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Ancient flood stories from many parts of the world
- Thread starter Agnostic75
- Start date
Did you know that the God told Noah exactly what the dimensions of the ark were to be? Did you know that we now know these dimensions would give the ship optimal stability?
I ask you: Did the bible authors have so much science that they knew how to build the most stable ship, or did the God of the bible really design it?
I don't think it is faith alone
It didn't. Where'd you get that idea?
No I didn't know that. What are your sources?Did you know that the God told Noah exactly what the dimensions of the ark were to be? Did you know that we now know these dimensions would give the ship optimal stability?
I ask you: Did the bible authors have so much science that they knew how to build the most stable ship, or did the God of the bible really design it?
I don't think it is faith alone
outhouse
Atheistically
Did you know that noah never existed outside mythology according ever credible historian ?
We know for a fact ancient Israelites used the mesopotamian version as their foundation when they came back to Israel after the babylonian exile.
We also know the original legend is Sumerian and there was real flood. The Euphrates overflowed in 2900 BC and this flood is attested. A real man found on the kings list is said to have gone down the flooded river on a barge, Ziusudra loaded up the barge with animals and what he coudl before teh flood waters took him down river. This legend spawned all the opther legends in the levant. this is a fact, not mythology.
This legend also predates all Israelites by some 1700 years.
What you dont understand is, Israelites didnt exist until 1200 BC, and at that time they were nothing more then polytheistic displaced Canaanites
Please, your lack of historical knowledge will only get you in trouble, as you dabble in areas you shouldnt venture. A wooden boat that size is a structural impossibility.
the ark is 100% mythical according to all credible historians, scientist, geologist, ect ect ect
You only have faith and that is all.
I honestly wish you knew the first thing about the god concept so we could have a great discussion.
I really dont think you have a clue how the god concept evolved from multiple deities, let alone for you to start attributing something to said concept.
your lack of knowledge in engineering starts to embarrass you at this point because, if a god did invent a ship design, I hope he could do one that actually could work if built, but the design in the bible not only would break a part on its maiden voyage, but by its size alone could not house the animals its reported to hold.
So to sum it up, pathetic design, and to small to work
Bud there is no mystery here about the legend, its origin, nor its place in theology as allegory.
You have nothing more then faith
dyanaprajna2011
Dharmapala
Here's the reason why, I think, there are so many ancient flood stories:
Ancient man came up with the idea of god/gods, in order to explain certain things around him that he did not understand. Now, think back to when civilization first began, around 3000 BCE, where did they start? Around rivers. Man, since he first began to build towns, lived around rivers. During spring rains or monsoon seasons, these rivers would flood. So, naturally, ancient man came up with stories of how their gods caused the rivers to flood. As man spread, they took their stories with them, incorporating new elements. Eventually, these got passed down as the stories we know today, such as Noah, the Epic of Gilgamesh, etc. The stories are all myths, however, they have some basis in fact, but nothing of any supernatural occurrence.
Ancient man came up with the idea of god/gods, in order to explain certain things around him that he did not understand. Now, think back to when civilization first began, around 3000 BCE, where did they start? Around rivers. Man, since he first began to build towns, lived around rivers. During spring rains or monsoon seasons, these rivers would flood. So, naturally, ancient man came up with stories of how their gods caused the rivers to flood. As man spread, they took their stories with them, incorporating new elements. Eventually, these got passed down as the stories we know today, such as Noah, the Epic of Gilgamesh, etc. The stories are all myths, however, they have some basis in fact, but nothing of any supernatural occurrence.
I don't know what frozen men to which you refer.
The Bible reveals that after the Flood, false worship and rebellion once again sprouted. Genesis 11 reveals the construction of a city and tower built to "make a celebrated name for ourselves [not God], for fear we may be scattered over all the surface of the earth." (Genesis 11:4) Babel was built in defiance of Jehovah and his purpose to have men 'fill the earth.' The tower built was apparently a ziggurat, a pyramid shaped structure with a shrine on top, used for false worship. God thwarted their plans and "scattered them from there over all the surface of the earth." (Genesis 11:9) These people took their knowledge of man's early history and their false religion from Babel to all parts of the earth. Thus the commonality of many of the myths about the Flood. This also accounts for the similarity in religious structures found among different peoples.
