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Another Christian Dilemma

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
The only reason Jesus existed was that it was a way for God to go to hell. Once he went to hell, and rose up, and went to heaven, he essentially 'cleared a new path' that did not exist before.

Nobody went to heaven prior...

Because we needed a super-human to break the chains that bound us to hades. God didn't need a son. We needed him to have a son. That was human.

We didn't need any of this. Or, rather, we wouldn't need it if your all-powerful god had bothered to just wave his hands and, with a thought, free us from the sin he condemned us to.

The omnipotent nature of the Christian god renders the Jesus story pointlessly convoluted.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Do I really need to point out the difference between an amoeba and a human? Why even talk about appearance? Granted, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But what about cognitive power? How many amoeba authors have made it on the best seller's list lately?

What's her name who wrote Twilight again?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Considering scientific evidence states that the universe is expanding infinitely (or to infinity) and considering there are perhaps billions of planets, God being the ruler of the universe why of all the planets that exist and the possible life forms that are more ancient than human beings why is God’s “only son” a human?

All things considered if we took a more logical approach at what is more likely than not, why would God choose a human and not some other life form like an amoeba? What is so important about being a human among all the possible creatures in the universe why choose a human being?

In regards the reality of Jesus being the 'Son of God' designation in Christianity:

A Baha'i perspective on Jesus as the 'Son of God'

In conclusion the 'Son of God' designation of Jesus is consistent with the underlying unity in all the Great Prophets or Manifestations of God.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
I don't think Agnostic-Theism fits into the theological aspect of Islam. Although I've made several comments of my affinity of Islamic thought and practice I'm none in the slightest sense although people continuously confuse me as I am, so I therefore gave up correcting people. But no, I am not.

Interesting, didn't realize that. I'm not a fan of Islam tho.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Rival brought up an interesting point!

It is not just a question for a savior to be human but an adversary who is a subordinate to his Creator knowingly fights his creator and knows he will lose. Either Satan is the most idiotic malevolent entity, or merely the avatar of stupidity. I always was curious why Satan would fight against someone who it knows will eventually defeat it. It's almost like giving a five year old boxing gloves to spar Mike Tyson.

Interesting points.....

But if you examine the events recorded in the Bible concerning this entity called "satan the devil" you will first of all notice that he has no name. These are descriptive titles explaining his fallen nature...literally "resistor" and "slanderer". Jesus even called him a murderer.

So why would a formerly faithful angel choose to rebel against the most powerful being in existence? Apparently it was because of jealousy and envy. He gave himself away when he tempted Jesus by offering him all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for one act of worship.....not continuing worship, but just that one time was enough.

He told the woman a lie in Eden...that she would "be like God" if she ate the forbidden fruit. In reality, by eating the fruit, she would make him into a god by obeying him. He was the one who wanted to "be like God", receiving worship from the only beings in existence who could see him as a god because they were lower, intelligent creatures.

You will also notice that satan did not challenge God's power, because he knew God could snuff out his existence instantly....so why did God let the rebels live? Because the devil challenged God's sovereign right to set reasonable limits for his human creation, who alone were made in his image....i.e. possessing his qualities and moral attributes. If God had simply eliminated the rebels, it would only have demonstrated that he is more powerful, which wasn't the issue. He allowed the rebels to live and to go on their merry way....without his interference because he knew that in the end, when all avenues to rule themselves independently had utterly failed, he could record all that failure in the annals of human history to set precedents that would last for all eternity to come.
Never again could a free willed creature (either angelic or human) oppose God's Universal Sovereignty.
In the Revelation, satan and his followers, both human and angelic are eliminated from existence, never to blight God's purpose again.

I also believe that the devil underestimated God's response in barring the way to the tree of life. His new found 'worshippers' would now die, just as God had said they would, and satan would have to constantly recruit more by the same means....lies and deceit.

As for why Jesus had to become a human......Gods law was "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life", denoting that an equivalent payment was necessary to satisfy God's perfect justice. What humans lost in Eden was perfect human life, what Jesus offered was his perfect life in exchange.

He is called the "Redeemer" because under Jewish law, a man could sell himself or a child into servitude in order to pay a debt. That situation would stand until the debt was paid.....but if a benefactor came along and paid the debt, the servant was free to go home.

