An Issue Of Valuing The Lives Of Others

[Revoltingest]

Christian (largely) countries in Europe
vs Muslim (sort of) Turkey....
Which advocates for Palestinian rights,
& which support Israel's massacre?

Turkey's Gaza fury deepens splits with EU

As Turkey's relations with the European Union come under strain over its democratic standards, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's outspoken pro-Palestinian stance on the war between Israel and Hamas is…

www.france24.com

Erdogan can recognize war crimes?
Why can't (most) Christians?

 

[Revoltingest]

This retraction wouldn't have happened
before Israel's war crimes in Gaza. That
big Semitic nose on a Hamas bespeaks
bigotry towards "those people".

MSN

Excerpted....
New Delhi: Weeks after The Guardian sacked a long-serving cartoonist over a cartoon of Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu, another cartoon published by a Western newspaper has sparked a fresh controversy, prompting an apology from its Opinion Editor.
On Thursday morning, The Washington Post withdrew a cartoon, titled “Human Shields”, which depicted four children strapped to the body of a man in a suit, and a woman cowering behind him. Above the man, whose suit carries the label “HAMAS”, was a word balloon that read: “How dare Israel attack civilians…”



I wonder if the cartoonist was planning a
counterpart, ie, a big nosed Jew saying....
"Oh, goodie! Human shields.
We can kill 10 birds with one stone!"

 

[Revoltingest]

This isn't statistically significant.
A Jew is surveying other Jews about
equality to non-Jews. It's short.
For those interested in a small slice
of Jewish culture.....

One comment is striking....

@rc59191​

2 weeks ago
There was a time that I was gonna convert to Judaism just so I could fight for Israel after I finished my time as an Airman. I even raised money for wounded Israeli Soldiers. But then I saw that video of Israeli settlers throwing rocks at little girls going to school while the IDF Soldiers that were supposed to be protecting them just stood there and watched. Basically shattered my world view and did more and more research into what was really happening over there I felt ashamed. The Orthodox and ultra Orthodox people I've met over the year's are no different than any white or black supremacist group. Only difference is when you call them out they will scream antisemite, make it their mission to destory your life and any credibility you might have while hiding behind the Holocaust.

 

[Revoltingest]

USA & Israel have some fundamentally different values.
Here, if a cop kills a fleeing suspect who is posing no
danger, they'll be prosecuted (more & more these days).
In Israel, policy is to shoot fleeing suspects, even they
pose no threat.....but at Palestinians, not Jews.

IDF begins allowing troops to shoot at fleeing rock-throwers

Military says soldiers are still directed to first try to make an arrest without using deadly force, but experts raise questions about legality of new guideline

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Rubbish. One could say this about almost any war then.

No, they can't. There is a distinct difference between civilian deaths as a result of collateral damage in war and civilian deaths that are a result of blockading and shelling a densely populated civilian area in violation of international law and human rights. War crimes can happen even if there's a war going on. That's what literally DEFINES them.

And you haven't obviously.

No, I have! That's the point! YOU are the one saying you're NOT making moral judgement when you are!

Why are you so unable to keep track of the very points we're arguing? It shouldn't be my job to keep track of your positions.

Well we all are selective. Some see Israel as the big bad ogre, for example.

Some of us are just willing to call war crimes war crimes. Others less so.

Well I don't know of another way to defeat those who use such tactics, given that doing so just encourages others.

Then you're not bothering to try, and are quick to justify killing civilians.

You might like to look at this:

War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And?

So Hamas are guilty from the start.

When have I ever argued that they aren't or weren't?

Your brain still hasn't come up with any sensible alternative though.

I'm not a military general in charge of one of the world's most heavily funded armies. It's not my responsibility to plan operations that limit civilian casualties. That's Israel's.

Do you seriously believe that Israel's ONLY OPTION other than not reacting at all was to do war crimes?

As above, please tell as to a solution.

Not doing war crimes.

And as above.

War crimes. Not doing them.

I don't if I recognise what the aims of Israel appear to be - the destruction of Hamas - and such either takes place quickly or more slowly, with the latter perhaps involving more deaths.

Their aim is the destruction of Palestinian civilians, as evidenced by their ongoing genocide. In any case, you cannot justify war crimes by claiming the civilians were just "in the way of our rockets intended for Hamas". That's not how moral culpability works.

Yes, they ran out of ammo or their blood lust passed.

Israel are currently engaged in killing civilians. To date, Israel have killed more than twice the number of CHILDREN ALONE in Gaza that Hamas killed in Israel.

You don't think this is a war crime. Do you believe those children deserved it?

Same as to Hamas and all others. What a shame that Hamas was founded on this principle.

You can't use previous war crimes to justify further war crimes. According to that logic, Hamas was justified.

