And He Shall Be Called a Nazarene

[Rival]

Esther and Daniel were the very last to be added.

IIRC Esther was hotly debated.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How do you know that?

I did this in another thread, and you can scroll back. Or you can do it yourself. Go to google, and type in "Nazarite English to Hebrew" save the Hebrew word. then change the word to Nazarene. compare the two words and you will see that they are different. Now type in the phrase "Nazarite English to Greek" and save the word. change the word to Nazarene and compare. You will see that, again, they are different.

Basically, a Nazarite is someone who takes on certain voluntary vows. A Nazarene is someone who comes from Nazareth, or who is a follower of the Nazarene aka Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Our rabbinical authorities decided the Jewish canon. Most scholars say it was closed at the council of Jamnia. However, much of it was accepted long before that. The Torah was the first to be accepted, followed by the Prophets. It was the Writings that were the final addition. If I am not mistaken, Esther and Daniel were the very last to be added.

The Christian New Testament canon was determined by the bishops of the church in the 4th century.

I understand this - but that didn't really answer my question.

You believe that these men have the authority to decide what should be included in scripture?

And if you do - why?

 

[Teritos]

I checked your Strong's sites. Both sites (including the Nazarene sites) and both sites list Nazarite as meaning separated/consecrated.

I think you misunderstand something. The first lexicon Thayer transliterates the Greek word Nazoraios which is often written in English as "Nazarene" as Nazarite. So Nazarite here means Nazarene.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

Nazōraios
Nazarite = "one separated"
1) an inhabitant of Nazareth
2) a title given to Jesus in the NT
3) a name given to Christians by the Jews, Acts 24:5
Part of Speech: noun proper masculine
Relation: from G3478
Citing in TDNT: 4:874, 625

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I understand this - but that didn't really answer my question.

You believe that these men have the authority to decide what should be included in scripture?

And if you do - why?

Yes, I absolutely think these men have the authority to determine canon. They are the authorities of their religions. Even in Christianity, if you are Protestant, you have to acknowledge that before there was the canon of the NT, that the institution of the Church was what carried authority. Because who else would? I mean, surely you aren't suggesting that each individual should decide for themselves!

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Yes, I absolutely think these men have the authority to determine canon. They are the authorities of their religions. Even in Christianity, if you are Protestant, you have to acknowledge that before there was the canon of the NT, that the institution of the Church was what carried authority. Because who else would? I mean, surely you aren't suggesting that each individual should decide for themselves!

That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

You put yourself in a box and all you will see is the inside of the box.

If all you ever experience is the inside of the box - you start to believe that there is nothing outside of it.

Then you start to claim that people talking about things that exist outside of the box are liars - like the author of Matthew.

Let the Holy Spirit guide. It will whisper what is true.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

You put yourself in a box and all you will see is the inside of the box.

If all you ever experience is the inside of the box - you start to believe that there is nothing outside of it.

Then you start to claim that people talking about things that exist outside of the box are liars - like the author of Matthew.

Let the Holy Spirit guide. It will whisper what is true.

I don't go for this "the Holy Spirit will guide you." The Holy Spirit supposedly guides Christians yet they end up with all sorts of contradictory doctrines that result in thousands of different denominations. Sorry, but every Christian being their own pope just is a catastrophe for the credibility of Christianity.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I don't go for this "the Holy Spirit will guide you." The Holy Spirit supposedly guides Christians yet they end up with all sorts of contradictory doctrines that result in thousands of different denominations. Sorry, but every Christian being their own pope just is a catastrophe for the credibility of Christianity.

Yeah - cause following the actual Pope has led to world peace.

Following anyone - even the Pope - can only get you so far.

And who is to guarantee that these men are making the right calls?

I'm not saying that we should go without leaders or structure.