Jesus is our "Redeemer", paying the debt that our forefather Adam left as the awful inheritance for all his children. In Matthew 18:23-35 Jesus gives an illustration of the size of the debt that our sin amounted to in God's eyes and compares it with a debt that we might owe to a fellow human. It gives us an idea of how big a debt Jesus sacrifice paid for.

That is how I have come to appreciate these questions.....
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
We didn't need any of this. Or, rather, we wouldn't need it if your all-powerful god had bothered to just wave his hands and, with a thought, free us from the sin he condemned us to.

The omnipotent nature of the Christian god renders the Jesus story pointlessly convoluted.

But even in your own Greek mythology, Hades, the brother of Zeus is the God of the underworld -where all souls go when they die. So it all seems to add up. Souls did seem to go down below, to a place we Christians and Jews call Hades or "Hell"... That is until we were set free from those chains by Jesus Christ.

Greek underworld - Wikipedia
 
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Cooky

Veteran Member
But God stepped out to get a pack of smokes and never game back. Not even a monthly support cheque.

Yet we live on planet where the probability of the elements all being perfectly alligned for life to exist millions of years straight, is one in a who knows how many trillion. Where even asteroids burst into flames and disintegrate before causing harm, and the natural cycles are all exactly perfect to a 'T'...

...Yet we call it coincidence and downplay our own magnificence, with our arts, and mathematical formulas.

God is all around us.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
But the idea that we need saving from an evil entity that a god created makes no sense. Why would your god create an entity he knew would challenge him and lose? That is ludicrous.

Its not really.....God did not create the devil (who was a spirit being without defect originally, but with free will.) The devil is self made....just as a murderer is not born, but is self-made by the abuse of free will.

Creating perfect humans with free will was a catalyst for the one who was beginning to envy what God was receiving. Satan was a "covering Cherub" (a spirit guardian that God had placed in a position of responsibility) in Eden.

Ezekiel 28: 13-17....
"In Eden, the garden of God you were; every precious stone was [set in] your covering;.....14 You were a cherub of great measure, that covers, and I gave that to you; you were on the mount of the sanctuary of God: you walked among stones of fire. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created until wrongdoing was found in you...... they filled you with violence and you sinned, and I shall cast you as profane from the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O covering cherub, from among the stones of fire......17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty; you destroyed your wisdom with your brightness; I have cast you upon the ground; I have set you before kings to gaze upon you."

Yechezkel - Ezekiel - Chapter 28


Satan was formerly a magnificent creature of high rank in heaven and he was appointed to a guardianship position over the new humans. He was right there observing what these humans were doing and he began to put his evil thoughts into action by planning a subtle attack. Up until that time, there is no mention of free will being tested in heaven....but now it would be tested to the limit in both angels and humans. The outcome, though painful, would create precedents of all time to come. No one will dare abuse their free will again because retribution will then be instantaneous.

All questions can be answered if you use the whole Bible......but first you have to know what it teaches.
 

Cacotopia

Let's go full Trottle
But, humans need God for an infinite number of reasons I suppose. But as I stated previously, isn't the underlying factor of Jesus' story according to Christianity the indirect result of making the human species the center of everything?


Not all of them, I bet there are a bunch out there that may believe but wish there wasn't a god. That is kind of interesting, are their any believers out there that wish they were atheist, but their conviction in belief is too strong, and they have anxiety because of their belief, I'm sure those kinds of people exist.
 

Earthling

David Henson
Considering scientific evidence states that the universe is expanding infinitely (or to infinity) and considering there are perhaps billions of planets, God being the ruler of the universe why of all the planets that exist and the possible life forms that are more ancient than human beings why is God’s “only son” a human?

All things considered if we took a more logical approach at what is more likely than not, why would God choose a human and not some other life form like an amoeba? What is so important about being a human among all the possible creatures in the universe why choose a human being?