 

[Mock Turtle]

No, they can't. There is a distinct difference between civilian deaths as a result of collateral damage in war and civilian deaths that are a result of blockading and shelling a densely populated civilian area in violation of international law and human rights. War crimes can happen even if there's a war going on. That's what literally DEFINES them.


No, I have! That's the point! YOU are the one saying you're NOT making moral judgement when you are!

Why are you so unable to keep track of the very points we're arguing? It shouldn't be my job to keep track of your positions.


Some of us are just willing to call war crimes war crimes. Others less so.


Then you're not bothering to try, and are quick to justify killing civilians.


And?


When have I ever argued that they aren't or weren't?


I'm not a military general in charge of one of the world's most heavily funded armies. It's not my responsibility to plan operations that limit civilian casualties. That's Israel's.

Do you seriously believe that Israel's ONLY OPTION other than not reacting at all was to do war crimes?


Not doing war crimes.


War crimes. Not doing them.


Their aim is the destruction of Palestinian civilians, as evidenced by their ongoing genocide. In any case, you cannot justify war crimes by claiming the civilians were just "in the way of our rockets intended for Hamas". That's not how moral culpability works.


Israel are currently engaged in killing civilians. To date, Israel have killed more than twice the number of CHILDREN ALONE in Gaza that Hamas killed in Israel.

You don't think this is a war crime. Do you believe those children deserved it?


You can't use previous war crimes to justify further war crimes. According to that logic, Hamas was justified.

I think we are going around the houses with this discussion, given that you seem to be exonerating the Palestinians as towards any self-destructive behaviour - Hamas tactics, for example, and which ultimately would lead them to sorrow - whilst I am just trying to show that the horrible human losses to the civilians in Gaza, coming about from the initial Hamas attack against Israel, was inevitable and determined by the cynical, cowardly, if not detestable actions of Hamas, given that they must have known as to the outcome. We seem to disagree as to whether the casualties could be avoided but where neither of us are experts or there.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I think we are going around the houses with this discussion, given that you seem to be exonerating the Palestinians as towards any self-destructive behaviour

10,000 civilians are dead, including over 3,000 children.

Are you suggesting that it is their own fault?

- Hamas tactics, for example, and which ultimately would lead them to sorrow -

I have REPEATEDLY acknowledged how Hamas' tactics harm civilians. My position has ALWAYS BEEN that this does not justify what Israel are doing.

whilst I am just trying to show that the horrible human losses to the civilians in Gaza, coming about from the initial Hamas attack against Israel, was inevitable and determined by the cynical, cowardly, if not detestable actions of Hamas,

While absolving Israel of all blame, including for any blame that might have been a direct cause of Hamas' attack. If you argument is "What Hamas did justifies what Israel did (or exonerates them of blame)", then how can we not use the exact same logic and say the decades-long genocide of the Palestinian people and the annexing of their land means that terrorist incursions are an "INEVITABLE" consequence of Israeli foreign policy, so the fault lies with Israel?

That's identical logic. It's excusing killing civilians. How do you not see that?

given that they must have known as to the outcome.

That doesn't excuse the people who carry out the outcome. Flipping off a biker is probably a going to result in tremendous bodily harm, but that doesn't mean that the biker isn't responsible for their own actions and hasn't committed a crime. Such attitudes EXPLICITLY JUSTIFY WAR CRIMES AND GENOCIDE.

We seem to disagree as to whether the casualties could be avoided but where neither of us are experts or there.

You are constantly insisting that the war crimes are necessary and that there were no other options. That is a completely and totally indefensible position, expertise or no.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think we are going around the houses with this discussion, given that you seem to be exonerating the Palestinians as towards any self-destructive behaviour - Hamas tactics, for example, and which ultimately would lead them to sorrow - whilst I am just trying to show that the horrible human losses to the civilians in Gaza, coming about from the initial Hamas attack against Israel, was inevitable and determined by the cynical, cowardly, if not detestable actions of Hamas, given that they must have known as to the outcome

Hamas's attack was only the latest salvo in Israel's
oppression of, & war on Palestinians. It differs only
in scale from prior wars, & the policy of expansion
by settlers killing Palestinians, & taking their land.

We seem to disagree as to whether the casualties could be avoided but where neither of us are experts or there.

One needn't be an expert to see that firing missiles
into residential areas in hopes of killing Hamas fighters
among civilians is a war crime.

Damage over accuracy: Israel admits bombing campaign in Gaza not limited to military targets | Milwaukee Independent

www.milwaukeeindependent.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/10/israel-dahiya-doctrine-disproportionate-strategy-military-gaza-idf/

Excerpted....
In recent days, Daniel Hagari, spokesman of the Israel Defense Forces, accused Hamas of “cynically” deploying its assets in civilian areas and near critical infrastructure, like hospitals. But when speaking in the offensive’s early stage, Hagari revealed that the “emphasis” of the IDF’s reprisal was “on damage and not on accuracy.”

