• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

An example of why I am against prostitution

Alceste

Vagabond
And I don't get that from what Darkness said, I don't think he was judging prostitutes themselves.

No, Darkness was approaching the issue from a purely abstract, philosophical perspective that has absolutely nothing to do with actual prostitution in the real world. It's pure ivory tower stuff - it reflects the idea that we can make definitive pronouncements on how things should or should not be without ever leaving the comfort of our private library, just through the power of thinking. Not only that, but that the whole world should adapt itself to our conclusions.

Opinions crafted without reference to human experience the real world are as common as poop, and equally attractive.

That's why I make the distinction between this method of forming an opinion and the direct experience of the subject in question, or at least a bit of research, so that one's conclusions bear some relation to what actually happens in the real world.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
In a perfect world, barely anyone would choose to be a prostitute, if anyone at all.

In a perfect world, most jobs would probably go unmanned. If not for the money why would anyone choose to be a janitor, or plumber, or garbage man. Because they love being elbow deep in other people's crap and trash?

The only problem with prostitution is that it isn't more accepted as a legitimate occupation in society.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
In a perfect world, most jobs would probably go unmanned. If not for the money why would anyone choose to be a janitor, or plumber, or garbage man. Because they love being elbow deep in other people's crap and trash?

The only problem with prostitution is that it isn't more accepted as a legitimate occupation in society.

By this I'm assuming you mean it should carry with it the full allotment of workplace protections enjoyed by garbage men, plumbers and janitors? For example, the right not to have your anus torn on the job, the right not to be pressured to expose yourself to communicable diseases and the right not to be beaten up or murdered by your clients or agents?

If so, I agree!
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
No, Darkness was approaching the issue from a purely abstract, philosophical perspective that has absolutely nothing to do with actual prostitution in the real world. It's pure ivory tower stuff - it reflects the idea that we can make definitive pronouncements on how things should or should not be without ever leaving the comfort of our private library, just through the power of thinking. Not only that, but that the whole world should adapt itself to our conclusions.

Opinions crafted without reference to human experience the real world are as common as poop, and equally attractive.

That's why I make the distinction between this method of forming an opinion and the direct experience of the subject in question, or at least a bit of research, so that one's conclusions bear some relation to what actually happens in the real world.
Actually I think he had a point. People like to argue for "choice" when it comes to prostitution but choices don't exist in a vacuum. People will be willing to make all kinds of choices out of desperation.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
By this I'm assuming you mean it should carry with it the full allotment of workplace protections enjoyed by garbage men, plumbers and janitors? For example, the right not to have your anus torn on the job, the right not to be pressured to expose yourself to communicable diseases and the right not to be beaten up or murdered by your clients or agents?

If so, I agree!

Rights for prostitutes? Your sense of humor constantly has me cracked up, Alceste. Rights for prostitutes! Har har har! That's almost as rich as advocating that we spend tax dollars getting them qualified for other work! Jeebers! You're such a card!
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
In a perfect world, most jobs would probably go unmanned. If not for the money why would anyone choose to be a janitor, or plumber, or garbage man. Because they love being elbow deep in other people's crap and trash?

The only problem with prostitution is that it isn't more accepted as a legitimate occupation in society.

Those people are actually providing a necessary service. They are not laying on their backs for creepy, entitled, rapist men being sexually abused.
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
No, Darkness was approaching the issue from a purely abstract, philosophical perspective that has absolutely nothing to do with actual prostitution in the real world. It's pure ivory tower stuff - it reflects the idea that we can make definitive pronouncements on how things should or should not be without ever leaving the comfort of our private library, just through the power of thinking. Not only that, but that the whole world should adapt itself to our conclusions.

Opinions crafted without reference to human experience the real world are as common as poop, and equally attractive.

That's why I make the distinction between this method of forming an opinion and the direct experience of the subject in question, or at least a bit of research, so that one's conclusions bear some relation to what actually happens in the real world.
What makes you think I am basing all of my opinions on book-knowledge? From my experiences with a friend who worked as a pimp and as a prostitute for a time, I tend to believe that the idea of free choice is a narrative used as a psychological defense mechanism. And I reject the notion that philosophy is completely unrelated to the concrete world. It seems abundantly clear that you need a philosophical system to support your own position. In fact, there is a whole history of ideas that is behind why people in our society hold opinions similar to you — yours appears to be the predominant opinion. The difference is that I am explicit in my metaphysical presuppositions and yours are implicit. And you appear to be reifying your implicit metaphysical presuppositions and therefore assuming that they are the standard.

