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An interesting view of Atheism

rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Spiny Norman said:
It seems a little muddled to me. The message seems to be that theists should pretend to be an atheist when they want to help somebody practically?
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I saw it more saying that one should be driven (on questions of interpersonal morality) by an integrated sense of right and wrong (which, yes, it assumes to be hardwired and universally accepted) and not by the statement "I'm doing it because God told me to." In Judaism, there are certain things that we are supposed to do for exactly the opposite reason. When there is an inscrutable law, we aren't supposed to try and find moral reasons for it, but say we are doing it because God said to. So this story is a big innovation, reminding us that that "hiding behind God" is not the prime mode of behavior in all cases.
 
Unbound Origin

Unbound Origin

Luciferian
rosends said:
I wasn't sure where to post this, so I hope it fits here. I haven't investigated the source of this but someone I know has (his research is appended after the story). I also don't know if this has appeared in any other threads.

I think that the attitude in this is fascinating, and not in a bad way, but I wonder if it strikes anyone as problematic.
---------------

There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.

One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”

The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs and act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that god commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.”

“This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say 'I will help you.’”
-----------------

Source: Chassidic stories are typically transmitted orally, and at times you'll find the same story attributed to different sources. The classic collection Tales of the Hasidim Volume 2 by Martin Buber (Schocken Press, 1958) has a condensed version of this story (titled "When is it good to deny the existence of God") attributed to Rabbi Moshe Leib of Sasov, the late 18th century student of Rabbi Shmelke of Nikolsburg and teacher of Rabbi Mendel of Kosov. The version above is based on my memory hearing this story many times in my youth.
Click to expand...

Another way of looking at this is that in order for charitable acts to take place, a God is not required. In fact a God isn't required any more than a God is required for a misanthropic act. The reason that an atheist, like me, would believe this is because ultimately such acts are the responsibility of the individual, and not an external God. Shifting responsibility onto an external God is either denying your own humanity on one level or downright dangerous on the other. God told me to do it.

The Gods and Goddesses I believe were created by us, in man's image and not the other way around; what the psychologist Carl Jung described as archetypes. Their purpose was to emulate a kind of superman, a superman that Nietschze referred to. The Gods were ideals, reflective entirely of the full range of human behaviour but not externalised as such. Inasmuch as worship is concerned, they were worshipped as the ideals they stood for, as reflections of ourselves.

I am my own god.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Unbound Origin said:
Another way of looking at this is that in order for charitable acts to take place, a God is not required. In fact a God isn't required any more than a God is required for a misanthropic act. The reason that an atheist, like me, would believe this is because ultimately such acts are the responsibility of the individual, and not an external God. Shifting responsibility onto an external God is either denying your own humanity on one level or downright dangerous on the other. God told me to do it.

The Gods and Goddesses I believe were created by us, in man's image and not the other way around; what the psychologist Carl Jung described as archetypes. Their purpose was to emulate a kind of superman, a superman that Nietschze referred to. The Gods were ideals, reflective entirely of the full range of human behaviour but not externalised as such. Inasmuch as worship is concerned, they were worshipped as the ideals they stood for, as reflections of ourselves.

I am my own god.
Click to expand...
Would you subscribe to the advice, "be what you envsion the best version of what god could be"?
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
rosends said:
I wasn't sure where to post this, so I hope it fits here. I haven't investigated the source of this but someone I know has (his research is appended after the story). I also don't know if this has appeared in any other threads.

I think that the attitude in this is fascinating, and not in a bad way, but I wonder if it strikes anyone as problematic.
---------------

There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.

One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”

The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs and act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that god commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.”

“This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say 'I will help you.’”
-----------------

Source: Chassidic stories are typically transmitted orally, and at times you'll find the same story attributed to different sources. The classic collection Tales of the Hasidim Volume 2 by Martin Buber (Schocken Press, 1958) has a condensed version of this story (titled "When is it good to deny the existence of God") attributed to Rabbi Moshe Leib of Sasov, the late 18th century student of Rabbi Shmelke of Nikolsburg and teacher of Rabbi Mendel of Kosov. The version above is based on my memory hearing this story many times in my youth.
Click to expand...

I'd heard this Chassidic bit of sage wisdom before--or we could just go with the classic view--that atheists are angry, bitter people who stand condemned. Still, wisdom is wisdom.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
jonathan180iq said:
If more religious people would act this way, I don't think we atheists would have much to complain about.
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I think that there is much to be said for the belief that "do your thing but leave me alone to do mine" as long as "mine" doesn't infringe on your existence and vice versa.
 
R

RCD1950

New Member
rosends said:
I wasn't sure where to post this, so I hope it fits here. I haven't investigated the source of this but someone I know has (his research is appended after the story). I also don't know if this has appeared in any other threads.

I think that the attitude in this is fascinating, and not in a bad way, but I wonder if it strikes anyone as problematic.
---------------

There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.

One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”

The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs and act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that god commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.”