 

[Mock Turtle]

Hamas's attack was only the latest salvo in Israel's
oppression of, & war on Palestinians. It differs only
in scale from prior wars, & the policy of expansion
by settlers killing Palestinians, & taking their land.

Well they are remarkably stupid in not obtaining the result they would have liked then, getting ten times the number they have killed and which will no doubt get worse. Must feel great to support such a dumb bunch of idiots.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Well they are remarkably stupid in not obtaining the result they would have liked then, getting ten times the number they have killed and which will no doubt get worse. Must feel great to support such a dumb bunch of idiots.

Okay, this is just totally unacceptable. In what world, in what Universe, in what possible alternative reality must you be living in to suggest that Revolingest SUPPORTS Hamas??

To twist "Israel is doing war crimes" to "You support Hamas" is disgusting. It is every bit as disgusting as suggesting that people who say "Hamas did a mass killing" must mean "You support genociding Muslims".

I'll expect you to apologise and retract this.

Also, by this exact same logic, Israel must be a "dumb bunch of idiots" for not thinking that terrorist attacks like 7/10 would be a direct consequence of their years of oppression of the Gazan people and their active genocide against Palestinians broadly. But, then, we're not the ones arguing that it's totally justified and reasonable to kill civilians.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Okay, this is just totally unacceptable. In what world, in what Universe, in what possible alternative reality must you be living in to suggest that Revolingest SUPPORTS Hamas??

To twist "Israel is doing war crimes" to "You support Hamas" is disgusting. It is every bit as disgusting as suggesting that people who say "Hamas did a mass killing" must mean "You support genociding Muslims".

I'll expect you to apologise and retract this.

Also, by this exact same logic, Israel must be a "dumb bunch of idiots" for not thinking that terrorist attacks like 7/10 would be a direct consequence of their years of oppression of the Gazan people and their active genocide against Palestinians broadly. But, then, we're not the ones arguing that it's totally justified and reasonable to kill civilians.

Butt out - I have finished with any discussions with you, given they got no where.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Butt out - I have finished with any discussions with you, given they got no where.

Because you brazenly make stuff up and attribute it to me, and now you're making stuff up and attributing to other posters.

I'm just pointing out this tactic. It's a forum. If you want a private discussion with another poster, post privately with them.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Actually, I can be accused of assuming the best,
ie, that there's a clear, albeit long & bumpy, path
to peace if Israel begins treating Palestinians &
Muslims equally to Jews.
This blames no one....just assigns responsibility to
the party whose actions should change for the better.

Israel does observe equal rights for its citizens. Outside Israel almost nobody has as many human rights observed. For example in Gaza you'd be killed for your atheism. You'd last as long as your blood didn't run out. Therefore of course you want there to be a state for Gaza where they can purge and purify and prevent atheists from existing and pressure Israel into killing its atheists, too. I see your logic.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Israel does observe equal rights for its citizens. Outside Israel almost nobody has as many human rights observed. For example in Gaza you'd be killed for your atheism. You'd last as long as your blood didn't run out. Therefore of course you want there to be a state for Gaza where they can purge and purify and prevent atheists from existing and pressure Israel into killing its atheists, too. I see your logic.

Not a fan of this logic, either.

"This state has laws and practices policies I find morally unacceptable. Therefore, it doesn't matter if their civilians are genocided, their land stolen through settler-colonialism, and their citizens have their rights removed by occupying states."

That's not a position any moral person would take.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well they are remarkably stupid in not obtaining the result they would have liked then, getting ten times the number they have killed and which will no doubt get worse. Must feel great to support such a dumb bunch of idiots.

I can't say they're stupid without knowing what their goals are.
Results have been multi-faceted, with the deaths, destruction,
& disapora being terrible. But there is also emerging acceptance
of the Palestinian cause, & that Israel has behaved heinously
for a long time. I've no idea what Hamas specifically expected,
or whether they've achieved their goals.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I can't say they're stupid without knowing what their goals are.
Results have been multi-faceted, with the deaths, destruction,
& disapora being terrible. But there is also emerging acceptance
of the Palestinian cause, & that Israel has behaved heinously
for a long time. I've no idea what Hamas specifically expected,
or whether they've achieved their goals.

One of my issues is as to how much of the population of Gaza has supported Hamas, now and in the future if they survive. Given that they must know that Hamas has been instrumental in the huge civilian losses. But so easy just to hate on Israel. Really no other way?

 

[Revoltingest]

Israel does observe equal rights for its citizens.

Ostensibly so, but it is "The Jewish State".
And many Jews express that Muslims don't belong there.

