Animals sacrificed do not take the punishment or pay the price for sins

[Soapy]

No, I do not read it unless I am looking for something because of a conversation I am having with a Christian.

I know what Christians believe, that Adam was the first man and Jesus was the Second and Last Adam.

The Apostle Paul tells us in his first letter to the church in Corinth, “The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven” (1 Corinthians 15:45-49).

What does it mean that Jesus is the second Adam / last Adam? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that Jesus is the second Adam / last Adam? In what ways is Jesus like, and not like, Adam?

www.gotquestions.org

I do not believe that Adam was the first man. Humans have existed a lot longer than 6,000 years, for at least 200,000 years.

I believe that Adam was the first Prophet of the Adamic Cycle of religion. I believe that Jesus was another Prophet who came during the Adamic Cycle of religion, but Jesus was not the last Prophet. Muhammad was the last Prophet in the Adamic Cycle of religion.

So you believe that Adam was sinless until he ate the apple and caused the fall of humanity?
I already know that is what Christians believe but I do not believe it.

I believe that Adam fell, but not because he ate an apple.

What Adam did, how he caused the fall of humanity:

“The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 123-124

What Christ did to save humanity:

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins”
Some Answered Questions, p. 125

So if you do not believe the Christian scriptures, why do you debate with Christian in this forum?

But here is another question:
Would you believe that IF there was a man born sinless and holy, who then fell from that glory by committing a mortal sin… the first man sinned…

And then another man was born sinless and holy - not from the uniting of sperm from a man (which brings sin: as of the human father so is the son) but by the enlivening of a lifeless body (the egg / seed of a woman) …

Then that man would he called ‘A second ADAM’ (a second sinless and holy man)?

It doesn’t matter about what YOU believe. I’m asking IF you WERE to believe the Christian SCRIPTURES … THEN would of make sense to class Jesus Christ as the Christian scriptures states?

 

[jimb]

You are showing YOUR ignorance here. Hebrew is written and read right to left. Try reading this verse from right to left. The clusters of English words below the Hebrew text are read left to right.

I am not the one who is "ignorant". As I said, you clearly know nothing about translation. Words and phrases must be translated IN CONTEXT.

BTW, I am a Jew and know that Hebrew is written and read right-to-left. I also, unlike yourself, know that incorrect translation is often obvious, as is the case here. It should be clear to anyone that buildings do not sin and therefore don't require atonement.

 

[Trailblazer]

So if you do not believe the Christian scriptures, why do you debate with Christian in this forum?

If I agreed with everyone what would there be to debate about?
I believe some but not all of what is in the Bible.

But here are some other questions:

Why do so many Christians debate with other Christians IF the Bible is so clear, as some Christians claim it is?
Why isn't my interpretation of the scriptures as good as any Christian interpretation?

Much of what Christians believe is not coming from a correct interpretation of the Bible, it is coming from man-made Christian doctrines such as the Trinity doctrine.

But here is another question:
Would you believe that IF there was a man born sinless and holy, who then fell from that glory by committing a mortal sin… the first man sinned…

Yes, I would believe that, and I also believe that is what Adam did, although I do not believe that Adam was the first man who ever lived.

And then another man was born sinless and holy - not from the uniting of sperm from a man (which brings sin: as of the human father so is the son) but by the enlivening of a lifeless body (the egg / seed of a woman) …

Then that man would he called ‘A second ADAM’ (a second sinless and holy man)?

I believe that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit since Baha'is believe in the virgin birth.

1637. Christ, Virgin Birth of

"First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In light of what Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."

(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

I believe that Jesus was sinless because he was a Manifestation of God, who perfectly reflected God's attributes and God's will, not because He was born of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that Jesus was holy, as I believe only God is holy.

It doesn’t matter about what YOU believe. I’m asking IF you WERE to believe the Christian SCRIPTURES … THEN would of make sense to class Jesus Christ as the Christian scriptures states?

If the Bible is calling Jesus the Second Adam, that would mean that Jesus was the first one who came after Adam who was sinless and holy.
I do not believe that since I believe there were other Manifestations of God such as Moses who came after Adam and before Jesus who were also sinless.

If the Bible is calling Jesus the Last Adam, I do not believe that, since I believe there have been other Manifestations of God since Jesus, and I believe that Manifestations of God will continue to be sent by God as long as mankind exists on earth.

 

[Soapy]

If I agreed with everyone what would there be to debate about?
I believe some but not all of what is in the Bible.

