An example of why I am against prostitution

[Aquitaine]

Alceste, you're wonderful! Thank you so much for your kind concern for my feelings. I have a bit of apologizing too. I'm sorry for bringing this up publicly. I should have PMed you with my concerns, and if there's a next time, I will. Also, while I think my concerns were legitimate to some extent, I need not have gotten angry over it. I was short on sleep, and that might have had something to do with being short tempered. I've had a nap now, so be as delightfully flippant as you want, and I'll merely smile amused while still pointing out that your characterization of my position doesn't seem to exactly fit with my own notion of what I was trying to say. I like our disagreements almost as much as our agreements, because I can learn from both. And besides, your rhetoric is so creative!

 

[dust1n]

I fail to see how your lofty opinions are any more constructive than my snide comments.

I don't fail to see it all. Strange.

 

[dust1n]

Prostitution isn't the problem. Forced sex work is.

Unfortunately, there is a pretty strong correlation between the legalization of the sex trade and forced sex work, especially amongst minors.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Unfortunately, there is a pretty strong correlation between the legalization of the sex trade and forced sex work, especially amongst minors.

Does this happen where it's regulated, like in legal brothels?

 

[Alceste]

I don't think it's fair or realistic to pass blanket judgements on those who hire sex workers. Seems to be a sort of shaming. It's human to desire intimacy and some of us can't get it in other ways.

Well, one judgment I can certainly pass is that if you're buying it, it isn't intimacy. It's hiring and actor to play a role for your own personal gratification, or masturbating with the help of a very sophisticated live sex doll.

And again, I say that not to pass judgment, but because it is the truth. Intimacy involves two people talking, sharing pleasure and being emotionally vulnerable with each other. Not one person indulging in fantasy fulfillment and another who is paid to fake it. I'm not saying you shouldn't hire a prostitute, you just shouldn't imagine that you're going to get genuine intimacy out of the encounter.

 

[Revoltingest]

Unfortunately, there is a pretty strong correlation between the legalization of the sex trade and forced sex work, especially amongst minors.

How much?
Where?
When?

 

[Sunstone]

I don't think it's fair or realistic to pass blanket judgements on those who hire sex workers. Seems to be a sort of shaming. It's human to desire intimacy and some of us can't get it in other ways.

This is my concern too.

 

[Alceste]

Does this happen where it's regulated, like in legal brothels?

Actually, I think I read that most sex slaves end up in brothels. Legal brothels? I'm not sure, but when anything is legal and out in the open it's also more likely to be regulated. So I'd say your chances are better.

 

[Aquitaine]

Well, one judgment I can certainly pass is that if you're buying it, it isn't intimacy. It's hiring and actor to play a role for your own personal gratification, or masturbating with the help of a very sophisticated live sex doll.

And again, I say that not to pass judgment, but because it is the truth. Intimacy involves

two people talking, sharing pleasure and being emotionally vulnerable with each other. Not one person indulging in fantasy fulfillment and another who is paid to fake it. I'm not saying you shouldn't hire a prostitute, you just shouldn't imagine that you're going to get genuine intimacy out of the encounter.

Aye, I suppose it would be like renting actors to hang-out with you n' calling it "friendship".

There are some things money can't buy. But for everything else, there's MasterCard.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, one judgment I can certainly pass is that if you're buying it, it isn't intimacy. It's hiring and actor to play a role for your own personal gratification, or masturbating with the help of a very sophisticated live sex doll.

And again, I say that not to pass judgment, but because it is the truth. Intimacy involves two people talking, sharing pleasure and being emotionally vulnerable with each other. Not one person indulging in fantasy fulfillment and another who is paid to fake it. I'm not saying you shouldn't hire a prostitute, you just shouldn't imagine that you're going to get genuine intimacy out of the encounter.

In that case, a large proportion of sex in dating or relationships isn't "genuine intimacy" since many people are fakes, lie to each other, use each other for sex or other things, etc. I find sex work to be more "real" than a lot of so-called "real relationships" where people are manipulating each other but because they're not paying for it (directly, although they may be paying for it in other ways) we consider that to be a "real relationship". I'm sorry, but that's a crock.

Also, hiring escorts doesn't necessarily have to be about sex or primarily about sex. Some people hire them to be dates, some people hire them because they want someone to talk to, etc. There's even escort services for disabled people who otherwise wouldn't experience those things. Some people become repeat customers and form a sort of bond with the sex worker. Should they be vilified over that? Geez, sometimes you just want to be given a, more or less, guaranteed nice time and not have to worry about all the bs games that people play.

 

[Badran]

I am not passing moral judgment either, but it's still plain as day to me that your friend (and men who frequent prostitutes) does feel entitled to female company - for whatever reason he desires it - in a way you yourself (and men who do not frequent prostitutes) do not.

May be not moral judgments, but you're judging him to be an entitled sexual abuser based on unfairly fitting him within a narrow preconceived notion to justify a generalized judgment. For example:

For you, the solution to not having access to female company is going without. For your friend, the solution to not having access to female company is buying it, like a fancy chocolate bar. He inherently denies her feelings and desires in order to satisfy his own.

I already shared some aspects that go against the notion that he 'denies her feelings and desires' in order to satisfy his own.

There's a difference between viewing the scenario as unhealthy, and between pointing out that it doesn't replace real intimacy for example (though to each his own) like you're pointing out in other posts, pointing to the disturbing realities of prostitution, and so forth, which i all see as valid, and between trying to lump a john that picks up a prostitute off the street, abuses her and throws her out of the car with someone like the example i gave as both being entitled sexual abusers.

