Animals Can Be Giant Jerks

[DreadFish]

To answer the question in the OP, it doesn't really change my view of things and I don't think the term "evil" has much value beyond describing an extreme of cruelty and ill will.

I can't know the machinations going on in the minds of other animals that do these things, so I can't really judge the quality of their actions. Whatever is the motivating factor, I think it could be said that they are simply acting on impulses, whether those impulses are instinctive or emotionally based. I think that, because humans have the ability to plan and reason things through, we think that our motivations are more than mere impulse, but I think that maybe many actions, cruel or good willed, are often simply responses to an impulse of some kind, even if planned and thought through, simply an effort to fulfill an impulse of some kind. Even willful malice can just be a response to an impulse. We are often blinded by impulses, I think.

But I think that, with more developed people, there is more than impulse that goes into behavior. EDIT: I guess that, through my current worldview, it is simply a delusion of separation that is the basis for these kinds of actions.

I dont think I have any ground to judge the whether killing and eating a baby is worse than raping another animal to death.

 

[Treks]

If I believed in the Abrahamic God then I'd have some serious questions and probably feel highly conflicted.
But I don't, and so when I learn about the depravity in the world, it does not much influence my beliefs/perspective.

Assuming you are from the dharmic side of the fence, how to you understand, or put into context, the subject of this thread, within your worldview?

If you're not "dharmic", please ignore my question.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

To answer the question in the OP, it doesn't really change my view of things and I don't think the term "evil" has much value beyond describing an extreme of cruelty and ill will.

I can't know the machinations going on in the minds of other animals that do these things, so I can't really judge the quality of their actions. Whatever is the motivating factor, I think it could be said that they are simply acting on impulses, whether those impulses are instinctive or emotionally based. I think that, because humans have the ability to plan and reason things through, we think that our motivations are more than mere impulse, but I think that maybe many actions, cruel or good willed, are often simply responses to an impulse of some kind, even if planned and thought through, simply an effort to fulfill an impulse of some kind. Even willful malice can just be a response to an impulse. We are often blinded by impulses, I think.

But I think that, with more developed people, there is more than impulse that goes into behavior. EDIT: I guess that, through my current worldview, it is simply a delusion of separation that is the basis for these kinds of actions.

I dont think I have any ground to judge the whether killing and eating a baby is worse than raping another animal to death.

So what compelled you to say that?

 

[Madhuri]

Assuming you are from the dharmic side of the fence, how to you understand, or put into context, the subject of this thread, within your worldview?

Yes, I am Dharmic.
This material existence is characterised by low (quality) consciousness and high ignorance. The material nature is also composed of the three modes of nature: goodness, passion and ignorance.

The purpose of life in the material reality is to move from Ignorance into Knowledge. It is a very long journey that begins by being born into bodies of the lowest consciousness- this includes plant and animal bodies.

"When one dies in the mode of passion, he takes birth among those engaged in fruitive activities; and when he dies in the mode of ignorance, he takes birth in the animal kingdom." BG, 14:15

Animals are mostly in the mode of ignorance. Ignorance is characterised by indulgence, sleep, madness etc.

The ignorant, whether human or non-human animal, are capable of the most horrendous activity. The ignorant are generally not fully aware of the consequences of their actions. They are not wise. They are selfish. They act to please their immediate needs/desires. They are not empathetic.

As we journey through each life, our Knowledge increases. It takes a very long time, but eventually the scales tip and our Knowledge outweighs our ignorance. This is when we begin to see signs of selfless action, of thoughtfulness, the desire for self improvement and the desire to create and heal rather than harm and destroy.

Our goal is to reach Enlightenment/Realisation- the complete elimination of Ignorance.

One really important point to understand from the mainstream Hindu perspectives in that 'creation' is not separate from God. Whether from a pantheistic or panentheistic perspective, this material universe is the manifestation of an aspect of God. It can be viewed as God re-discovering his own nature through us (we being part and parcel of God).

So rather than viewing God as a distinct and separate figure who one day decided to get creative and thought he'd like to see a world of chaos and suffering for whatever reason, my perspective is that the material nature, as a small aspect of God, is eternally in existence, with its own eternal and unchangeable nature. God does not one day create souls and throw them into the chaos- these souls are God (well, a small aspect among an infinite amount of aspects). And here we experience our own chaos, our own harmony, our own darkness and our own bliss. Until we remember eventually that this is all an illusion.

 

[Madhuri]

Lol, answering questions from a Hindu perspective is never very simple. I had to leave out so much. I think I could write a book just on this one question!

 

[Treks]

Thanks for taking the time to explain it, anyway

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I once heard of a guy who studied dolphins and had come to really dislike them because of their behaviour.

 

[DreadFish]

So what compelled you to say that?

Aha, good question, lol. I know I am definitely not above impulses. Im not sure how to answer this fully without opening a really deep analysis; maybe it's a good thread for the philosophy sub-forum. So, in a lengthy nutshell:

I think that there were feelings that I heeded and, in turn, put into words. Those feelings were in apparently automatic response to the content I read in the link and the thread. I read this, these feelings arise, I (try to) put these feelings into words because I want to. That want is an impulse based on other impulses like the desire to share my opinion/have my opinion heard by others which could be based in my desire to appear intelligent or to put someone else off etc., and those are based on others. It seems like there's a pretty complex web of interactions that goes into these decisions. I think, on first glance, these impulses we are talking about seem to be based on a feeling which solicits appropriate thoughts and actions that fulfill that feeling, i.e. seeking gratification according to the interpretation of the situation. I can't find any complete autonomy anywhere in my mental processes, everything is dependent on some other element; then I guess it all comes down to some part of awareness making a choice and I dont know much about that awareness or whether it's influenced by impulses and other conditions too or not

 

[Tumah]

This short article Animals can be giant jerks | I ******* Love Science talks about some things that some animals do which aren't in line with most human ethical standards; kidnapping, rape, ransom, necrophilia.

