An appeal for the logic of religious belief

[Super Universe]

Prove that gravity is an aspect of God.

Prove that energy/matter is an aspect of God.

Prove that consciousness is an aspect of God.

Prove that the universe is an aspect of God.

Sigh... I could really go on and on, and on...

Narrow minds...

I fixed it for you, you should really pay attention to what you type. Only an uneducated individual would even think it is a smart idea to try and prove something is false before it is proven true, but I know you would never make that mistake. :yes:

I did not try and prove a thing. I simply asked Crystalonyx to prove his claim.

Seems you outsmarted yourself...

 

[Super Universe]

He wasn't asked a question. This was just another "prove it false" argument which is stupid and gets us nowhere.

If you make a claim there should be some reasonable supporting evidence.

If you have no evidence for God, that does not mean there is no God, it just means you don't have any evidence for Him.

 

[rojse]

You gave no differences. I'll tell you something you don't know, gravity comes from God. When you measure it you are measuring one tiny aspect of God.

Many differences between Gravity and God:
- There are many proposals to create devices that measure the effects of gravity, and one has even been built. There are none proposed or created to measure the existence of God.
- Gravity always works. God decides when he wants to work.
- Gravity does not care whether you believe or not
- Gravity is needed to explain many real-world phenomena today, from flight to the motion of a ball, to why things stay on the ground. God, as you make it, is only an appendage to this: "gravity exists, but only through God."

Everyone always says that God chooses what He wishes to do? Who cares what everyone says? Are you going to make up your own mind about the world and universe we live in and become an adult who makes their own decisions or are you going to follow the crowd as they play follow their leader like geese?

Certainly, I have made up my own mind, and that is that God does not exist.

I can only take everyone else's say so on matters of God, seeing as though I do not believe in him. If we were having an argument about unicorns, I can't very well make up what I think a unicorn should look like. I would ask those that actually believe in unicorns as to what they think they look like, because they have experience in an area that I do not.

God is of other people's minds, so I need to go with their thoughts on the matter. Currently, I view God merely as a mental construct of the human mind.

When you pray to God you don't get what you prayed for? What do you think this is, a universe designed just to suit rojse's wishes?

You should know by now that it's not about you. You have hands and feet don't you? If you want something make it happen, go out and get it. If you're not happy about having to work and earn things, well, that's just too damn bad. If you don't like this universe then create your own.

I would have answered the second question with a "yes, but not yet", but it seems that you have answered it already.

If I have to do everything myself, without any assistance from a higher agent, where do you wish to insert God?

I can say that God's effects are the laws of physics and He is much more than a GUT Theory. He is All That Is.

God is science?

 

[Super Universe]

Many differences between Gravity and God:
- There are many proposals to create devices that measure the effects of gravity, and one has even been built. There are none proposed or created to measure the existence of God.
- Gravity always works. God decides when he wants to work.
- Gravity does not care whether you believe or not
- Gravity is needed to explain many real-world phenomena today, from flight to the motion of a ball, to why things stay on the ground. God, as you make it, is only an appendage to this: "gravity exists, but only through God."



Certainly, I have made up my own mind, and that is that God does not exist.

I can only take everyone else's say so on matters of God, seeing as though I do not believe in him. If we were having an argument about unicorns, I can't very well make up what I think a unicorn should look like. I would ask those that actually believe in unicorns as to what they think they look like, because they have experience in an area that I do not.

God is of other people's minds, so I need to go with their thoughts on the matter. Currently, I view God merely as a mental construct of the human mind.



I would have answered the second question with a "yes, but not yet", but it seems that you have answered it already.

If I have to do everything myself, without any assistance from a higher agent, where do you wish to insert God?



God is science?

You still have not provided a single difference between God and gravity.

Gravity always works, God works when He wants to. If I write something about you in a book does it make it true?

Gravity does not care whether you believe or not? You, of course, have some evidence that it doesn't?

Gravity is needed to explain the real world and God is only an appendage? Not if God created it all.

Your statements are without any foundation because you don't know enough about gravity nor do you know enough about God to compare or contrast the two.

God is the original scientist.

 

[rojse]

You still have not provided a single difference between God and gravity

I do believe I did, and I will answer them again.