 

[Sunstone]

Aye, I suppose it would be like renting actors to hang-out with you n' calling it "friendship".

Unfortunately, there are a lot of marriages that are not much better than that, and many that are actually worse. One thing that has not been considered in this thread is where at least some johns are coming from. Some -- perhaps not even many, but some -- are probably coming from a place in their lives when they would even see mere physical intimacy with a prostitute as significantly bettering their situation.

 

[Alceste]

In that case, a large proportion of sex in dating or relationships isn't "genuine intimacy" since many people are fakes, lie to each other, use each other for sex or other things, etc. I find sex work to be more "real" than a lot of so-called "real relationships" where people are manipulating each other but because they're not paying for it (directly, although they may be paying for it in other ways) we consider that to be a "real relationship". I'm sorry, but that's a crock.

Also, hiring escorts doesn't necessarily have to be about sex or primarily about sex. Some people hire them to be dates, some people hire them because they want someone to talk to, etc. There's even escort services for disabled people who otherwise wouldn't experience those things. Some people become repeat customers and form a sort of bond with the sex worker. Should they be vilified over that? Geez, sometimes you just want to be given a, more or less, guaranteed nice time and not have to worry about all the bs games that people play.

I'm not vilifying anything. I'm just telling you the truth. If you are hiring somebody to make believe they are your friend, or your lover, or whatever else you hire them to pretend to be for you, their feelings and desires have nothing to do with it, and no interest in you beyond taking your money. It's all about you, what you want, and what you need. And that is fantasy fulfillment, not intimacy.

I think it's important for people to understand that about prostitution. Even if a john doesn't give a fiddler's fart about the prostitute's feelings, it will help him avoid getting hurt by becoming emotionally attached to a person who sincerely doesn't give a crap about him as long as she gets his money.

 

[Alceste]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of marriages that are not much better than that, and many that are actually worse. One thing that has not been considered in this thread is where at least some johns are coming from. Some -- perhaps not even many, but some -- are probably coming from a place in their lives when they would even see mere physical intimacy with a prostitute as significantly bettering their situation.

Sure, I've been in a place in my life that could have been bettered by physical intimacy with somebody. But because I don't feel entitled to have something just because I want it, I've never hired another human being to satisfy my selfish needs. I make do without.

Edit: Part of that is that I understand that it is deeply unpleasant to be penetrated by somebody you don't genuinely want to be penetrated by. If you spend a little time dwelling on the idea of the Donald Trump million dollar sodomy deal, you will probably get my meaning.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm not vilifying anything. I'm just telling you the truth. If you are hiring somebody to make believe they are your friend, or your lover, or whatever else you hire them to pretend to be for you, their feelings and desires have nothing to do with it, and no interest in you beyond taking your money. It's all about you, what you want, and what you need. And that is fantasy fulfillment, not intimacy.

I think it's important for people to understand that about prostitution. Even if a john doesn't give a fiddler's fart about the prostitute's feelings, it will help him avoid getting hurt by becoming emotionally attached to a person who sincerely doesn't give a crap about him as long as she gets his money.

I'd rather have "fake intimacy" where I know where we stand than "fake intimacy" with someone who is lying to me about where we stand. I don't care whether you personally would qualify it as "genuine" or not. It fulfills a very valid need for many of us.

 

[Alceste]

I'd rather have "fake intimacy" where I know where we stand than "fake intimacy" with someone who is lying to me about where we stand. I don't care whether you personally would qualify it as "genuine" or not. It fulfills a very valid need for many of us.

It isn't any kind of intimacy. It's fantasy fulfillment. That's what I'm trying to say. Your fantasy, not hers. If you are fine with that, awesome. Go for it.

If not, then do what the rest of us do with our own valid needs for sex (masturbate) and intimacy (spend time with your friends).

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It isn't any kind of intimacy. It's fantasy fulfillment. That's what I'm trying to say. Your fantasy, not hers. If you are fine with that, awesome. Go for it.

If not, then do what the rest of us do with our own valid needs for sex (masturbate) and intimacy (spend time with your friends).

As I said, I don't care about what you personally qualify as being intimate since that is subjective and the way you use it means that a large proportion of relationships wouldn't count.

 

[Sunstone]

Sure, I've been in a place in my life that could have been bettered by physical intimacy with somebody. But because I don't feel entitled to have something just because I want it, I've never hired another human being to satisfy my selfish needs. I make do without.

I get that some johns feel a sense of entitlement. I even get that johns who have sex with women coerced into prostitution are entitled whether they feel entitled or not.

What I don't get is why all johns must feel entitled and/or be entitled. I think there are very likely to be circumstances in which neither would be the case.

Edit: Part of that is that I understand that it is deeply unpleasant to be penetrated by somebody you don't genuinely want to be penetrated by. If you spend a little time dwelling on the idea of the Donald Trump million dollar sodomy deal, you will probably get my meaning.

Thanks! That's actually helpful in understanding a female perspective, and one that seems likely to be shared to some large extent by most of the women I've known well enough to guess or know their attitudes towards such things. And yet, I still don't think every last prostitute on earth, under every last circumstance in which prostitution occurs, necessarily feels that way about being penetrated by her john.

The conversation in this thread seems to me to have come down to the distinction between all johns are jerks and some johns are jerks. Whoopie do!

I'd prefer we discussed something else now since we've reached an impasse on that point.

 

[Sunstone]

I still think my notion of licensing johns is a damn good one.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I still think my notion of licensing johns is a damn good one.

It's a good idea.