An Unscientific Theory On Religion Forums

[Cacotopia]

Secular countries whose population state in census polls where 90% or more of it's citizens do not care about religion and do not believe. In those countries, crime rates are low, rape cases are low, education is high, standard of living is high, happiness index is high.

Countries whose populations are nearly 100% religious.

Education is low, crime is high, murder rates are high, rape cases are incalculable, standards of living are low, happiness index is low.

 

[Subduction Zone]

WHERE did you get that list, and those numbers?

I mean, really?

JONESTOWN? You are aware that Jim Jones was an atheist, right? He was rather proud of it.

....and in one breath you say that you aren't including Hitler (and neither do I, btw) but then you include the Holocaust in the list.

And I really am going to demand to know where you get the 800,000,000 figure. AND where you figure that every item on your list is about murders 'in the name of God."

Because in all honesty, I see a few in there that are absolutely ....er....not.

Oh, and yes, Stalin was raised as a 'Georgian Orthodox Christian,' but he declared himself to be an atheist and certainly made religion illegal for most of his term....and all the murders happened during his 'atheist' period.

I don't have time to look up each and every item on your list. However, I have seen a couple of problematic items on it, and the total is, er...well....

So you made the claim that all those events were murders 'in the name of God' I'm challenging it. You get to prove it.

Or at LEAST provide some references.

You have not provided any valid references that I can remember. And where did you get the idea that religion was banned in the Soviet Union from? It never was:

Religion in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

Some of the wackier Christian cults were banned, but not Christianity as a whole.

 

[ChristineM]

WHERE did you get that list, and those numbers?

I mean, really?

JONESTOWN? You are aware that Jim Jones was an atheist, right? He was rather proud of it.

....and in one breath you say that you aren't including Hitler (and neither do I, btw) but then you include the Holocaust in the list.

And I really am going to demand to know where you get the 800,000,000 figure. AND where you figure that every item on your list is about murders 'in the name of God."

Because in all honesty, I see a few in there that are absolutely ....er....not.

Oh, and yes, Stalin was raised as a 'Georgian Orthodox Christian,' but he declared himself to be an atheist and certainly made religion illegal for most of his term....and all the murders happened during his 'atheist' period.

I don't have time to look up each and every item on your list. However, I have seen a couple of problematic items on it, and the total is, er...well....

So you made the claim that all those events were murders 'in the name of God' I'm challenging it. You get to prove it.

Or at LEAST provide some references.

The list is easily accessible with a little research

I stated specifically "either one side or both".

My error on Hitler, the Holocaust accounted for around 6 million religiously motivated deaths, the other roughly 45 million are not counted.

The figures can be totted up with research. As i stated, each conflict was fought (by one side or both) on religious grounds

Stalin never declared himself to atheist. Yes he purged religion, he also purged atheist. Why dont you mention that?

Edit. After his power was consolidated Stalin rebuilt the clergy and opened 20,000+ churches. His funeral was officiated by not 1, not 2 but 3 church leaders. The actions of a confirmed atheist?

You are are entitled to to your er...well.... Your objections are easily addressed if only you had time. Never mind, please feel free to continue reporting untruths.

I challenged you claim first and provided evidence to refute it.

 

[Cacotopia]

still be waiting for that "willful apology" I'm never gonna get.

 

[ChristineM]

still be waiting for that "willful apology" I'm never gonna get.

Me too, he's already stated he won't apologise for insulating the memories of the dead. Religion !!!

 

[Cacotopia]

Me too, he's already stated he won't apologise for insulating the memories of the dead. Religion !!!

T'would appear we have taken the high road methinks.

 

[ChristineM]

T'would appear we have taken the high road methinks.

He seems to think so, he objects strongly to being contradicted by facts.

 

[Cacotopia]

He seems to think so, he objects strongly to being contradicted by facts.

facts logic and reason : the tools of satan and the greatest enemy to the church.

 

[ecco]

You keep trying to make the argument that I want to forcibly eliminate religion. That's not an argument I have been making.

I am making the argument that if religion did not exist, if people did not hold superstitious beliefs, then there would be no reason to kill in the name of god(s).

There would be one less reason to hate and kill.

And I am asking you how you want to see that happen, and pointing out that enforcing your opinion on others legally is a bad idea.

All I can do is repeat, again, what I have been saying.:

You keep trying to make the argument that I want to forcibly eliminate religion. That's not an argument I have been making.

I am making the argument that if religion did not exist, if people did not hold superstitious beliefs, then there would be no reason to kill in the name of god(s).​

Where do I propose "eliminating" religion? I am making a hypothetical "if religion did not exist" as in "if there was no, and had never been, such thing as religion". I really hope you can see the difference.