But here are some other questions:

Why do so many Christians debate with other Christians IF the Bible is so clear, as some Christians claim it is?
Why isn't my interpretation of the scriptures as good as any Christian interpretation?

The term ‘Christian’ is used and attributed to EVERYONE who preaches about Jesus Christ… irrespective of the exact ideology (etymology of belief). It is a completely generic term.

So what then occurs is a preface by SECT (or what sins call, ‘CULT’) which is the suffering ideologues WITHIN the belief in Jesus Christ.

So you might will see Catholicism, Protestism, Jehovah Witness, Baptist, Church of God, Church of England, Baha’i’ism, Christadelphian, Oneness Pentecostals / Apostolics, Unitarisnism… an endless plethora of ideologies which all claim to be the true ‘Christian’.

To understand the reality of what is going on you need to look to the Spiritual elements … that is to say, Satan being the current ruler of this world who knows that his time is short and will be destroyed as he stands condemned. His tactic is therefore to confuse the world by allowing the mis-belief in the ‘TRUTH’ of God and His Christ in as many ways as he can.

The many ways means that any discovery of the truth by any group will immediately be dispelled by any amount of other groups claiming their own truth… The idea of ‘Keep the truth unbalanced’. This is underlined by what is dimension in the scriptures in which it says:

• ‘God will send them a strong delusion such that they will believe the lie’

But note this: ‘God…’ does not do the sending of wrongful things. What the saying is (mistranslated) is that God ALLOWS wrongful things to occur IN ORDER to prove that His wah is the ONLY WAY.

Imagine a child (and I know this for real!) who is shown the right way to do a thing, But the child insists on doing his own way… Time and time after time the child is told what he is doing is wrong. The parent corrects the wrongful thing the child has done but the child continues to offend ‘the truth of the way of doing the thing’.
Eventually the parent ALLOWS the child to do the thing the wrongful way without correcting the wrong and let the child take the consequences … Is that fair??? Absolutely!

Note once again that the parent did not DO the harmful thing but allowed it to occur for the sake of teaching the child.

Much of what Christians believe is not coming from a correct interpretation of the Bible, it is coming from man-made Christian doctrines such as the Trinity doctrine.

Yes, that is true… but much of what YOU also believe is not coming from the scriptures… so ‘pot calling kettle, black!’.

It is easy to see that much of what TRINITY believing Christian’s say absolutely cannot be reconciled to the scriptures. This is also obvious from the fact that these - not only Trinitarians though they are the vast majority - do not answer many questions put to them but squirm away and deflect any response. It a simple point that THEY UNDERSTAND that they are violating the scriptures and therefore “Grieving the Spirit of Truth” but the ‘Strong Delusion’ means they cannot admit they are wrong.

Also, many, and I’m talking FEMALE…, Christians only SUPERFICIALLY study and understand the scriptures. They may attend church services, sing praises, read verses, say nice godly things… but in truth theg UNDERSTAND very little and are therefore extremely vulnerable, easily conned, completely led … by the pastor, vicar, priest, teacher WHOM THEY LIKE….. I have debated with many females and found them the most frustrating since all their responses border around, ‘That’s what I’ve been taught…’.
I don’t hesitate to say that I’d prefer if they had said, ‘That’s what I believe from the scriptures’. That says ITS THEIR UNDERSTANDING… rather than that which their ‘church Husband’ taught them… and which woman doesn’t hold to what her husband says?
This is not to say that men don’t hold to wrongful beliefs the same way but there is varied and in-depth arguments from them which can be shown to them without the ever present, ‘That’s what I’ve been taught’ response which is an empty response which means: “It doesn’t matter what you say to me, I’m still going to believe what I’ve been taught!’… No room for change… no room for applying truth to the hearers belief.

And finally, many people go to church only for the friendship they get. For the comradary, and there is fear in them if, hearing the truth elsewhere, it should ever occur to them to be persuaded that their present churches ideology is possibly false… Would they leave… leave their friends, in that church (Yes, it has been done. But how often?)

Yes, I would believe that, and I also believe that is what Adam did, although I do not believe that Adam was the first man who ever lived.

If you are debating JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN beliefs then there is no room for ‘Adam not being the first created human Being’.

I understand the idea that ‘A HUMAN’ … an upright, walking talking, Homo Sapien, might not be the first HUMANOID creature as archeological surveys show a kind of similar skeleton… BUT we’re such creatures (if the truly existed and not just made up by scientists to make believe that man is descend from apes) MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD… did they have spiritual understanding, where they aware of GOD? If not then they cannot be classed as ‘HUMAN BEINGS in the image of God’ regardeless of their skeletal form.