I just believe that it is important that we study things for ourselves - like those book of scripture that were thrown out - and decide if they have value.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Had Matthew intended to cite an exact prophetic quotation from the Old Testament, he would have cited a specific prophet, instead of saying summarily, as he does, “the prophets”.
23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Dave Watchman]

greek and aramaic was the preferred language in 1st century palestine, not hebrew. hebrew was little of no importance to no one but rabbis and scholars. so your language is really of no importance in relevance to 1st century anywhere
your language isn't important to no one but you

"My own opinion is that the canonical Gospel is an abridged edition of a larger work, of which fragments still survive, and which contained all and more of the acts and sayings of Christ than is now found in the four accepted Gospels put together. I believe that this Protevangel was written in Hebrew, not in Aramaic, and was intended by the Judæn Christians who produced it to become the last book of the Old Testament canon, such a collection as the New Testament not having at that time been thought of.

"Whatever may have been its original title, we have early allusions to it under the name of “the Gospel,” “the Gospel of the Lord,” “the Gospel of the Twelve, or, of the Apostles,” “the Gospel of the Hebrews” and “the Hebrew Matthew.” As to this document being intended to complete the canon of the Old Testament, I might quotein support of this suggestion the statement of the Judæo-Christian historian, Hegesippus, in the second century that “in every city, that prevails which the Law, and the Prophets, and the Lord enjoin.”​

- Hugh Schonfield, . An Old Hebrew Text of St. Matthew's Gospel: Translated and with an Introduction Notes and Appendices (p. 9). The Hugh & Helene Schonfield World Service Trust.​

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Dogknox20]

Peaceful Sabbath.

Dave Watchman Good to meet you...
Question: Do you keep Saturday Sabbath!? I am sure you know Christians keep Holy Sundays the Lords day, the day Jesus rose from the dead!

 

[Dogknox20]

Yeah - cause following the actual Pope has led to world peace.

Following anyone - even the Pope - can only get you so far.

And who is to guarantee that these men are making the right calls?

I'm not saying that we should go without leaders or structure.

I just believe that it is important that we study things for ourselves - like those book of scripture that were thrown out - and decide if they have value.

Fallen Prophet good to meet you: I reply: What you said (above) is the root cause of all the chaos.. Thousands of man made churches all claiming to have the only truth but not even two of the thousands believe the same things! All because men have taken it upon themselves to decide truth! Rejecting the scriptures outright or twisting God' words until God said what they want him to have said! No man is an expert thinking you are is where the problem starts!

 

[Dave Watchman]

Dave Watchman Good to meet you...
Question: Do you keep Saturday Sabbath!? I am sure you know Christians keep Holy Sundays the Lords day, the day Jesus rose from the dead!

You too Dog.

If I thought Jesus was at the door, I'd keep both days, Just to be on the safe side.

But on the Seventh Day, I will do no work.

I didn't get through the thread yet, but I liked your post about the plural.

Prophet, or prophets.

A Catholic Bishop pulled the duTillet Hebrew version of Matthew out of the fire durring the middle ages.

That's what I think it is, a translation issue of punctuation.

Like:

“Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”​

Or should the translators have punctuated it like this:

“Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.”​

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Fallen Prophet good to meet you: I reply: What you said (above) is the root cause of all the chaos.. Thousands of man made churches all claiming to have the only truth but not even two of the thousands believe the same things! All because men have taken it upon themselves to decide truth! Rejecting the scriptures outright or twisting God' words until God said what they want him to have said! No man is an expert thinking you are is where the problem starts!

The Catholic Church didn't spread any chaos? They didn't get things wrong? They didn't reject any scriptures or twist God's words?

I'm not knocking Catholics - but Mankind is screwed either way - unless God sends actual prophets again and people listen.

 

[Dogknox20]

The Catholic Church didn't spread any chaos? They didn't get things wrong? They didn't reject any scriptures or twist God's words?

I'm not knocking Catholics - but Mankind is screwed either way - unless God sends actual prophets again and people listen.

Fallen Prophet I hope all is well with you....
I point out: The bible was put together by The Holy Catholic Church! She alone decided the truly inspired words of God and rejected the phony manuscripts/letters! Until the Church put the "Inspired Words of God" into one book she named "The Bible" no one was sure what was truly God' inspired words! The Church came before the bible!
Jesus established a CHURTH he gave her AUTHORITY to make disciples and to TEACH all nations!