I have also mentioned that evangelism works fine. Try to convince others to see your POV.

To a very limited degree that works. Certainly, in Europe, the number of religious minded people has and is decreasing (excluding immigrants - but that's for another thread).

Having said that, humans have been superstitious since they began getting the intelligence to ask questions. Furthermore, religious people indoctrinate their offspring in the ways of religion from even before the infants can talk. The resulting POV is difficult, if not impossible, to overcome with reason and logic.[/QUOTE]

 

[ecco]

However, (and I honestly can't remember whether you call yourself 'militant' or not) 'militant' atheists are not perceived, generally, as people who are willing to stop at discussion.

I'm probably not, depending on what you mean by not "willing to stop at discussion".

But then who is? Putting aside figures like Mao and Stalin, could you give some examples of who you would label militant atheists.

I can easily name militant theists:

Robert L. Dear Jr. Planned Parenthood attack
Scott Roeder murder Dr. George R. Tiller
William Joseph Simmons leader of KKK
David Koresh leader of Branch Davidians​

 

[Cacotopia]

All I can do is repeat, again, what I have been saying.:

You keep trying to make the argument that I want to forcibly eliminate religion. That's not an argument I have been making.

I am making the argument that if religion did not exist, if people did not hold superstitious beliefs, then there would be no reason to kill in the name of god(s).​

Where do I propose "eliminating" religion? I am making a hypothetical "if religion did not exist" as in "if there was no, and had never been, such thing as religion". I really hope you can see the difference.





To a very limited degree that works. Certainly, in Europe, the number of religious minded people has and is decreasing (excluding immigrants - but that's for another thread).

Having said that, humans have been superstitious since they began getting the intelligence to ask questions. Furthermore, religious people indoctrinate their offspring in the ways of religion from even before the infants can talk. The resulting POV is difficult, if not impossible, to overcome with reason and logic.

[/QUOTE]

It is certainly possible to break free from it on your own from an early age, I think I lost my faith somewhere around 4th grade. I attended a Greek Orthodox school till 8th grade and catholic schools for high school. It was through theology courses that I lost my faith. Reading past what I was supposed to read in the bible, the mythology(older religion) classes, and some world religion courses, and when my English classes started in on the block of transcendentalism. Crusades in History classes, the Inquisition, yada yada yada. It just piled on the evils perpetrated on the world by the idea of god. Death everywhere.

I can't follow a belief that condones and commands such violence throughout history. Sure religion can reform, but they keep screwing up even until today. Priests be diddlin' kids, Vatican doesn't take responsibility, tries to hide it. Priests telling AIDS rampant areas to never use condoms? TV preachers stealing people's money. Even last year when my city Houston was underwater, Joey Moldysteen had the audacity to not open the doors of his mega church to displaced Houstonians, and the GALL to sail around in his yacht the "USS Blessed" around an underwater Houston handing out self help books and not food or water. People of his subterranean caliber give me the d***** chills.

 

[ecco]

WHERE did you get that list, and those numbers?

I mean, really?

JONESTOWN? You are aware that Jim Jones was an atheist, right? He was rather proud of it.

Annotated Transcript Q162 – Alternative Considerations of Jonestown & Peoples Temple
Annotated Transcript Q162
Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.

Jones: Hey! (unintelligible exclamation). (Pause) And I said, you’ve touched the ark. It’s no longer a wooden box, it’s no longer a paper Bible. Jeremiah said, get rid of the paper box, the talisman, the ark of the covenant (Jeremiah 3), and I said get a— rid of the letter, ’cause the letter killeth (2 Corinthians 3:6, “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”). I’ve told you, as I did in the day of Jesus, go out without purse or script (Matthew 10:9-10, “Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves…” See also Mark 6:8, Luke 10:4, Luke 22:35-36.).
​

Those are not the words of a "proud atheist". One again we see theists twisting and turning every which way to defend the faith.

 

[ecco]

It is certainly possible to break free from it on your own from an early age, I think I lost my faith somewhere around 4th grade.

I also realized around the 4th grade that god was fiction. However, it was far easier for me since I had not been indoctrinated since birth.

Nevertheless, for most people it is very difficult if not impossible.

 

[Cacotopia]

I also realized around the 4th grade that god was fiction. However, it was far easier for me since I had not been indoctrinated since birth.

Nevertheless, for most people it is very difficult if not impossible.

My parents tried. I think I should thank my ADD infested brain for sparing me though.