Gravity always works, God works when He wants to. If I write something about you in a book does it make it true?

Most of the people whom believe in God say that he works according to his own plans. Their idea, not mine. Some of them came up with it themselves, others got it out of the Bible. In this regard, I can only agree with their view on the matter of God, seeing as though I believe they created this phenomena themselves.

Gravity does not care whether you believe or not? You, of course, have some evidence that it doesn't?

Gravity has always worked when we consider it within our domain. Let us exclude any far-flung reach of the universe. As of right now, there are no anomalies that we are aware of that can be blamed by gravity. There aren't any reports of people that float away into the cosmos because gravity stopped working for them, is there?

I am waiting agog in case there are actually reports to the contrary.

Gravity is needed to explain the real world and God is only an appendage? Not if God created it all.

Firstly, that's a pretty big if. Not everyone will agree with you on that one.

Secondly, we do need gravity to explain how the world works. How can I stay on the ground when I stand up? My explanation is due to the effects of gravity. Your explanation is due to the effects of gravity, through God's powers. That way of explanation seems like it is merely an appendage to the physical explanation to me.

Your statements are without any foundation because you don't know enough about gravity nor do you know enough about God to compare or contrast the two.

Just because what I have come to conclude about God, through what others have posted, is different to you, does not mean I know less than you. It's just that I know differently.

Considering that God is based on belief and opinions, and this is based on individual experience and personal introspection, I am unsurprised about this difference in belief.

Please don't throw around unconstructive insults, though. It makes you seem like less of a poster when you do that.

God is the original scientist.

Should I agree with you that he existed, I would certainly agree with that.

 

[Super Universe]

Sigh... You still have not shown any difference between God and gravity.

Here, let me help. First, in order to show a difference between two things you must have some evidence of at least one aspect of each of those things, then you compare and contrast them.

Since you have NO evidence of God you can't define a difference. Also, your evidence of gravity is slim at best. You don't know what exactly it is (particle-graviton or wave energy?) and you don't know where it comes from. You think gravity comes from matter but it might just be like heat and light, they often travel together but they don't cause each other, they each still need a source.

So, basically you are trying to assert that one thing you know nothing at all about is somehow different from something else you know almost nothing about.

If God created it all is a pretty big if? No more than saying that somehow the universe happened on it's own without direction.

Insults? No one insulted you.

 

[Sola'lor]

My only statement, and I don't know if it has been said before, is that Everything we see in the universe is under God's influence. We have never seen the universe without God's control. Therefor we have nothing to compare it with. So the universe under Gods control looks like what many would assume to be the universe without God's control. But until until we see the universe without God's control we have no reliable way to judge God's influence (or lack thereof) in the universe.

 

[rojse]

Sigh... You still have not shown any difference between God and gravity.

Here, let me help. First, in order to show a difference between two things you must have some evidence of at least one aspect of each of those things, then you compare and contrast them.

That is a lot more helpful, seeing as though you were unclear about your original criteria.

Probably the single biggest difference is that scientists have defined what you need to build to be able to detect a gravity wave - the location of the device, the materials and setup required. We have one built now. Although it will take a long time to actually detect a wave (they have quite a long wavelength, so there is a low probability it will hit in the right manner) it has been built, and will be able to detect these waves.

No one religious, scientific, or otherwise, has tried to define what you need to detect the presence God, so that anyone that wishes to can construct this device, and go about "detecting" God. There are no blueprints, no plans, not even any ideas on how to do this, let alone attempt this.

I'd call that a pretty stark difference between gravity and God - one has a defined method of measuring it's presence that anyone can construct, the other does not.

Since you have NO evidence of God you can't define a difference. Also, your evidence of gravity is slim at best. You don't know what exactly it is (particle-graviton or wave energy?) and you don't know where it comes from. You think gravity comes from matter but it might just be like heat and light, they often travel together but they don't cause each other, they each still need a source.

Firstly, it is not me that wishes to detect God. I don't think God exists, so how can I define him, let alone attempt to detect him? If you want him to be detected by anyone, it is your job to come up with the equipment and materials required.

The evidence of gravity, or an effect that acts exactly as we understand gravity, are all around us. The way objects move when thrown, or when they are on the ground are all explained by gravity. That is hardly slim evidence.