Luke 10:16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Fallen Prophet Did you see it? Rejecting the Church is rejecting GOD! SURE...

Sure there are / were many bad people in the Catholic church but the Church herself remains holy without blame! She is full to the rafters with sinners!
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
Fallen Prophet Forever with the Catholic Church!

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Fallen Prophet You assume the Church fell off the rails... WHY?! Simple answer is; Because there are thousands of man made churches telling you so! All of these man made churches are trying to Re-FORM what Jesus lost! All/Most Teaching: Jesus somehow lost his body to Satan, that Satan somehow overpowered Jesus and Satan TOOK Jesus' holy body from Jesus! That they have to come to God' rescue and reestablish what Jesus lost!
FACT: Jesus built his church on ROCK! He did not build on sand his church will never fall, what God does he does right!
Fallen Prophet "Listen to the Church or be treated as a Pagan!" A pagan is a person OUTSIDE of God' family!

 

[Dave Watchman]

Furthermore, Matthew 2:28 makes it clear that it is the fact that Joseph and Mary lived in the city of Nazareth that fulfills the prophecy,

And it does.

But it's not a specific individual prophecy that he is referring to.

The beginning of understanding is what Dog says here:

Had Matthew intended to cite an exact prophetic quotation from the Old Testament, he would have cited a specific prophet, instead of saying summarily, as he does, “the prophets”.
23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.

"Had Matthew intended to cite an exact prophetic quotation from the Old Testament, he would have cited a specific prophet, instead of saying summarily, as he does, “the prophets”.​

Beautiful.

Mathew used the phrase, “through the prophet(s)”, more than anyone.

Only one time did he use the plural version; "This fulfilled what the prophetS had said.

therefore the prophecy if you find it must be about the city of Nazareth.

Maybe not.

All that it means is, it could NOT be BETHLEHEM, EGYPT or RAMAH.

In the translation you quote:

"So the family went and lived in a town called Nazareth. This fulfilled what the prophets had said: “He will be called a Nazarene.”​

We see the quotes around “He will be called a Nazarene.”

But not all translations have that:

"Then he went and settled in a town called Nazareth to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets, that He will be called a Nazarene. - CSB​

And some don't even have the "that", that He will be called a Nazarene:

"And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. - KJV​

Don't forget that the translators put the punctuation in.

It could have been read like this:

"And he came out of Egypt and dwelt in a city called Nazareth that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets. He shall be called a Nazarene.​

And since Mathew uses the plural, we know he's not talking about one single prophet or prophecy.

I'm sure, considering the context, if we could hear Matthew's voice speak the words, we would understand by the inflection points alone.

Mathew was addressing the times Jesus' family was on the run from Herod. They couldn't stay in Bethlehem, so they ran to Egypt. He avoids the slaughter of the innocents. When it's all safe they can come back out of Egypt.

"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." - Michah 5:2

"And out of Egypt I called My son. - Hosea 11;1

"A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." - Jeremiah 31:15​

They said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet: ‘AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH, ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH; FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.’” - Matthew 2:5-6

So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt. He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON." - Matthew 2:14-15

Then what had been spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “A VOICE WAS HEARD IN RAMAH, WEEPING AND GREAT MOURNING, RACHEL WEEPING FOR HER CHILDREN; AND SHE REFUSED TO BE COMFORTED, BECAUSE THEY WERE NO MORE.” - Matthew 2:17-18​

Mathew is not saying there's a specific verse, or prophet, that calls Jesus a "Nazarene", He is merely summarizing the events Jesus fulfilled prior to ending up where He did.

Therefore, NOW He shall be called a Nazarene. Matthew is simply stating a conclusion, the culmination of young Jesus' travels in His flight for saftey. Now He can find a place to rest his head, Now He will be called a Nazarene. This fulfils what the prophets said regarding Chris's young life on the run.

It probably could have been anywhere other that Bethlehem or Egypt.

