An Issue Of Valuing The Lives Of Others

[Estro Felino]

That is literally the opposite of how it works. The more impoverished a nation or region is, the higher the birth rate and infant mortality rate are.
The poorest nations on earth, have the highest birth rates and infant mortality rates.

Ukraine and Moldova are not that wealthy...quite the opposite....and I can promise you their birth rates are disastrous. Very low.

That said... I think that the UN invested lots of money on Palestinian territories, so they can prosper.
But we are speaking of incredibly tiny territories with finite resources.

 

[Little Dragon]

In the news, our leaders express concern for Israelis
killed & kidnapped, but are largely silent regarding
the far greater number of Palestinians killed by
Israel's massive bombing campaign, & embargo
on water, energy, & freedom to move.

They're representatives of allied nations, what did you expect? This is a core strategic alliance on this planet...

 

[Little Dragon]

Ukraine and Moldova are not that wealthy...quite the opposite....and I can promise you their birth rates are disastrous. Very low.

Yeah the're is a war going on. Honestly...

 

[SkepticThinker]

Absolutely Israel's actions are a part of the context. But - as one example - the claim that Palestinians are noncombatants seems like a stretch to me, they voted for Hamas to lead them and Hamas was very clear on its agenda.

Let me ask you this - why hasn't the world gone after Hamas the way they went after ISIS? That question is part of the context.

The median age in Palestine is 19.6 years old. Children make up almost half the population. The last election was 18 years ago. Hamas received 44.45 of the vote in that election. Most of the people alive today did not vote for Hamas.


I pointed this out to you just a few days ago.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It simply doesn't add up.

Because I have never seen them in the last years complaining about being "victims of Hamas".

Considering that if they had been victims of terrorism and fundamentalism, they could have asked the UN for political asylum in the West or in any other Arabic-speaking country.

Honestly I consider all this narrative not that reliable.


For the same reason why the US rolls red carpets at the fundamentalist countries of the Gulf.

I work with a Palestinian refugee here in Canada. He's currently trying to get his aunt out of Palestine.

 

[We Never Know]

In the news, our leaders express concern for Israelis
killed & kidnapped, but are largely silent regarding
the far greater number of Palestinians killed by
Israel's massive bombing campaign, & embargo
on water, energy, & freedom to move...killing &
maiming thousands of non-combatants whose
only crime is being where Israel keeps them.

Democrats' divisions on Israel-Hamas war boil over in Michigan as Detroit-area Muslims feel betrayed

Many top Michigan Democrats, including Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, took part in a huge pro-Israel rally near Detroit after Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on the country.

apnews.com

In USA there are sanctions imposed on people
who show support for Palestinians. Israel's
sway over Christians is creating a deadly new
McCarthyism.

After Writing an Anti-Israel Letter, Harvard Students Are Doxxed

A truck with a billboard displayed their names and photos, and critics put out do-not-hire lists. The students say it’s a campaign to shut them up.

www.nytimes.com

Battle against hate: Violence, bigotry toward Palestinian Americans spiking across US

Palestinian and Muslim Americans say discrimination against their communities has risen since the start of the Israel-Hamas war.

www.usatoday.com

The Mounting Onslaught of Censorship and Suppression

"A failure to stop this new McCarthyism would be to surrender to the forces of reaction that tragically are carrying the day."

inthesetimes.com

We should not tolerate the evil of state terrorism,
even when committed by a nominal ally. USA's
voters & leaders must reckon with their subversion
of their own values.

Disclaimer...
This post is about general trends in groups,
not about every single individual, who might
differ from their tribe.

Killing of innocents on either side isn't acceptable but wars do have casualties not limited to the combatants.

One of those times when a picture is worth a thousand words....

 

[Revoltingest]

such a stilted summary of the situation

Really?

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I find that rather flattering, given how emotionally charged
my theme is. And I thought I was being rather blunt.
So "stiffly formal" or "pompous" is a better reception than I expected.

 

[Revoltingest]

They're representatives of allied nations, what did you expect? This is a core strategic alliance on this planet...

Strategic alliances generally have foundations
in common religions, values, cultures, & needs.
So alliances are a choice. And I oppose some
of USA's choices.

 

[Revoltingest]

Killing of innocents on either side isn't acceptable but wars do have casualties not limited to the combatants.

One of those times when a picture is worth a thousand words....