Although I cannot explain how it comes about scientifically, (you raise a good point there) I do not pretend to, either. I can tell you many other things about gravity, though, such as how the gravity between two objects is modelled, the effects it has on other bodies, and how it affects many other things, such as, for example, creating surface tension on a liquid.

It more than adequately explains quite a lot of everyday phenomena.

So, basically you are trying to assert that one thing you know nothing at all about is somehow different from something else you know almost nothing about.

As I have said, I know quite a lot about gravity, just not it's origin. I can explain how it affects a lot of real-world objects, for example, such as water, two different solids, and so forth.

If God created it all is a pretty big if? No more than saying that somehow the universe happened on it's own without direction.

I don't pretend to know how the universe was created, but I certainly do not pretend that I have an answer, called God, which really does not add to any explanation.

Changing the "the universe started on it's own, without direction" to "the universe started under the direction of God" does not explain anything. There is no answer to the mechanics used to start this process, for example. You certainly add the question of how God came about, why he done it, and so forth.

 

[Quath]

My only statement, and I don't know if it has been said before, is that Everything we see in the universe is under God's influence. We have never seen the universe without God's control. Therefor we have nothing to compare it with. So the universe under Gods control looks like what many would assume to be the universe without God's control. But until until we see the universe without God's control we have no reliable way to judge God's influence (or lack thereof) in the universe.

If you just claim that God is unintelligent, then you have God and the Universe pretty much being the same thing. So why assume an intelligent deity? We would need some kind of proof of that.

 

[Sola'lor]

If you just claim that God is unintelligent, then you have God and the Universe pretty much being the same thing. So why assume an intelligent deity? We would need some kind of proof of that.

Because God could not be God if He was unintelligent. So If there is a God then He MUST be intelligent. This leaves only two possibilities. 'Nature,' meaning spill all the atoms out there into the universe and see let them do their own thing. Or, God(intelligent) and external controlling force that organizes the universes atoms for specific functions.

We obviously exist in one of these two states. Until we see the other state we have no measurable way to tell which state we are in.

 

[Rioku]

To be honest Rioku, you are doing a salsa and ballroom bance around the question. You were asked a question. A Q is normally replied by a ANSWER.

:sorry1: I never took salsa or ballroom dancing, but I was not answering or asking anything I was just fixing the questions that you mistyped. Anyone who has half a brain knows that you can not prove something false unless there is evidence for it in the first place. So that is why I was fixing it for you, because I know you are smarter then that.

 

[Rioku]

If you have no evidence for God, that does not mean there is no God, it just means you don't have any evidence for Him.

You are smart, I am so glad there are people like you in the word. Now if you could only take it one step further and recognize how ludicrous it is to waist your life away on something there is no evidence for.

 

[Sola'lor]

You are smart, I am so glad there are people like you in the word. Now if you could only take it one step further and recognize how ludicrous it is to waist your life away on something there is no evidence for.

I do have evidence. I've had prayers answered, recieved blessings, and other personal experiences. That's enough evidence to prove to me the God exists. But my experiences wont mean anything to someone else because they are my experiences.

 

[Francine]

I do have evidence. I've had prayers answered, recieved blessings, and other personal experiences. That's enough evidence to prove to me the God exists. But my experiences wont mean anything to someone else because they are my experiences.

Why is it important to you that people accept the validity of your interior experiences?

 

[Rioku]

Sigh... You still have not shown any difference between God and gravity.

Here, let me help. First, in order to show a difference between two things you must have some evidence of at least one aspect of each of those things, then you compare and contrast them.

Since you have NO evidence of God you can't define a difference.

I again could not agree more. in addition to what Super says you can not show any difference between God and anything because there is no definition of what God is. So the lack of definition and the lack of evidence makes God impossible to compare to anything.

But more importantly why would you try to compare anything to something that has no definition or evidence. Leave that to the people who go to worship something that there is no evidence for. The more time they waist worshiping the more time everyone else has to improve themselves.

 

[Rioku]

My only statement, and I don't know if it has been said before, is that Everything we see in the universe is under God's influence. We have never seen the universe without God's control. Therefor we have nothing to compare it with. So the universe under Gods control looks like what many would assume to be the universe without God's control. But until until we see the universe without God's control we have no reliable way to judge God's influence (or lack thereof) in the universe.