Pick a town from the Old Time Jews:

I don't go for this "the Holy Spirit will guide you." The Holy Spirit supposedly guides Christians yet they end up with all sorts of contradictory doctrines that result in thousands of different denominations. Sorry, but every Christian being their own pope just is a catastrophe for the credibility of Christianity.

If we shall be Kings and Priests, like Revelation 5 says, why not our own pope.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Fallen Prophet I hope all is well with you....
I point out: The bible was put together by The Holy Catholic Church! She alone decided the truly inspired words of God and rejected the phony manuscripts/letters! Until the Church put the "Inspired Words of God" into one book she named "The Bible" no one was sure what was truly God' inspired words! The Church came before the bible!
Jesus established a CHURTH he gave her AUTHORITY to make disciples and to TEACH all nations!

Luke 10:16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Fallen Prophet Did you see it? Rejecting the Church is rejecting GOD! SURE...

Sure there are / were many bad people in the Catholic church but the Church herself remains holy without blame! She is full to the rafters with sinners!
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
Fallen Prophet Forever with the Catholic Church!

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Fallen Prophet You assume the Church fell off the rails... WHY?! Simple answer is; Because there are thousands of man made churches telling you so! All of these man made churches are trying to Re-FORM what Jesus lost! All/Most Teaching: Jesus somehow lost his body to Satan, that Satan somehow overpowered Jesus and Satan TOOK Jesus' holy body from Jesus! That they have to come to God' rescue and reestablish what Jesus lost!
FACT: Jesus built his church on ROCK! He did not build on sand his church will never fall, what God does he does right!
Fallen Prophet "Listen to the Church or be treated as a Pagan!" A pagan is a person OUTSIDE of God' family!

Sorry - but I don't accept the authority of the Catholic Church.

The disciples of Christ and the First Fathers had scriptures before the Catholic Church.

 

[Dogknox20]

Sorry - but I don't accept the authority of the Catholic Church.

The disciples of Christ and the First Fathers had scriptures before the Catholic Church.

.
Hello once again... The Apostles & Church Fathers were all Catholics! Sure there was scriptures but no one knew what was INSPIRED scriptures until the Catholic Church make her book; the bible!
Ignatius is the first to use the word catholic in reference to the Church. He said... “You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8). 107 A.D.

Fallen Prophet Did you see it? just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church !
I never asked you to accept anything.. I just post the scriptures and FACTS! To make your statement you better produce the documents, until then all you have is accusation, innuendo and a wish!
The early Church was the one and ONLY Catholic Church! The Catholic Church ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread for salvation, she baptized babies, she heard confessions and removed sins! The Catholic Church has historic roots back to the Apostles she is Apostolic! Only the Catholic Church has AUTHORITY given her by Jesus in person, no others.
Jesus built his Church on ROCK not sand his Church will never fall!

 

[1213]

...A Nazarene is someone who comes from Nazareth, or who is a follower of the Nazarene aka Jesus of Nazareth.

Do you know why the town was called Nazareth?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

.
Hello once again... The Apostles & Church Fathers were all Catholics! Sure there was scriptures but no one knew what was INSPIRED scriptures until the Catholic Church make her book; the bible!
Ignatius is the first to use the word catholic in reference to the Church. He said... “You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8). 107 A.D.

Fallen Prophet Did you see it? just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church !
I never asked you to accept anything.. I just post the scriptures and FACTS! To make your statement you better produce the documents, until then all you have is accusation, innuendo and a wish!
The early Church was the one and ONLY Catholic Church! The Catholic Church ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread for salvation, she baptized babies, she heard confessions and removed sins! The Catholic Church has historic roots back to the Apostles she is Apostolic! Only the Catholic Church has AUTHORITY given her by Jesus in person, no others.
Jesus built his Church on ROCK not sand his Church will never fall!

Sorry - I can't accept it.

The original Church of Christ referenced books of scripture that the Catholic Church later decided to reject.

There is no Biblical evidence of bread becoming flesh, babies being baptized and confessions to men to be forgiven of sin.