In a perfect world, most jobs would probably go unmanned. If not for the money why would anyone choose to be a janitor, or plumber, or garbage man. Because they love being elbow deep in other people's crap and trash?

The only problem with prostitution is that it isn't more accepted as a legitimate occupation in society.
Garbage men, janitors and plumbers have not existed for most of human history. If people are no longer economically coerced to be waiters, you know what, people will learn to cook their own food. There is no social necessity for there to be waiters, except for the fact that people can leverage their abstract universal equivalent of value (i.e. money) to get people to become waiters. I imagine that many people enjoy cooking and that even in the most egalitarian, socialist economic order people would still act as chefs. There is no reason we cannot still have restaurants where the people simply come up to the kitchen and get their food.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Actually I think he had a point. People like to argue for "choice" when it comes to prostitution but choices don't exist in a vacuum. People will be willing to make all kinds of choices out of desperation.

That is true, but describing the choices of women who turn to prostitution as "inherently disordered" based on a philosophy (Plato) that holds every form on earth is an imitation of a divine, perfect form is still nonsense, even if some of his conclusions are the same as mine. :D

Me, I believe there IS a natural order to prostitution. A history of abuse, economic desperation, a society that objectifies women while excluding them from most forms of respectable, well-paid work for low-skilled labour (construction, for example) - all of these factors combine to make prostitution inevitable. Not at all "disordered". IOW, if you beat or rape a child repeatedly and she grows up without access to counseling, then finds herself in a situation of pressing poverty (the kind where you need money NOW or you don't eat), turning to prostitution is the most natural and orderly outcome for that particular person.

IOW, there's nothing wrong with her. She's behaving exactly as any person in her circumstances would most naturally behave. If there were a Platonic ideal "prostitute" floating around in the ether, she's doing a great job of conforming to it. There's a reason we call this the oldest profession, and there's also a reason less misogynistic societies had never even heard of it before colonialism imposed patriarchal values on the whole world.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
What makes you think I am basing all of my opinions on book-knowledge? From my experiences with a friend who worked as a pimp and as a prostitute for a time, I tend to believe that the idea of free choice is a narrative used as a psychological defense mechanism. And I reject the notion that philosophy is completely unrelated to the concrete world. It seems abundantly clear that you need a philosophical system to support your own position. In fact, there is a whole history of ideas that is behind why people in our society hold opinions similar to you — yours appears to be the predominant opinion. The difference is that I am explicit in my metaphysical presuppositions and yours are implicit. And you appear to be reifying your implicit metaphysical presuppositions and therefore assuming that they are the standard.

Then perhaps you should have studied psychology instead of political philosophy. ;)
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
That is true, but describing the choices of women who turn to prostitution as "inherently disordered" based on a philosophy (Plato) that holds every form on earth is an imitation of a divine, perfect form is still nonsense, even if some of his conclusions are the same as mine. :D

Me, I believe there IS a natural order to prostitution. A history of abuse, economic desperation, a society that objectifies women while excluding them from most forms of respectable, well-paid work for low-skilled labour (construction, for example) - all of these factors combine to make prostitution inevitable. Not at all "disordered". IOW, if you beat or rape a child repeatedly and she grows up without access to counseling, then finds herself in a situation of pressing poverty (the kind where you need money NOW or you don't eat), turning to prostitution is the most natural and orderly outcome for that particular person.

IOW, there's nothing wrong with her. She's behaving exactly as any person in her circumstances would most naturally behave. If there were a Platonic ideal "prostitute" floating around in the ether, she's doing a great job of conforming to it. There's a reason we call this the oldest profession, and there's also a reason less misogynistic societies had never even heard of it before colonialism imposed patriarchal values on the whole world.

Great points!
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Here's some stuff that I hope y'all might find of interest. I wrote and published the following on the net some years ago, and most of the links are now broken, so I won't include them here, but the sources once linked to were the best I could find at the time.