To those ones who were faithful to God, including Shem and Abraham, they would transmit the Flood account accurately, Shem having been an eyewitness of the Flood.
As to your comment: "Besides, a world-wide flood is over-kill. With laser like accuracy, God could have zapped only the bad people and the nephilim and left the poor animals alone." We need to remember that "as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaish 55:9) I believe God had excellent reasons for proceeding as he did.
Matthew 24:37-39 and other scriptures show the Flood has prophetic significance for our time. Men deny the Flood occurred, and they most certainly would deny a selective "zapping" of the wicked. Further, the Flood not only destroyed the wicked, but apparently changed the climate and topography of the earth dramatically, according to God's purpose. Whatever God's reasons for choosing a global Deluge to destroy the wicked, I'm sure he acted justly and wisely.
outhouse
Atheistically
here is a pre flood myth, ice man
Ötzi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
dating him to 5300 years ago, thats a thousand before the mythical flood.
now had there been a flood he could not have been found in ice preserved, in water he would have rotted
outhouse
Atheistically
Fairbanks Daily News-Miner - Body of ice age child found in Interior Alaska
11,500 years old
Remains of ice age child found in Interior Alaska
Read more: Fairbanks Daily News-Miner - Body of ice age child found in Interior Alaska
FAIRBANKS — An 11,500-year-old set of human remains has been discovered in the Tanana Valley, a find that could provide new insight into the history of indigenous people in the subarctic.
Read
11,500 years old
Remains of ice age child found in Interior Alaska
Read more: Fairbanks Daily News-Miner - Body of ice age child found in Interior Alaska
FAIRBANKS — An 11,500-year-old set of human remains has been discovered in the Tanana Valley, a find that could provide new insight into the history of indigenous people in the subarctic.
Read
Skwim
Veteran Member
Actually, if it was wider and less tall it would have even more stability. So it wasn't even close to being optimal. And a low wide craft as described in the Bible:
300 cubits (450') long. 50 cubits (75') wide. 30 cubits (45') high.
Source: Wikipedia
would be a no-brainer. It doesn't take a genius, much less a god, to recognize that water craft with a low and wide profile are inherently more stable than those with a high, narrow profile. And to make it even more stable one could simply change its length to width ratio of 6:1. to 2.6:1 giving it a length of 200 and a width of 75. Source: Wikipedia
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Why tell the truth when you can make up a few things to make a point. Did God get rid of the problem by drowning all the miscreants? No. So what good did it do? Did God solve the problem by confusing the languages? No. But, it makes for a good "how we got here" story for the Hebrews to tell their kids.
So 3000 to 4000 years ago a kid asks, "Daddy, why is the world such a confused mess?"
"My son, it was God's plan all along. He put a tree with forbidden fruit in the middle of a garden knowing we'd eat. We got cursed. That's why tomorrow we're going to work all day in the hot sun." He goes on to tell him about the flood, the tower of Babel, Moses and the walking stick that turned into a snake, the sun standing still, and many more awe inspiring stories of how great God is. And, how bad we are. And, how bad we still are, in spite of being "saved," "born-again," or whatever.
The stories in the Bible are great religious stories, but do they change lives? Whether or not the myth-sounding stories are true or made up, I think most of us miss the point, do good and quit being jerks to each other.
So 3000 to 4000 years ago a kid asks, "Daddy, why is the world such a confused mess?"
"My son, it was God's plan all along. He put a tree with forbidden fruit in the middle of a garden knowing we'd eat. We got cursed. That's why tomorrow we're going to work all day in the hot sun." He goes on to tell him about the flood, the tower of Babel, Moses and the walking stick that turned into a snake, the sun standing still, and many more awe inspiring stories of how great God is. And, how bad we are. And, how bad we still are, in spite of being "saved," "born-again," or whatever.
The stories in the Bible are great religious stories, but do they change lives? Whether or not the myth-sounding stories are true or made up, I think most of us miss the point, do good and quit being jerks to each other.
Looncall
Well-Known Member
The dating methods have been shown to be accurate when properly applied, regardless of what "liars for Jebus" may say.