“This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say 'I will help you.’”
-----------------

Source: Chassidic stories are typically transmitted orally, and at times you'll find the same story attributed to different sources. The classic collection Tales of the Hasidim Volume 2 by Martin Buber (Schocken Press, 1958) has a condensed version of this story (titled "When is it good to deny the existence of God") attributed to Rabbi Moshe Leib of Sasov, the late 18th century student of Rabbi Shmelke of Nikolsburg and teacher of Rabbi Mendel of Kosov. The version above is based on my memory hearing this story many times in my youth.
Click to expand...


I would like to believe that most acts of love are performed outside of any hope for either reward or punishment. The Good Book says "let not the right hand know what the left is doing"; I interpret that a meaning to stay focused on the object of one's love...as opposed to any karmic dynamics.

Being either Atheist or Agnostic doesn't preclude one's ability to love, or even the innate value of their soul and action; it just removes the disbeliever's belief that one's self, and love, can and will endure beyond this temporal life. An Atheist or Agnostic simply lives without the psychological comfort of Belief. And of course (per Quantum research), if subjectivity directly affects the Empirical evidence and reality (as such research indicated)...then perception may well be reality. That is big! If that is the universal axiom, then subjective Faith/Belief then becomes the arbiter of our own Reality. Can't blame God if we choose - for whatever reason - not to believe (in God), and therein nullify/invalidate such an option as our personal Reality. That subjective axiom, is the only fair way this thing could shake out anyway. Lest God be found imperfect.
 
Unbound Origin

Unbound Origin

Luciferian
rosends said:
Would you subscribe to the advice, "be what you envsion the best version of what god could be"?
Click to expand...

More like, be what I envision the best version of me could be. The archetypal Gods, in the ancient world at least, reflected what was best in whatever arena of human endeavour in which they excelled, brought to life essentially through story and myth, but ultimately created by ourselves (and usually designed with similar faults).
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Unbound Origin said:
More like, be what I envision the best version of me could be. The archetypal Gods, in the ancient world at least, reflected what was best in whatever arena of human endeavour in which they excelled, brought to life essentially through story and myth, but ultimately created by ourselves (and usually designed with similar faults).
Click to expand...
Can you envision a "you" without faults?
 
viole

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
BilliardsBall said:
I'd heard this Chassidic bit of sage wisdom before--or we could just go with the classic view--that atheists are angry, bitter people who stand condemned. Still, wisdom is wisdom.
Click to expand...

Did you really feel the need to ruin a sensible post about morality with your (angry and bitter) atheistophobia? Do you really think we are worried about being condemned? From our vantage point, it would be like being worried of not getting any presents from Santa next Christmas. Independently from us being right or wrong.

On a more serious note, May I ask if Jews stand condemned too? Remember, they do not buy your Messiah for a second, in general.

By the way, do you really believe we are angry and bitter? We love you, .... not necessarily your belief :)

Ciao

- viole
 
Windwalker

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
BilliardsBall said:
I'd heard this Chassidic bit of sage wisdom before--or we could just go with the classic view--that atheists are angry, bitter people who stand condemned. Still, wisdom is wisdom.
Click to expand...
Why would we just go with the classic view? Have you never considered that those atheists who are angry at religion are so for a good reason? If you haven't, then wisdom is not possible.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
viole said:
Did you really feel the need to ruin a sensible post about morality with your (angry and bitter) atheistophobia? Do you really think we are worried about being condemned? From our vantage point, it would be like being worried of not getting any presents from Santa next Christmas. Independently from us being right or wrong.

On a more serious note, May I ask if Jews stand condemned too? Remember, they do not buy your Messiah for a second, in general.

By the way, do you really believe we are angry and bitter? We love you, .... not necessarily your belief :)

Ciao

- viole
Click to expand...

Your love shows via dozens of insensitive, rude and passive-aggressive posts. You don't even bother to remember that I AM A JEW. Am I condemned? No, thank Y'shua.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Windwalker said:
Why would we just go with the classic view? Have you never considered that those atheists who are angry at religion are so for a good reason? If you haven't, then wisdom is not possible.
Click to expand...

If you don't like religion, don't practice it. Only bitter, angry people remain angered at something they are NOT doing that they believe is UNREAL.
 
Aset's Flames

Aset's Flames

Viperine Asetian
BilliardsBall said:
If you don't like religion, don't practice it. Only bitter, angry people remain angered at something they are NOT doing that they believe is UNREAL.
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I remain enraged that people will kill themselves and others for their psudeo-Islam. Becuase it is not real, I am also disturbed that other religions often brainwash children.

Perhaps I just care about others and that is why I care.

Honestly if you do not care about other people your lives will be a lot easier but not as meaningful to me.
 
Windwalker

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
BilliardsBall said:
If you don't like religion, don't practice it. Only bitter, angry people remain angered at something they are NOT doing that they believe is UNREAL.
Click to expand...
You don't believe or accept that they have been victims of religion in some way, shape, or form that has caused them to be angry? Not being part of it anymore doesn't mean you aren't allowed to be pissed of at it for what they did, and continue to do to others.
 
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