Nice try I like your attempt. Because there is no God we already know what it is like to be without gods influence. So all we have to do is compare it to the stories in the bible and we have our conclusion.

 

[Sola'lor]

Nice try I like your attempt. Because there is no God we already know what it is like to be without gods influence. So all we have to do is compare it to the stories in the bible and we have our conclusion.

Compare it to the stories in the Bible? But the Bible takes place in our universe. So whatever condition our universe is in the conditions in the Bible are the same. For example, we can't prove whether God organized the planets or they came to be by themselves because we have only seen it one way. We have no means of comparing it. If we can't compare we can't measure.

 

[Sola'lor]

Why is it important to you that people accept the validity of your interior experiences?

No I was mearly stating that my experiences don't, nor should they, provide enough evidence for someone else.

 

[Super Universe]

[/size]

That is a lot more helpful, seeing as though you were unclear about your original criteria.

Probably the single biggest difference is that scientists have defined what you need to build to be able to detect a gravity wave - the location of the device, the materials and setup required. We have one built now. Although it will take a long time to actually detect a wave (they have quite a long wavelength, so there is a low probability it will hit in the right manner) it has been built, and will be able to detect these waves.

No one religious, scientific, or otherwise, has tried to define what you need to detect the presence God, so that anyone that wishes to can construct this device, and go about "detecting" God. There are no blueprints, no plans, not even any ideas on how to do this, let alone attempt this.

I'd call that a pretty stark difference between gravity and God - one has a defined method of measuring it's presence that anyone can construct, the other does not.



Firstly, it is not me that wishes to detect God. I don't think God exists, so how can I define him, let alone attempt to detect him? If you want him to be detected by anyone, it is your job to come up with the equipment and materials required.

The evidence of gravity, or an effect that acts exactly as we understand gravity, are all around us. The way objects move when thrown, or when they are on the ground are all explained by gravity. That is hardly slim evidence.

Although I cannot explain how it comes about scientifically, (you raise a good point there) I do not pretend to, either. I can tell you many other things about gravity, though, such as how the gravity between two objects is modelled, the effects it has on other bodies, and how it affects many other things, such as, for example, creating surface tension on a liquid.

It more than adequately explains quite a lot of everyday phenomena.



As I have said, I know quite a lot about gravity, just not it's origin. I can explain how it affects a lot of real-world objects, for example, such as water, two different solids, and so forth.



I don't pretend to know how the universe was created, but I certainly do not pretend that I have an answer, called God, which really does not add to any explanation.

Changing the "the universe started on it's own, without direction" to "the universe started under the direction of God" does not explain anything. There is no answer to the mechanics used to start this process, for example. You certainly add the question of how God came about, why he done it, and so forth.

If gravity is God, what is the difference between the two then? Since you don't know what God is, gravity could be an aspect of God. Gravity could flow from God naturally just as infrared energy naturally flows from the human body. Also, everything could be God, the universe, energy/matter, in that case, God has been studied since the beginning.

It's my job to come up with the equipment to detect God? Most already have them, they're called the five senses.

Since you are having quite a tough time understanding how illogical it is to argue that something barely knowable is different from something completely unknowable perhaps I should put it in another light, what is the difference between a small toy racecar and what I have in a box?

Just because you know some of the characteristics that the racecar exhibits does not mean that what I have inside the box is any different.

 

[Super Universe]

FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=" I never took salsa or ballroom dancing, but I was not answering or asking anything I was just fixing the questions that you mistyped. Anyone who has half a brain knows that you can not prove something false unless there is evidence for it in the first place. So that is why I was fixing it for you, because I know you are smarter then that.

Rioku, you are quite lost. Penguino isn't the one you incorrectly responded to, I was, and I simply asked a few questions. I never tried to prove something false there smarty pants.

You are smart, I am so glad there are people like you in the word. Now if you could only take it one step further and recognize how ludicrous it is to waist your life away on something there is no evidence for.

Uh, you used the wrong word here Mr. smarty pants. Waist - refers to the segment of the body between the thorax and hips. Waste - a loss

I wonder who is the one with half a brain now?