Worldwide, the leading causes of women and girls entering into prostitution are most likely poverty and lack of economic opportunities compounded by a lack of education. And those factors also seem to play a role in why American women enter into prostitution:

Results of a recent study of women in Toledo involved in prostitution revealed that 81% hadn’t earned a high school diploma. Forty-eight percent, nearly half the women interviewed, had no previous work history. All of the women were eligible for welfare benefits and all came from families where their parents lived in poverty or fluctuated from poverty to working class throughout their childhood. None of the women were currently married, nor did any of the women who were parents consistently collect child support for the children they were attempting to raise. Therefore, street prostitution is largely representative of the poor, single, and less educated. With very few skills, a limited education, and minimal, if any, work experience, these women saw prostitution as a way to succeed in otherwise blocked entrances to conventional opportunities.
Yet, poverty, lack of opportunities, and lack of education are not the entire American story.

Numerous studies have found that over half of the women and girls working as prostitutes in America have a history of childhood physical and sexual abuse. In one study, for instance, 57% percent of the prostitutes interviewed reported childhood sexual abuse, by an average of three perpetrators. Thus, it seems plausible there might be a causal link between abusing a child and her later becoming a prostitute.

Other factors — such as substance abuse — also seem to play a part in why women and girls enter into prostitution in America:

Some prostitutes’ explanation for becoming involved in prostitution include “having a history of sexual abuse, having grown up without love from the significant adults in their lives, being enticed by a male of female friend or by peer pressure from a group of friends, and needing money. Those who used drugs prior to their involvement in prostitution activities mention their addiction as a major reason for trading sex for money or drugs.”
So it would seem the typical American prostitute comes from a fairly hellish background. That might go far to explain why one study found that some prostitutes — specifically, those who work in bordellos or as outcall girls — actually gain self-esteem after entering into prostitution. If you are coming from hell, a bordello might seem a good place to be. However, no studies suggest working on the street is a good place to be.

Precise statistics on how many women in America walk the streets cannot be found. The National Task Force on Prostitution suggests that over one million women have worked as prostitutes. But that figure — which is merely an estimate — includes both women who walk the streets and women who work other venues, such as massage parlors or bordellos.

To complicate matters, the percent of prostitutes who walk the streets varies from city to city. Where the police and courts have suppressed bordellos, massage parlors, outcall services, and other venues, the ratio of street walkers to all prostitutes can be as high as one in two.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Those people are actually providing a necessary service. They are not laying on their backs for creepy, entitled, rapist men being sexually abused.

In fairness to johns, that's not really what it's like at least some of the time. As is the case with many victims of childhood abuse, some turn to methods of sexual expression where they feel they have all the power and control. My friend vets her clients, gets their real name and address, tells others exactly where she's going to be, negotiates the boundaries ahead of time, yada yada yada. And on occasion, she even has fun. A couple of her clients she even describes as "nice". And because it's an impersonal transaction and she feels in control of it, she avoids triggers that tend to arise in other forms of sexual expression, for example the kind of sex where you can lose yourself and let go.

She certainly feels she is providing a necessary service - even a humanitarian one - particularly for johns who have some kind of peculiar fetish they are ashamed to bring to the attention of "good girls".

OTOH, she's also a suicidally depressed, bulimic mess and an ex heroine addict who often struggles just to get from the beginning of the day to the end, so I definitely think she'd be better off in therapy. Unfortunately, nobody pays you to go to therapy and for her, poverty is a constant, pressing concern.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I've considered getting a sex worker because I'm frustrated and tired of being alone. But I have no money, so that's out. Some guys turn to sex workers to lose their virginity to a professional or just to have a sense of intimacy and not only sexual intimacy. There's some guys who just want to talk, be held, etc. Sure, there's creeps who hire sex workers. Of course. There's creeps in general, male and female. There's messed up women who will screw you over, too. So lets not act like women are always the victim and males are necessarily sadistic brutes.
 
Last edited:

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
In fairness to johns, that's not really what it's like at least some of the time. As is the case with many victims of childhood abuse, some turn to methods of sexual expression where they feel they have all the power and control. My friend vets her clients, gets their real name and address, tells others exactly where she's going to be, negotiates the boundaries ahead of time, yada yada yada. And on occasion, she even has fun. A couple of her clients she even describes as "nice". And because it's an impersonal transaction and she feels in control of it, she avoids triggers that tend to arise in other forms of sexual expression, for example the kind of sex where you can lose yourself and let go.

She certainly feels she is providing a necessary service - even a humanitarian one - particularly for johns who have some kind of peculiar fetish they are ashamed to bring to the attention of "good girls".