View attachment 83990

Your picture doesn't represent the relative injury & death tolls.
Nor does it address Israel's oppression of Palestinians, which
is the primary source of conflict.

 

[Revoltingest]

Because, you know, the UN will help all those who desire peace.
All those who want peace, they will get it.

If they can.
Israel has other ideas.

UN organisations plead for unimpeded Gaza aid 'on our knees'

United Nations agencies called "on our knees" on Tuesday for aid to be allowed unimpeded into Gaza, saying more than 20 times current deliveries were needed to support its Palestinian population after two weeks of Israeli air strikes.

www.reuters.com

 

[Revoltingest]

Context matters, and for his perspective to be true, he must be using an overly constrained context. Let's zoom out and consider this perspective; Muslims believe that their book instructs them to conquer the lands of infidels. Hitchen explains this quite eloquently:

This broader context must be a part of the conversation. Apart from Israel, Muslims have taken over the entire ME. Members of other religions have systematically had their lands taken by Muslims.

Your argument boils down to "someone said something".
And is appears that this matters to you more than the
context of the reality of who is doing far & away most
of the killing & oppressing.

But let's assume your premise that many Muslims believe
as you say. Are you arguing that treating Muslims as
less than human, oppressing & killing innocents, is justified
by what Hitchens says?

 

[Revoltingest]

Honestly I do not endorse the choice of including "Christians" in the title.

You needn't.

So I would kindly suggest the OP to edit the title.

Not on your life.
This is what I've observed in many decades of discussing
politics with people of various religions, particularly Jews,
Christians, & Muslims. I also observe what leaders say & do.

Christians believe in a God than loves any religion.

This belief often fails to comport with their behavior.
And in this conflict, belief exacerbates hostilities (IMO).

If you are a Christian and do not like a religious group, God cannot call you a Christian.

No true Scotsman, eh.

 

[Revoltingest]

Absolutely Israel's actions are a part of the context. But - as one example - the claim that Palestinians are noncombatants seems like a stretch to me....

Then the Al jazeera correspondent, Wael Al-Dahdouh,
whose entire family Israel killed were all combatants, eh.

Let's apply your rationale in the other direction for some
reductio ad absurdum fun...
Israeli voters installed leaders who oppress Palestinians,
murder them, demolish their homes, etc, etc. Israeli
settlers do the same (stochastic terrorism). Therefore
Hamas was justified in attacking Israeli civilians because
they too are combatants.

 

[dybmh]

What is incorrect about what he said?

it is incomplete and one-sided as usual. Religious Israelis have a parade which interferes with worship at the Dome of the Rock, then, Hamas kidnaps, massacres. But no one really cares about that. Just hate the Israeli because they are the big bad wolf in a fairy tale.

 

[Little Dragon]

Strategic alliances generally have foundations
in common religions, values, cultures, & needs.
So alliances are a choice. And I oppose some
of USA's choices.

You forgot geopolitical and long term strategic expediency, which is not a choice so much, more of a risk assessment.

 

[Lyndon]

Israel terrorists kill 22 Palestinians for every one killed by Palestinian terrorists, its obvious who the real evil are

 

[InChrist]

In the news, our leaders express concern for Israelis
killed & kidnapped, but are largely silent regarding
the far greater number of Palestinians killed by
Israel's massive bombing campaign, & embargo
on water, energy, & freedom to move...killing &
maiming thousands of non-combatants whose
only crime is being where Israel keeps them.

Democrats' divisions on Israel-Hamas war boil over in Michigan as Detroit-area Muslims feel betrayed

Many top Michigan Democrats, including Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, took part in a huge pro-Israel rally near Detroit after Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on the country.

apnews.com

In USA there are sanctions imposed on people
who show support for Palestinians. Israel's
sway over Christians is creating a deadly new
McCarthyism.

After Writing an Anti-Israel Letter, Harvard Students Are Doxxed

A truck with a billboard displayed their names and photos, and critics put out do-not-hire lists. The students say it’s a campaign to shut them up.

www.nytimes.com

Battle against hate: Violence, bigotry toward Palestinian Americans spiking across US

Palestinian and Muslim Americans say discrimination against their communities has risen since the start of the Israel-Hamas war.

www.usatoday.com

The Mounting Onslaught of Censorship and Suppression

"A failure to stop this new McCarthyism would be to surrender to the forces of reaction that tragically are carrying the day."

inthesetimes.com

We should not tolerate the evil of state terrorism,
even when committed by a nominal ally. USA's
voters & leaders must reckon with their subversion
of their own values.