What to Know About the Arab Citizens of Israel

Arabs represent one-fifth of Israel’s population. Systemic discrimination, outbreaks of communal violence, and the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict continue to strain their ties with Israel’s Jew…

www.cfr.org

It reminds me of how it was for black folk
in the deep south in the 50s & 60s.
De juro =/= De facto

Outside Israel almost nobody has as many human rights observed. For example in Gaza you'd be killed for your atheism.

Gaza is a **** hole place (thanx to Israel).
But the residents deserve life, liberty, & prosperity
as much as I do, as Jews do, & as Christians do.

You'd last as long as your blood didn't run out.

I loathe Islam, Christianity & Judaism for what adherents
perpetrate against others, & even their own.
However, the faithful are all individuals, many of whom
have risen above the evils in their scriptures & cultures.
And all, even the vile fundies who look down upon this
infidel deserve human rights as much as I do.
My standard is their being human, not their country or
faith.

Therefore of course you want there to be a state for Gaza where they can purge and purify and prevent atheists from existing and pressure Israel into killing its atheists, too.

Muslims have been a major portion of the
SE Michigan population for a century.
I've known many, & we all live together in
peace & prosperity. So it could be in Gaza.

I see your logic.

I believe you do.
But you feign otherwise.

 

[Revoltingest]

One of my issues is as to how much of the population of Gaza has supported Hamas, now and in the future if they survive. Given that they must know that Hamas has been instrumental in the huge civilian losses. But so easy just to hate on Israel. Really no other way?

What support does Hamas actually have in Gaza?
And given that Hamas provides services such as
health care, how much of this support is for the
recent attack?
We should also note that Israel & many western
countries support Israel's oppression & war crimes.
Many Israelis & Jews believe that non-Jews deserve
fewer rights, & treat them as of lower value.
Why hate Palestinians who act rashly in the face
of Israeli brutality, theft, & murder?

Israel's apologists give Israel no responsibility
for the carnage they've wrought. They favor
peace only thru destruction of their many
enemies. They can't just kill & bomb their
way to peace. It's 70 years of failure.

 

[Orbit]

What support does Hamas actually have in Gaza?
And given that Hamas provides services such as
health care, how much of this support is for the
recent attack?
We should also note that Israel & many western
countries support Israel's oppression & war crimes.
Many Israelis & Jews believe that non-Jews deserve
fewer rights, & treat them as of lower value.
Why hate Palestinians who act rashly in the face
of Israeli brutality, theft, & murder?

Israel's apologists give Israel no responsibility
for the carnage they've wrought. They favor
peace only thru destruction of their many
enemies. They can't just kill & bomb their
way to peace. It's 70 years of failure.

Two stories about two surveys about what Palestinians think of Hamas, before and after Oct 7th/war.

Ron DeSantis called all Gazans 'antisemitic,' but polls suggest they dislike Hamas and feel hopeless about the Israeli blockade

In one poll, 64% demanded better health care, employment and education instead of “resistance,” and over 92% were outright angry at their living conditions.

fortune.com

Poll finds dramatic rise in Palestinian support for Hamas

JERUSALEM (AP) — A new poll released Tuesday finds a dramatic surge in Palestinian support for Hamas following last month's Gaza war, with around three quarters viewing the Islamic militants as victors in a battle against Israel to defend Jerusalem and its holy sites.

apnews.com

Takeaway: The bombardment of Gaza has resulted in a dramatic increase of support for Hamas.

 

[Revoltingest]

Two stories about two surveys about what Palestinians think of Hamas, before and after Oct 7th/war.

Ron DeSantis called all Gazans 'antisemitic,' but polls suggest they dislike Hamas and feel hopeless about the Israeli blockade

In one poll, 64% demanded better health care, employment and education instead of “resistance,” and over 92% were outright angry at their living conditions.

fortune.com

Poll finds dramatic rise in Palestinian support for Hamas

JERUSALEM (AP) — A new poll released Tuesday finds a dramatic surge in Palestinian support for Hamas following last month's Gaza war, with around three quarters viewing the Islamic militants as victors in a battle against Israel to defend Jerusalem and its holy sites.

apnews.com

Takeaway: The bombardment of Gaza has resulted in a dramatic increase of support for Hamas.

Interesting.
Israel apologists won't see consequences for Israel's war crimes.
It'll be "See...anti-semitic Palestinians support terrorism!"
They've no recognition that brutalizing a people will spark
anger & vengeance. Back in the day, they'd be the people
who'd torture & kill slaves for revolting against their masters.

What an odd tribe supports the Gazan massacre...
DeSantis, Jews, Democrats, Trump, Christians, liberals,
conservatives....all finding common ground as they
rally around Israel's oppression & war crimes.

But I notice that even Biden slyly hints now at some
relief for Palestinians. Perhaps he sees that Michigan,
a state he won in 2020, is turning against him precisely
because of his unwavering support for Israel's brutal
assault, & silence on islamophobia in USA.