God's son isn't human as such, he is a spirit creature. He came to earth briefly as Jesus, but before and afterwards he was / is in heaven in spirit form. He was created in the likeness of the creator, as we were. This is what makes us special. We weren't intended to die, for example, and some time in the future death will be removed because Jesus, as a human, paid the price of Adam's sin.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Considering scientific evidence states that the universe is expanding infinitely (or to infinity) and considering there are perhaps billions of planets, God being the ruler of the universe why of all the planets that exist and the possible life forms that are more ancient than human beings why is God’s “only son” a human?

All things considered if we took a more logical approach at what is more likely than not, why would God choose a human and not some other life form like an amoeba? What is so important about being a human among all the possible creatures in the universe why cho to seeose a human being?
I fail to see your argument. It had to be some life form. Looks like ee won the lottery. Good fortune that.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Yet we live on planet where the probability of the elements all being perfectly alligned for life to exist millions of years straight, is one in a who knows how many trillion. Where even asteroids burst into flames and disintegrate before causing harm, and the natural cycles are all exactly perfect to a 'T'...

...Yet we call it coincidence and downplay our own magnificence, with our arts, and mathematical formulas.

God is all around us.

...or life perfectly adapted itself to the planet, and continues to despite some pretty devastating conditions.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Considering scientific evidence states that the universe is expanding infinitely (or to infinity) and considering there are perhaps billions of planets, God being the ruler of the universe why of all the planets that exist and the possible life forms that are more ancient than human beings why is God’s “only son”

From "The Most Dangerous Book," by Alan Watts:

"In other words, the Gospel, or "good news" that Jesus was trying to convey, despite the limitations of his tradition, was that we are all sons of God. When he uses the terms I am (as in "Before Abraham was, I am") or Me (as in "No one comes to the Father but by Me"), he is intending to use them in the same way as Krishna in the Bhagavad-Gita :

He who sees Me everywhere and sees all in Me; I am not lost to him, nor is he lost to Me. The yogi who, established in oneness, worships Me abiding in all beings, lives in Me, whatever be his outward life."

The Bible: the world's most dangerous book, Alan Watts
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
...or life perfectly adapted itself to the planet, and continues to despite some pretty devastating conditions.

But there is nothing devastating here. Have you not been watching the series One Strange Rock? This place is amazing.

p15010177_b_v8_aa.jpg

one strange rock - Google Search
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
After the fall of Adam and Eve, all souls went to hades. There was no salvation.

...According to the bible, Jesus died on the cross so that he too could go to hades, but not to stay there, but to free the souls who were there, so that they could go to heaven. This is why Jesus is. It was his purpose. He opened the gates of heaven to mankind, and without him, we would all be doomed to hell for eternity.
If he's god, why couldn't have just said "let it be" and there be a way to Heaven without having his son tortured to death?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Yet we live on planet where the probability of the elements all being perfectly alligned for life to exist millions of years straight, is one in a who knows how many trillion. Where even asteroids burst into flames and disintegrate before causing harm, and the natural cycles are all exactly perfect to a 'T'...
We live in the middle of a cosmic game of billiards. There are tons of abnormalities that occur within in life (such as birth defects and cancer). The sun bombards us with damaging rays. Life is resilient, but there are too many problems for there to be a claim of perfection. And, also, not all asteroids break up and disintegrate. The dinosaurs were wiped out by one, after all.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
If he's god, why couldn't have just said "let it be" and there be a way to Heaven without having his son tortured to death?

But Jesus was both fully God and fully man. It's different than you suggest, as if some dad sent his kid off to be murdered... No, God did it himself in human form.

...That's kindness. Not malice.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
But Jesus was both fully God and fully man. It's different than you suggest, as if some dad sent his kid off to be murdered... No, God did it himself in human form.

...That's kindness. Not malice.
Then it's self-mutilation. It doesn't look any better when it's called a suicide mission. And the question still stands.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Then it's self-mutilation. It doesn't look any better when it's called a suicide mission. And the question still stands.
As to the question, I'll say that just because poetic justice isn't popular today, doesn't mean it wasn't before or that it won't be again.
The death of Jesus Christ represents mans willingness to love his brother more than himself, as well as it represents God's willingness to work with us, even with our sinful nature -it's mercy.

The resurection of Christ represents the glory of God and the ascention represents our eternal salvation.

It's a beautiful thing.
 
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