Disclaimer...
This post is about general trends in groups,
not about every single individual, who might
differ from their tribe.

Maybe the news and our leaders at this point are siding with Israel because it was the innocent people of Israel who were viciously attacked by Palestinian terrorists. Israel does not do that.
But I don’t think you have too much to worry about. I’ve been seeing reports and videos everyday of pro-Palestine protests, some becoming violent, some blocking roads and traffic, with instances of harassing random drivers, and threatening Jewish students on college campuses.

It’s interesting that the Palestinians in Gaza hold the elite position of victimhood. No matter that they have initiated decades of terror attacks against Israel, no matter how many Israeli civilians they have killed at restaurants, parks, theaters, on buses, or elsewhere - their victimhood defines them and that status is retained. There have been millions of genocide victims in Africa, millions of oppressed slaves in China, and millions of refugees in Syria. Millions of other Palestinians live in much worse conditions in Jordan and Lebanon, but no one seems as concerned about them. None of these groups of victims have been able to dislodge the Palestinians in Gaza from the top place of victimhood.
Why?
Oh…that’s right, none of those other groups of real victims involve the Jews, those recipients of the world’s most ancient hatred.

Then came October 7 and the horrific brutalities against non-combatant, Israeli men, women, and children done in the name of Palestinians. The shock of such a barbaric atrocities threatened to dethrone the Palestinian cause itself. So what’s to be done to save the world’s most popular victims? I guess what has been done for centuries, which always works - change the subject; blame the Jews/Israel.

 

[icehorse]

Unless Israel reformed its policies, the same conditions that helped give rise to Hamas would almost surely give rise to another radical group. Using brute force that kills disproportionate numbers of civilians and overlooking the need for reform have been ineffective strategies time and time again, with disastrous humanitarian costs every time.

Again, this sounds like a very careful slicing and dicing of history and context. So - for example - what historical time range are you using to come to these conclusions? What if you started your time line at at different place?

Showing initiative to enact reform and stop encroachment on Palestinian territories (e.g., by not building illegal settlements in the West Bank) would be a start.

Unilaterally giving up Gaza didn't seem to pay off for Israel.

It sounds like your perspective is that "if only" Israel acted differently, everything would be fine. And that Hamas and Palestinians are purely reacting. Again, I think you have to do some real historical editing and tap dancing to make those views stick.

Except that the US destroyed Afghanistan and Iraq and Netanyahu's government is now destroying Gaza after years of keeping it an open-air prison. At some point, actions speak just as loudly as charters do.

You just switched the goalposts. When Bush was running for office, he did not run on a "if terrorists attack us, I'll start a war" platform.

 

[icehorse]

Israel terrorists kill 22 Palestinians for every one killed by Palestinian terrorists, its obvious who the real evil are

So do you think that when a country gets attacked they should restrict themselves to "proportional" counter actions? It seems to me that policy would just lead to more wars.

 

[Orbit]

Maybe the news and our leaders at this point are siding with Israel because it was the innocent people of Israel who were viciously attacked by Palestinian terrorists. Israel does not do that.
But I don’t think you have too much to worry about. I’ve been seeing reports and videos everyday of pro-Palestine protests, some becoming violent, some blocking roads and traffic, with instances of harassing random drivers, and threatening Jewish students on college campuses.

It’s interesting that the Palestinians in Gaza hold the elite position of victimhood. No matter that they have initiated decades of terror attacks against Israel, no matter how many Israeli civilians they have killed at restaurants, parks, theaters, on buses, or elsewhere - their victimhood defines them and that status is retained. There have been millions of genocide victims in Africa, millions of oppressed slaves in China, and millions of refugees in Syria. Millions of other Palestinians live in much worse conditions in Jordan and Lebanon, but no one seems as concerned about them. None of these groups of victims have been able to dislodge the Palestinians in Gaza from the top place of victimhood.
Why?
Oh…that’s right, none of those other groups of real victims involve the Jews, those recipients of the world’s most ancient hatred.

Then came October 7 and the horrific brutalities against non-combatant, Israeli men, women, and children done in the name of Palestinians. The shock of such a barbaric atrocities threatened to dethrone the Palestinian cause itself. So what’s to be done to save the world’s most popular victims? I guess what has been done for centuries, which always works - change the subject; blame the Jews/Israel.

Two wrongs don’t make a right.