How does this article make you feel about the world, and your Creator (if you're religious)?
Does it suggest an 'evil' presence in the world?
Does it reaffirm your atheism (if you're non-religious)?
Do you think that it's one thing for an animal to kill and eat a baby animal, but something else entirely to rape it to death?
Do you think the animals who engage in some of these practices are being willfully malicious? Or they just can't help it?

And anything else you'd like to say.

My understanding in Judaism, is that Man was created with aspects of the entire creation and this causes him to have the ability to affect the entire creation. Animals are predatory, because we are predatory. Animals violate each other, because we violate each other.

When we become peaceful beings, then the animal kingdom will also live in peace.

 

[DreadFish]

My understanding in Judaism, is that Man was created with aspects of the entire creation and this causes him to have the ability to affect the entire creation. Animals are predatory, because we are predatory. Animals violate each other, because we violate each other.

When we become peaceful beings, then the animal kingdom will also live in peace.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I like.

 

[Thief]

I believe in the Abrahamic God and I don't feel highly conflicted. Maybe because I believe that God is an evil jerk. In fact I blame the depravity of the world on God.

If the animals and us humans are depraved then just look at who made them. The fruit does not fall far from the tree.

Ok...let's take a step in that direction.
Is he also the Almighty Creator?

 

[Erebus]

I once heard of a guy who studied dolphins and had come to really dislike them because of their behaviour.

I've heard the same thing from people who study various primates. It seems to me that as intelligence increases in an animal so does its capacity for outright cruelty. The difficulty of course is trying to distinguish between sadism and instinct, it's not as thought animals can explain to us precisely why they did something.*

Regarding the OP, all this does is reaffirm my belief that nature (and the gods by extension) is multifaceted. It would be wrong to describe it as benevolent or malevolent, instead it simply is.

*Although to be fair the same can be said about most humans. It's not often somebody can objectively analyze their own behaviour, particularly when they're angry or stressed.

 

[Amechania]

My understanding in Judaism, is that Man was created with aspects of the entire creation and this causes him to have the ability to affect the entire creation. Animals are predatory, because we are predatory. Animals violate each other, because we violate each other.

When we become peaceful beings, then the animal kingdom will also live in peace.

So when man beats his sword into a plowshare, leopards will trade in their spots for something paisley?

 

[Tumah]

So when man beats his sword into a plowshare, leopards will trade in their spots for something paisley?

Well maybe not their spots, but maybe their canines for something a little flatter.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Ok...let's take a step in that direction.
Is he also the Almighty Creator?

He is the creator. What of it?

 

[Nakosis]

Not sure we can judge the animal world with our standards. I mean we can but it's humans that have the ability to rise above and conquer their animal nature.

Ethical standards are for us humans. Assuming God is an omnipotent being, any ethics or standards wouldn't apply.

So yeah we can look at the rest of the universe and criticize it according to one ethical standard or another, but it really serves no purpose as ethics is something that sets us humans, and perhaps other intelligent beings if they exist, apart from the rest of the universe.

 

[Alceste]

It doesn't impact my beliefs. I don't subscribe to any ideology that differentiates between homo sapiens and the rest of the animal kingdom, so I would expect to see various sadistic behaviors humans sometimes enjoy in a wide variety of other mammals. I don't think value judgments are useful, but I understand exactly why these behaviors are distasteful, biologically speaking.

 

[Nakosis]

I believe in the Abrahamic God and I don't feel highly conflicted. Maybe because I believe that God is an evil jerk. In fact I blame the depravity of the world on God.

If the animals and us humans are depraved then just look at who made them. The fruit does not fall far from the tree.

Ok yes, as far as we are concerned, ( I do/did feel hurt and betrayed by what was done ) but what was done was necessary for my existence, such as it is.

It seems evil by our standards, but we would not be here with these standards otherwise.

I'm sorry if I am assuming too much about your beliefs, but I think it is necessary at some point that we forgive the Creator.

 

[Treks]

It doesn't impact my beliefs. I don't subscribe to any ideology that differentiates between homo sapiens and the rest of the animal kingdom, so I would expect to see various sadistic behaviors humans sometimes enjoy in a wide variety of other mammals. I don't think value judgments are useful, but I understand exactly why these behaviors are distasteful, biologically speaking.

Alceste

Thanks for your input (and everyone else, of course). If I may ask, if there is no difference between homo sapiens and the rest of the animal kingdom (despite our apparent ability to be rational and our presumably "higher intelligence"), are value judgements about the behaviour of own species useful, or not, in your opinion?

Many thanks

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Alceste

Thanks for your input (and everyone else, of course). If I may ask, if there is no difference between homo sapiens and the rest of the animal kingdom (despite our apparent ability to be rational and our presumably "higher intelligence"), are value judgements about the behaviour of own species useful, or not, in your opinion?

Many thanks

They're useful when applied to humans in that we're social animals and some behaviors aren't conducive to maintaining a civil society. We can't have people raping, killing and stealing at will and have civilization at the same time. Simple as that.