 

[Audie]

Annotated Transcript Q162 – Alternative Considerations of Jonestown & Peoples Temple
Annotated Transcript Q162
Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee III. If you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.

Jones: Hey! (unintelligible exclamation). (Pause) And I said, you’ve touched the ark. It’s no longer a wooden box, it’s no longer a paper Bible. Jeremiah said, get rid of the paper box, the talisman, the ark of the covenant (Jeremiah 3), and I said get a— rid of the letter, ’cause the letter killeth (2 Corinthians 3:6, “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”). I’ve told you, as I did in the day of Jesus, go out without purse or script (Matthew 10:9-10, “Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves…” See also Mark 6:8, Luke 10:4, Luke 22:35-36.).
​

Those are not the words of a "proud atheist". One again we see theists twisting and turning every which way to defend the faith.

Be fair now. That is not "the" faith. It has nothing to do with god jesus bible christianity.

I know smart honourable christians who'd not dream of thinking up nonsense
andthen defending it unto eternity because their sense of self admiteth not
thechance they could be in error.

You is way overgeneralizing.

As you well know.

 

[ecco]

Be fair now. That is not "the" faith. It has nothing to do with god jesus bible christianity.

I know smart honourable christians who'd not dream of thinking up nonsense
andthen defending it unto eternity because their sense of self admiteth not
thechance they could be in error.

You is way overgeneralizing.

As you well know.

My post was in response to ...

JONESTOWN? You are aware that Jim Jones was an atheist, right? He was rather proud of it.

 

[Audie]

My post was in response to ...

Oh.

 

[viole]

Over the last 22 years or so I've been for the most part pretty active on forums like this, religious forums, and I've noticed something over the last decade. I see it here as well. The predominate participant in religious discussion are irreligious. Outspoken or militant skeptics of the Bible and spirituality. Now I understand that my message tends to alienate everyone, believer and unbeliever alike, and truth be told I prefer discussions with atheist because they are more practical than the average believer, who is idealistic IMO, so I'm not complaining, but I am of the opinion that the reason for this is that the believer is quite comfortable in America, but the atheist (in one form or another, I use the term skeptic) is a somewhat repressed minority, politically and socially.

Do you think there is any truth to that?

It depends. I am Swedish, so the minority are the theists my country. Even though theism is increasing again, mainly because of Muslim immigration. However, we are trying to not repress those Christian minorities, as long as they do not interfere with public secular policy.

Well, the advantage is that we have no such nonsense like wars on Christmas or anything of the sort. I do Christmas with my kids every year and that is a big thing. Nativity scenes on public areas do not offend anybody in the same way displays of the (pagan) Yule goat does not seem to threaten the secular order, since Jesus and the Yule Goat are just parts of traditions, while being metaphysically equally plausible, in our minds. And since Christianity is not dictating public policy anymore, nobody cares.

I believe that is what the final goal of secularism should be. Believe what you want, celebrate what you want, but be warned: if any of your tenets leaks into public policy, you will be called out. For instance: it is OK to be against abortion or gay marriage for personal reasons, we can reason about it, but the moment you delegate these issues to the desires of invisible metaphysical entities you will be required to show them, and if you cannot, to shut up.
.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Audie]

It depends. I am Swedish, so the minority are the theists my country. Even though theism is increasing again, mainly because of Muslim immigration. However, we are trying to not repress those Christian minorities, as long as they do not interfere with public secular policy.

Well, the advantage is that we have no such nonsense like wars on Christmas or anything of the sort. I do Christmas with my kids every year and that is a big thing. Nativity scenes on public areas do not offend anybody in the same way displays of the (pagan) Yule goat does not seem to threaten the secular order, since Jesus and the Yule Goat are just parts of traditions, while being metaphysically equally plausible, in our minds. And since Christianity is not dictating public policy anymore, nobody cares.

I believe that is what the final goal of secularism should be. Believe what you want, celebrate what you want, but be warned: if any of your tenets leaks into public policy, you will be called out. For instance: it is OK to be against abortion or gay marriage for personal reasons, we can reason about it, but the moment you delegate these issues to the desires of invisible metaphysical entities you will be required to show them, and if you cannot, to shut up.
.

Ciao

- viole

Can I move there? I think I would blend in as a Swede.

 

[viole]

Can I move there? I think I would blend in as a Swede.

Of course you can, if you are not a Muslim. I don't recommend Muslims to move to Sweden, especially in the north of the country. For their safety.

Around this time the sun never sets for a few weeks and you might starve to death in case of Ramadan.

Ciao

- viole