An Unscientific Theory On Religion Forums

[dianaiad]

Wrong again. But then you will never see your error.

m'friend, you can't establish an error by simply declaring one. Be my guest; tell me precisely what I'm wrong about; that this website doesn't count religious deaths in its own category as you claim it does?
(shrug)

But go ahead. feel free to show me.

And then feel free to show me how that is relevant.

 

[dianaiad]

This is a dishonest statement. You don't know where the world would be without religion, I would like to think we would be a whole lot more advanced without religious institutions persecuting, torturing, and executing scientists, philosophers, and people that did not think withing the religion's paradigm. Nor would I speculate that the monopoly on literacy formerly held by hegemonic theocratic governments and religions would have been as widespread. Perhaps ideas could have been more easily cultivated without religion to hold those in the past back.

I know where the nations were when their governments made religion illegal, (got rid of religion).

One can generally extrapolate results from a sample of 100%....that is, when every single government that 'got rid of religion' was not only murderous, but ended up crashing and burning because of lousy economies and other problems, it's fairly safe to say that we have some idea where the world would be without religion.

Or rather, where the world would be if we attempted to get rid of religion.

We cannot, of course, know what the world would be like if there had never BEEN anything like a religion, but that is, frankly, not even worth speculating about any more than wondering what the world would be like if unicorns really existed and they really did poop rainbows.

Now if all you atheists were to talk all the theists out of their beliefs peacefully so that all the religions just sort of disappeared ? That's a whole 'nuther topic.

............but I don't get the feeling that 'militant' atheists want to wait for that, or would be satisfied with that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And exactly where did I say, or write, that?



Definitely 'or what.'



Because it has been tried. Several times. Governments went to great lengths to make religion illegal.

....and life under those governments was, without exception, an exercise in avoiding dying/getting killed. Millions upon millions of people ended up dead because getting rid of religion didn't solve anything.

What, do you want another Stalin or Mao to run another country to see if THIS time getting rid of religion will work?

You are right. one can't get rid of religion by decree. That is doomed to failure. Though your examples fail terribly. Getting rid of religion must be done through reason.

 

[Subduction Zone]

m'friend, you can't establish an error by simply declaring one. Be my guest; tell me precisely what I'm wrong about; that this website doesn't count religious deaths in its own category as you claim it does?
(shrug)

But go ahead. feel free to show me.

And then feel free to show me how that is relevant.

Your source included clear Christians with Christian reasons for their killings. I am surprised that you are that ignorant of a source that you used.

 

[Audie]

And exactly where did I say, or write, that?



Definitely 'or what.'



Because it has been tried. Several times. Governments went to great lengths to make religion illegal.

....and life under those governments was, without exception, an exercise in avoiding dying/getting killed. Millions upon millions of people ended up dead because getting rid of religion didn't solve anything.

What, do you want another Stalin or Mao to run another country to see if THIS time getting rid of religion will work?

Your "ended up dead because" is a virtual definition for "facile"
but you surely recognize that.

Was getting rid of religion the primary goal
or one of many means to achieve an idealist vision?

Do you think that eliminating religion-as a long
term goal- could only be done thru mass murder?

All it took with me was, I was not innoculated with
it as a child.

 

[Audie]

You are right. one can't get rid of religion by decree. That is doomed to failure. Though your examples fail terribly. Getting rid of religion must be done through reason.

I win coz i used more words to say the same thing.

 

[Audie]

You mean you are bottling out again when the evidence shows you wrong? How predictable

Drive-by poster?

 

[ChristineM]

Drive-by poster?

So it seems

 

[Subduction Zone]

I win coz i used more words to say the same thing.

ROFL

Yes you did . So I went back and gave you a "winner" badge

 

[ChristineM]

Your "ended up dead because" is a virtual definition for "facile"
but you surely recognize that.

Was getting rid of religion the primary goal
or one of many means to achieve an idealist vision?

Do you think that eliminating religion-as a long
term goal- could only be done thru mass murder?

All it took with me was, I was not innoculated with
it as a child.

All it took with me was Christian bigotry. Not much has changed in 30 years

 

[Subduction Zone]

So it seems

Let's just say rather infrequent poster. In five and a half years he has 674 posts. He made a few posts on this topic, he might come back for more.

 

[dianaiad]

You keeping trying to make the argument that I want to forcibly eliminate religion. That's not an argument I have been making.

I am making the argument that if religion did not exist, if people did not hold superstitious beliefs, then there would be no reason to kill in the name of god(s).

There would be one less reason to hate and kill.

And I am asking you how you want to see that happen, and pointing out that enforcing your opinion on others legally is a bad idea.

I have also mentioned that evangelism works fine. Try to convince others to see your POV.

However, (and I honestly can't remember whether you call yourself 'militant' or not) 'militant' atheists are not perceived, generally, as people who are willing to stop at discussion.

 

[Cacotopia]

I know where the nations were when their governments made religion illegal, (got rid of religion).

One can generally extrapolate results from a sample of 100%....that is, when every single government that 'got rid of religion' was not only murderous, but ended up crashing and burning because of lousy economies and other problems, it's fairly safe to say that we have some idea where the world would be without religion.

