is against the law and schools have a legal obligation to report criminal offenses?
A single joint? Yeah I agree school can sort that out. A large quantity of weed/pills or other types of drugs often have to be reported to police, again as a legal obligation the school has.
A pocket knife? That probably depends on the teacher. I can see maybe an old school or manual arts teacher merely confiscating the knife and then returning it to the parent/s. Which I support, in lieu of a police call, by the way. But carrying concealed weaponry might warrant a police call as again, schools are obligated to report criminal offenses and I don't know many places which consider a concealed weapon of some type to not be an illegal offence. I mean, Christ the supermarkets aren't even allowed to sell plastic ****ing knives to minors under the age of 15!! I am not even kidding, I once had to deny access to a 10 year old buying last minute picnic supplies for his mum under instruction from my manger, even though both of us just wanted to let it slide. Bureaucracy mate, it's infested everywhere I swear to God.
Anyway we had a "School Officer" that is we always had at least one police officer on the grounds during school hours, probably due to this very reason.
Schoolyard Bullying? Again, something of technicality. There is often a line where it does becomes a criminal offense, depending on the area and their laws pertaining to that specifically. And when it crosses that line the school is legally obligated to report it to police. But that's usually a last resort, or when other crimes have been committed ie stalking or I don't know privacy laws due to cyber bullying or again "swatting." For example, in 2011 in New South Wales there was a Facebook page called "Root Rater" (root being slang for sex) and it asked people of various schools to send personal information about people they had sex with and what they rated the experience. This resulted in criminal charges for many students involved as it was against the ****ing law.

Am I saying that punishment should be the only method applied? No, of course not. There are other initiatives out there, like involving the student body, allowing them to sort it out themselves, discussions/debates with students to come up with strategies, mediation sessions, counselling and even police investigation into the home lives of students to ensure they are not being abused/neglected.



Well I guess we actually ultimately agree after all. It's better to be pragmatic than to try to stamp it out completely.

I think we need to stop. What exactly is this report to the police mandate to which you are referring. Schools are not required to report all illegal activities to the police. Excepting of course schools which have placed such a burden on themselves with zero tolerance laws. I do not know UK or AU law, so if such is the case there please direct me to the law to which you are referring.

In the u.s. schools are considered to act in loco parentis. Consequently many constitutional rights are diminished. It is a pet peeve of mine that the schools are becoming more of a pipeline to courts and jail and thus the loco parentis responsibility is diminishing, while the civil rights of the students are not being reinstated. Here in the states we have teachers and principals strip searching children (even elementary aged) And you want to talk about ****ing bullying?

Yeah, teachers bully. Should you sue? No, you will lose. Why? because not all bullying crosses into harassment or assault or child abuse in the instance of teachers.

No, I am not using the sjw definition of bullying. But if there is a power discrepancy and shame, teasing, or demeaning comments made then that should suffice for what most would call bullying. This power discrepancy can be physical, power in numbers, social, or authoritarian.

Bullying is essentially the strong picking on the weak, or the advantaged picking on the disadvantaged. Following through with consequences, such as issuing a detention, is not bullying. But, I think you could return to your alma mater and observe and find at least one teacher guilty of bullying.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think we need to stop. What exactly is this report to the police mandate to which you are referring. Schools are not required to report all illegal activities to the police. Excepting of course schools which have placed such a burden on themselves with zero tolerance laws. I do not know UK or AU law, so if such is the case there please direct me to the law to which you are referring.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. When a serious crime is committed or as a last resort in a lot of bullying instances, the school is obligated to report such activities to police. And obviously anything related to suspicion of child abuse of any kind. This does not mean every single illegal thing. I was referring to specific instances where schools had their hands tied or so they claimed. Admittedly with some hyperbole and tongue in cheek. But schools are seemingly more and more reliant on police nowadays. I just assumed either because of the law or maybe teachers are getting fed up? I don't know.

In the u.s. schools are considered to act in loco parentis. Consequently many constitutional rights are diminished. It is a pet peeve of mine that the schools are becoming more of a pipeline to courts and jail and thus the loco parentis responsibility is diminishing, while the civil rights of the students are not being reinstated. Here in the states we have teachers and principals strip searching children (even elementary aged) And you want to talk about ****ing bullying?

Strip searching? That's...........creepy. But at least your constitution has very specific individual rights codified. Ours at least for minors are still being implemented!!

Yeah, teachers bully. Should you sue? No, you will lose. Why? because not all bullying crosses into harassment or assault or child abuse in the instance of teachers.

Alas, there goes my cushy settlement fee.

No, I am not using the sjw definition of bullying. But if there is a power discrepancy and shame, teasing, or demeaning comments made then that should suffice for what most would call bullying. This power discrepancy can be physical, power in numbers, social, or authoritarian.

Fair enough.

Bullying is essentially the strong picking on the weak, or the advantaged picking on the disadvantaged. Following through with consequences, such as issuing a detention, is not bullying. But, I think you could return to your alma mater and observe and find at least one teacher guilty of bullying.

What's an alma mater?

I don't know. In today's world of phones and interwebz a bullying teacher might not get away with bullying for that long. I mean my younger cousin apparently got one teacher fired for secretly recording him using what was deemed to be "inappropriate language." Read racial insensitivity and he was allegedly on his last warning or whatever they give to teachers. From what she tells me he was a prick anyway, but you know what teens are like.

 

[Father Heathen]

There is a staggeringly large amount of worthless parents and teachers in our society. It's infuriating and depressing.