OTOH, she's also a suicidally depressed, bulimic mess and an ex heroine addict who often struggles just to get from the beginning of the day to the end, so I definitely think she'd be better off in therapy. Unfortunately, nobody pays you to go to therapy and for her, poverty is a constant, pressing concern.
And in my opinion Johns are entitled a holes, I don't feel sympathetic towards their sexual "needs" even if some prostitutes do feel sorry for them, I don't.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I've considered getting a sex worker because I'm frustrated and tired of being alone. But I have no money, so that's out. Some guys turn to sex workers to lose their virginity to a professional or just to have a sense of intimacy and not only sexual intimacy. There's some guys who just want to talk, be held, etc.

I think you might be idealizing sex work. In real life, the positives seem much rarer events than the negatives. But if you decide to get into it, try to work in a bordello or at least, as outcall. Walking the streets seems almost universally to be avoided.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I think you might be idealizing sex work. In real life, the positives seem much rarer events than the negatives. But if you decide to get into it, try to work in a bordello or at least, as outcall. Walking the streets seems almost universally to be avoided.

I meant hiring a sex worker, not being one. I'm not interested in street walkers.

Although, being a sex worker is a fun fantasy, I would not be in demand except to tranny chasers.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Here's some stuff that I hope y'all might find of interest. I wrote and published the following on the net some years ago, and most of the links are now broken, so I won't include them here, but the sources once linked to were the best I could find at the time.

Worldwide, the leading causes of women and girls entering into prostitution are most likely poverty and lack of economic opportunities compounded by a lack of education. And those factors also seem to play a role in why American women enter into prostitution:
Results of a recent study of women in Toledo involved in prostitution revealed that 81% hadn’t earned a high school diploma. Forty-eight percent, nearly half the women interviewed, had no previous work history. All of the women were eligible for welfare benefits and all came from families where their parents lived in poverty or fluctuated from poverty to working class throughout their childhood. None of the women were currently married, nor did any of the women who were parents consistently collect child support for the children they were attempting to raise. Therefore, street prostitution is largely representative of the poor, single, and less educated. With very few skills, a limited education, and minimal, if any, work experience, these women saw prostitution as a way to succeed in otherwise blocked entrances to conventional opportunities.
Yet, poverty, lack of opportunities, and lack of education are not the entire American story.

Numerous studies have found that over half of the women and girls working as prostitutes in America have a history of childhood physical and sexual abuse. In one study, for instance, 57% percent of the prostitutes interviewed reported childhood sexual abuse, by an average of three perpetrators. Thus, it seems plausible there might be a causal link between abusing a child and her later becoming a prostitute.

Other factors — such as substance abuse — also seem to play a part in why women and girls enter into prostitution in America:
Some prostitutes’ explanation for becoming involved in prostitution include “having a history of sexual abuse, having grown up without love from the significant adults in their lives, being enticed by a male of female friend or by peer pressure from a group of friends, and needing money. Those who used drugs prior to their involvement in prostitution activities mention their addiction as a major reason for trading sex for money or drugs.”
So it would seem the typical American prostitute comes from a fairly hellish background. That might go far to explain why one study found that some prostitutes — specifically, those who work in bordellos or as outcall girls — actually gain self-esteem after entering into prostitution. If you are coming from hell, a bordello might seem a good place to be. However, no studies suggest working on the street is a good place to be.

Precise statistics on how many women in America walk the streets cannot be found. The National Task Force on Prostitution suggests that over one million women have worked as prostitutes. But that figure — which is merely an estimate — includes both women who walk the streets and women who work other venues, such as massage parlors or bordellos.

To complicate matters, the percent of prostitutes who walk the streets varies from city to city. Where the police and courts have suppressed bordellos, massage parlors, outcall services, and other venues, the ratio of street walkers to all prostitutes can be as high as one in two.

Sounds about right. Middle class prostitutes don't tend to end up on the street. My friend, for example, operates through the internet, and the back of the local free paper is full of ads for independent escorts.

The streets are hell. That's where you meet the Robert Picktons of the world.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
And in my opinion Johns are entitled a holes, I don't feel sympathetic towards their sexual "needs" even if some prostitutes do feel sorry for them, I don't.

I don't either. But my prostitute friend does, due to her background, and I'm pretty sure her feelings on the subject are just as valid as mine. I'm not sure there can be an objective measure of how much of an entitled ******* somebody is. Also, if I know any johns personally nobody has let me in on the secret, so I only have my friend's assessment of their character to go by.
 
Top