I believe that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit since Baha'is believe in the virgin birth.

1637. Christ, Virgin Birth of

"First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In light of what Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."

(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

I believe that Jesus was sinless because he was a Manifestation of God, who perfectly reflected God's attributes and God's will, not because He was born of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that Jesus was holy, as I believe only God is holy.

I do not recognise the term ‘Manifestation’ and so csnnog understand what it is supposed to mean. Maybe a created human being, as you say, who REFLECTED the glory of God… but the reflection was only openly recognised AT HIS BAPTISM at the river Jordan. Reflecting God’s glory would show throughout his life but no Jew in Bethlehem or Nazareth nor Egypt or anywhere SAW THE GLORY OF GOD… I’m not talking about the likes of Hannah, either, but in general as no one appears to have glorified him until the baptism and the day he said, ‘Tgis day that prophesy (of the coming Christ) is fulfilled in me!!’… and then they tried to stone him and push him over a cliff!!!!!

If the Bible is calling Jesus the Second Adam, that would mean that Jesus was the first one who came after Adam who was sinless and holy.
I do not believe that since I believe there were other Manifestations of God such as Moses who came after Adam and before Jesus who were also sinless.

Moses was NOT a ‘manifestation’ of God. No one ever said such a thing. You are only saying this as a way of provoking a deluded argument - you don’t really believe this! God used many men, prophets and priests, to prove Himsekf to mankind. He gave them PORTIONS OF and only TEMPORARY powers to act in His behalf …’act in ancient times’ but only in Jesus Christ did he give PERMANENT powers to do the same IN FULL.

If the Bible is calling Jesus the Last Adam, I do not believe that, since I believe there have been other Manifestations of God since Jesus, and I believe that Manifestations of God will continue to be sent by God as long as mankind exists on earth.

Have you got any examples you can share with us of ‘Manifestations’ of God since Jesus Christ?

 

[Trailblazer]

The term ‘Christian’ is used and attributed to EVERYONE who preaches about Jesus Christ… irrespective of the exact ideology (etymology of belief). It is a completely generic term.

So what then occurs is a preface by SECT (or what sins call, ‘CULT’) which is the suffering ideologues WITHIN the belief in Jesus Christ.

So you might will see Catholicism, Protestism, Jehovah Witness, Baptist, Church of God, Church of England, Baha’i’ism, Christadelphian, Oneness Pentecostals / Apostolics, Unitarisnism… an endless plethora of ideologies which all claim to be the true ‘Christian’.

You are correct about the other sects you mentioned, but Baha'is do not claim to be Christians.
Yes, we believe in Jesus Christ, but so do Muslims, yet they are not Christians.

To understand the reality of what is going on you need to look to the Spiritual elements … that is to say, Satan being the current ruler of this world who knows that his time is short and will be destroyed as he stands condemned. His tactic is therefore to confuse the world by allowing the mis-belief in the ‘TRUTH’ of God and His Christ in as many ways as he can.

Baha'is do not believe in an entity called Satan who is external to the self.. This is what we believe about Satan:

“God is loving to all. Shall we be unjust or unkind to anyone? Is this allowable in the sight of God? God provides for all. Is it befitting for us to prevent the flow of His merciful provisions for mankind? God has created all in His image and likeness. Shall we manifest hatred for His creatures and servants? This would be contrary to the will of God and according to the will of Satan, by which we mean the natural inclinations of the lower nature. “This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan—the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.”
The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 287

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

The Evil One, which is symbolized by Satan, is the lower nature of man, which is waiting to entrap us, if our thoughts are centered on our own selves, rather than on the Well-Beloved, which is God.

“Say: O people! The Lamp of God is burning; take heed, lest the fierce winds of your disobedience extinguish its light. Now is the time to arise and magnify the Lord, your God. Strive not after bodily comforts, and keep your heart pure and stainless. The Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the one true God, deliver yourselves from the darkness that surroundeth you. Center your thoughts in the Well-Beloved, rather than in your own selves.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 167-168

The many ways means that any discovery of the truth by any group will immediately be dispelled by any amount of other groups claiming their own truth… The idea of ‘Keep the truth unbalanced’. This is underlined by what is dimension in the scriptures in which it says:

• ‘God will send them a strong delusion such that they will believe the lie’

But note this: ‘God…’ does not do the sending of wrongful things. What the saying is (mistranslated) is that God ALLOWS wrongful things to occur IN ORDER to prove that His way is the ONLY WAY.

I agree that God does not send wrongful things. God ALLOWS wrongful things to occur IN ORDER to prove that His way is the ONLY WAY.