Or rather, where the world would be if we attempted to get rid of religion.

We cannot, of course, know what the world would be like if there had never BEEN anything like a religion, but that is, frankly, not even worth speculating about any more than wondering what the world would be like if unicorns really existed and they really did poop rainbows.

Now if all you atheists were to talk all the theists out of their beliefs peacefully so that all the religions just sort of disappeared ? That's a whole 'nuther topic.

............but I don't get the feeling that 'militant' atheists want to wait for that, or would be satisfied with that.

I'm talking as if religion NEVER EXISTED, like you said before. Now you are trying to weasel out of what you said before.

 

[Cacotopia]

"If theism never existed there would be no atheists"

We just be people. with different labels.

And no gods to kill each other over.

Just resources.

 

[dianaiad]

It really bugs me when religious go on about the murders atheists have carried out saying they account for far more than religious murders.

Here is an incomplete list of wars or conflicts in which one side or both were fighting in the name of religion.

Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49
Algeria, 1992-
Baha'is, 1848-54
Bosnia, 1992-95
Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901
Christian Romans, 30-313 CE
Croatia, 1991-92
English Civil War, 1642-46
Holocaust, 1938-45
Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598
India, 1992-2002
India: Suttee & Thugs
Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947
Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979-
Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92
Jews, 1348
Jonestown, 1978
Lebanon 1860 / 1975-92
Molucca Is., 1999-
Mongolia, 1937-39
Northern Ireland, 1974-98
Russian pogroms 1905-06 / 1917-22
St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572
Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE
Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38
Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91
Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834
Taiping Rebellion, 1850-64
Thirty Years War, 1618-48
Tudor England
Vietnam, 1800s
Witch Hunts, 1400-1800
Xhosa, 1857
Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE
Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948-
Al Qaeda, 1993-
Crusades, 1095-1291
Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609
Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s

These account for in excess of 800,000,000 deaths in the name of religion, beat that atheists.

Note the list does not included those killed by Hitler (catholic) or Stalin (Georgian Orthodox Christian) both murdered for nationalistic reasons, not religious

WHERE did you get that list, and those numbers?

I mean, really?

JONESTOWN? You are aware that Jim Jones was an atheist, right? He was rather proud of it.

....and in one breath you say that you aren't including Hitler (and neither do I, btw) but then you include the Holocaust in the list.

And I really am going to demand to know where you get the 800,000,000 figure. AND where you figure that every item on your list is about murders 'in the name of God."

Because in all honesty, I see a few in there that are absolutely ....er....not.

Oh, and yes, Stalin was raised as a 'Georgian Orthodox Christian,' but he declared himself to be an atheist and certainly made religion illegal for most of his term....and all the murders happened during his 'atheist' period.

I don't have time to look up each and every item on your list. However, I have seen a couple of problematic items on it, and the total is, er...well....

So you made the claim that all those events were murders 'in the name of God' I'm challenging it. You get to prove it.

Or at LEAST provide some references.

 

[Cacotopia]

It's fairly unsafe to say where the world would be without religion, having a bias of what the world is like WITH religion. Especially since you think the world would be in a trash bin without it, but ignoring that the most irreligious countries in existence today, generally are the happiest, least crime ridden, and have the highest standards of living. AND the lowest murder rates.

 

[dianaiad]

I'm talking as if religion NEVER EXISTED, like you said before. Now you are trying to weasel out of what you said before.

ARE you? I don't remember that you said anything of the sort. However, if you will provide me with the post in which you stated that you were talking about what the world would be like if religion had never existed, I'll willingly apologize.

The problem, though, remains the same. Religion DOES exist.

 

[Cacotopia]

Did I mention the cases of rape are the lowest in heathen countries?

 

[dianaiad]

It's fairly unsafe to say where the world would be without religion, having a bias of what the world is like WITH religion. Especially since you think the world would be in a trash bin without it, but ignoring that the most irreligious countries in existence today, generally are the happiest, least crime ridden, and have the highest standards of living. AND the lowest murder rates.

No, Cacotopia. I don't think that the world would be in a trash bin without it. Though you are quite free to show me the post in which I wrote that.

Good luck with THAT search, btw.

In fact, I believe that in at least two of the posts that I submitted here, I said that the best...indeed, the only government that doesn't have those problems are SECULAR ones. You know, the governments which keep their mitts out of religion? The nations where the people can worship...or not...as they please.

If those nations seem 'irreligious' to you, it's because the individuals within those cultures have chosen their own religious...or non religious...paths to take, and the only law that affects their dealings with deity is the one that says they can't force others to their way of living, thinking and worshiping.

 

[Cacotopia]

This is a dishonest statement. You don't know where the world would be without religion, I would like to think we would be a whole lot more advanced without religious institutions persecuting, torturing, and executing scientists, philosophers, and people that did not think withing the religion's paradigm. Nor would I speculate that the monopoly on literacy formerly held by hegemonic theocratic governments and religions would have been as widespread. Perhaps ideas could have been more easily cultivated without religion to hold those in the past back.