A flood is a flood, and the effects are well understood. If you dug through soil where a global flood happened, you would certainly see some kind of discontinuity. None is found in the time period claimed for the flood: no such global flood happened.
This is a lost cause. It is embarassing to see people clinging to that old yarn.
A wooden boat of those dimensions would not last ten minutes in the calmest water. The stress placed on the hull by gentlest wave would split the boat to splinters. The idea that such a vessel would be sea worthy for a year in rough weather is just one of the many absurdities that come from a literal interpretation of the Noah myth.
fantôme profane;3085327 said:
The ark was not a boat. It was a wooden chest designed only to float. It's length was six times its width and ten times its height, a ratio used in many modern ships. It's three stories would add to the ark's stability, as would even distribution of it's cargo. Your claim that a gentle wave would split such a vessel to splinters is simply your unsupported opinion.
I don't understand your reference to "liars for Jebus." Yes, a flood is a flood, just as a Tsunami is a wave. Size does matter. As to dating methods, professor of metallurgy Melvin A. Cook noted: "One may only guess these concentrations [of radioactive materials], and the age results thus obtained can be no better than this guess." And please note that the Flood of Noah's day did bring enormous changes that could well have affected such concentrations.
So is it your position that by teaching lies, the Bible is urging us to be moral and kind? To the contrary, I think it is as Jesus said in prayer to God, "Sanctify them [Jesus disciples] by means of the truth; your word is truth." (John 17:17) Jesus believed the accounts of Adam, the Flood, and other accounts in Genesis to be accurate history, and so do his true disciples today.
dyanaprajna2011
Dharmapala
Have you never heard of allegory, metaphor, etc.? The stories don't have to be historically true to prove a point. Matter of fact, those concerned with attempting to prove their historical veracity are missing the point completely, in my opinion. The early church sure thought the same. Personally, I find it funny when Christians try to tell new and non believers that the only way to be saved is to believe in the literal historical and scientific veracity of the Bible, especially when that very same Bible says that, in order to be saved, all one has to do is believe in the lordship of Jesus. As far as the story of Noah is concerned, Peter thought that an allegorical interpretation was more important than a literal one, he taught that the flood represented baptism. So, trying to force a literal historical understanding on Biblical stories not only is going against what we know, it's missing the point of the stories themselves.
I appreciate your comments. Jesus did not teach the account of Adam and Eve was allegory or a morality play. He taught they were real people. (Matthew 19:4-8)
The geneologies in the Bible include lineage back to Adam. (Luke 3) Other places in the Bible speak of Adam as an historical figure. (1 Corinthians 15:45, Acts 17:26 are two examples of many).
Contrary to the notion that Peter thought the Flood was an allegory, Peter noted it's historicity. Peter wrote concerning those who ridicule God's coming day of wrath: "According to their wish, this fact escaptes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God, and by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water." (2 Peter 3:5,6) 2 Peter 2:7 also speaks of the Deluge and Noah as historical realities.
1 Peter 3:20,21 speaks of the time "when the patience of God was waiting in Noah's days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water. That which corresponds to this is also now saving you, namely, baptism." It was not the Deluge that saved Noah, but his faith in building the Ark. Similarly, faith in God's provision for salvation through Christ saves us. Clearly, if the Flood were a myth, Noah's salvation would also be a lie, as would any corresponding salvation today. In my opinion, the Bible is quite clear about what is historical fact and what is allegory.
dyanaprajna2011
Dharmapala
This leads me to a question: what value to one's faith is it to believe in a literal historical understanding of the Bible over simply an allegorical or metaphorical one? Does it matter that much? And, maybe most importantly, do you believe that your god cares that much about whether one believes the Bible to be more spiritual and less historical, or more historical?
No, it is supported by the laws of science and material physics. We know the kind of stresses experienced by long wooden boats. Making it taller and loading it down would hardly add to the stability. And it would not stop the wood from cracking under the strain.
Full sized replicas of the ark have been built, but kept on dry land. I believe the good folks at AIG are currently working on just such a project. But I can guarantee you this, they won't put it in the water. They know it would sink.
Of course I could be proven wrong. Just build the thing and put it in the water. But they won't. They will always put it on dry land.