If you are debating JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN beliefs then there is no room for ‘Adam not being the first created human Being’.

I understand the idea that ‘A HUMAN’ … an upright, walking talking, Homo Sapien, might not be the first HUMANOID creature as archeological surveys show a kind of similar skeleton… BUT we’re such creatures (if the truly existed and not just made up by scientists to make believe that man is descend from apes) MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD… did they have spiritual understanding, where they aware of GOD? If not then they cannot be classed as ‘HUMAN BEINGS in the image of God’ regardeless of their skeletal form.

I believe that humans evolved over the course of time, so I don't believe in creationism.

I do not recognise the term ‘Manifestation’ and so csnnog understand what it is supposed to mean. Maybe a created human being, as you say, who REFLECTED the glory of God… but the reflection was only openly recognised AT HIS BAPTISM at the river Jordan. Reflecting God’s glory would show throughout his life but no Jew in Bethlehem or Nazareth nor Egypt or anywhere SAW THE GLORY OF GOD… I’m not talking about the likes of Hannah, either, but in general as no one appears to have glorified him until the baptism and the day he said, ‘Tgis day that prophesy (of the coming Christ) is fulfilled in me!!’… and then they tried to stone him and push him over a cliff!!!!!

All of the Manifestations of God have three stations. Ordinary human beings have the first two stations, but only Manifestations of God have the third station.

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.

The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.

The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.................

The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning.”

Some Answered Questions, pp. 151-152

Moses was NOT a ‘manifestation’ of God. No one ever said such a thing. You are only saying this as a way of provoking a deluded argument - you don’t really believe this! God used many men, prophets and priests, to prove Himsekf to mankind. He gave them PORTIONS OF and only TEMPORARY powers to act in His behalf …’act in ancient times’ but only in Jesus Christ did he give PERMANENT powers to do the same IN FULL.

I believe that Moses was a Prophet, a Messenger of God, and a Manifestation of God, just as Jesus was. What made them Manifestations of God were their twofold natures. The passage below explains what I believe about the Manifestations of God.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

Have you got any examples you can share with us of ‘Manifestations’ of God since Jesus Christ?

Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah.

 

[Soapy]

You are correct about the other sects you mentioned, but Baha'is do not claim to be Christians.
Yes, we believe in Jesus Christ, but so do Muslims, yet they are not Christians.

Baha'is do not believe in an entity called Satan who is external to the self.. This is what we believe about Satan:

“God is loving to all. Shall we be unjust or unkind to anyone? Is this allowable in the sight of God? God provides for all. Is it befitting for us to prevent the flow of His merciful provisions for mankind? God has created all in His image and likeness. Shall we manifest hatred for His creatures and servants? This would be contrary to the will of God and according to the will of Satan, by which we mean the natural inclinations of the lower nature. “This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan—the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.”
The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 287

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

The Evil One, which is symbolized by Satan, is the lower nature of man, which is waiting to entrap us, if our thoughts are centered on our own selves, rather than on the Well-Beloved, which is God.

“Say: O people! The Lamp of God is burning; take heed, lest the fierce winds of your disobedience extinguish its light. Now is the time to arise and magnify the Lord, your God. Strive not after bodily comforts, and keep your heart pure and stainless. The Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the one true God, deliver yourselves from the darkness that surroundeth you. Center your thoughts in the Well-Beloved, rather than in your own selves.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 167-168

I agree that God does not send wrongful things. God ALLOWS wrongful things to occur IN ORDER to prove that His way is the ONLY WAY.

I believe that humans evolved over the course of time, so I don't believe in creationism.

All of the Manifestations of God have three stations. Ordinary human beings have the first two stations, but only Manifestations of God have the third station.

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.

The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.

The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.................

The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning.”

Some Answered Questions, pp. 151-152

I believe that Moses was a Prophet, a Messenger of God, and a Manifestation of God, just as Jesus was. What made them Manifestations of God were their twofold natures. The passage below explains what I believe about the Manifestations of God.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah.

We are debating different beliefs which have no realisation of unity with each other.

I am here for Christian debates but you readily state you are not a Christian (even as you say you believe in Jesus CHRIST. ‘Christ’ from where the open term ‘Christian’ is derived, though it fully means ‘Follower OF Christ’.

Sorry, but I see no point in continuing what is now clear as a unresolvable debate. The forum is against prostelysation which would mean one or other of us changing our GODLY belief.

I’m sorry that I didn’t know what Baha’i was about a long time ago so we wouldn’t have had this debate.