Another Trans Woman Wins Sports Competition

[Revoltingest]

The posts first paragraph speaks of "he" when they were a man.
The second speaks of "he" after they transistioned.

I thought so, but to verify it would've meant
investigation, about which I'm meh....
So I addressed the general case.

 

[Soandso]

I lose track of the history of their competition & sex
status at each stage. But I'd use "he" referring to
their male stage, & "she" after transition.

Complicated it is. In Chinese, pronouns
lack gender...."he" & "she" are both "ta".
But the language sux in other ways.
English is best, & will evolve as needed.

Same with Tagalog. The Filipinos/Filipinas I work with constantly mix up he and she when referring to someone in English, and their reaction when they catch themselves making that mistake is a lil comical for me tbh. Second languages are hard!

 

[Brian2]

So I just can't care about this when the same humans who are freaking out about "men" in women's sports and claim to be pro-woman by disallowing their participation are the same ilk violating basic human rights by passing forced birth (aka, state sanctioned slavery when pregnant) legislation. Sorry.

I would say that "the same ilk" is something that is in your imagination. Actually the concern is wider than that I think.
I would also say that injustice should not be ignored just because we think that the people who are pointing it out are guilty of injustices themselves.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Solution is simple....
Trans women compete along with cis women.
They each have their own category, so there
would be 2 1st place winners, 2 2nd place
winners, & so on.

This is why the issue needs to be treated as sports specific.
Your solution, for example, doesn't work for basketball.

I think there are a range of sensible solutions, just not one that will apply in all cases.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

So I just can't care about this when the same humans who are freaking out about "men" in women's sports and claim to be pro-woman by disallowing their participation are the same ilk violating basic human rights by passing forced birth (aka, state sanctioned slavery when pregnant) legislation. Sorry.

It's not that simple. But I would agree that there are people arguing on this issue who don't do so in good faith, and have little interest in women's rights apart from when it aligns with their existing ideals.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is why the issue needs to be treated as sports specific.
Your solution, for example, doesn't work for basketball.

Of course.
My solution applies to the context of the OP.

I think there are a range of sensible solutions, just not one that will apply in all cases.

Team sports would need
different, more complex rules.
I've not finalized mine yet.

 

[Debater Slayer]

This is why the issue needs to be treated as sports specific.
Your solution, for example, doesn't work for basketball.

I think there are a range of sensible solutions, just not one that will apply in all cases.

Yep. Chess is recognized as a sport by the IOC, but it doesn't benefit in any way from physical metrics of athletic performance. Separating trans women from cis women would be discriminatory and pointless there, unlike with some strength-based sports where biological differences are heavily consequential.

I see no simple or universal solution, and I certainly don't see blanket and unnuanced separation of trans and cis competitors as a universal solution for all sports either.

 

[Quintessence]

I would say that "the same ilk" is something that is in your imagination.

No it isn't. I can't muster that level of self-delusion. It's matter-of-fact that this is how it's gone in the politics of my state over the past year. The bigots passing anti-trans laws are the same bigots passing forced birth laws in our state legislature, with one or two exceptions. I think one of them actually had the sense to not support forced birth when that vote game down when I looked at the tally.

I would also say that injustice should not be ignored just because we think that the people who are pointing it out are guilty of injustices themselves.

Of course it doesn't, and the injustice needs to be an actual injustice. The targeting of trans people in this country is a modern day witch hunt. That's the injustice, not their participation in sports.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Of course.
My solution applies to the context of the OP.

Team sports would need
different, more complex rules.
I've not finalized mine yet.

Me either.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yep. Chess is recognized as a sport by the IOC, but it doesn't benefit in any way from physical metrics of athletic performance. Separating trans women from cis women would be discriminatory and pointless there, unlike with some strength-based sports where biological differences are heavily consequential.

Agreed. Motor sport, and equine sports are basically open in terms of gender, as more physical examples.

I see no simple or universal solution, and I certainly don't see blanket and unnuanced separation of trans and cis competitors as a universal solution for all sports either.

Agreed.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

No it isn't. I can't muster that level of self-delusion. It's matter-of-fact that this is how it's gone in the politics of my state over the past year. The bigots passing anti-trans laws are the same bigots passing forced birth laws in our state legislature, with one or two exceptions. I think one of them actually had the sense to not support forced birth when that vote game down when I looked at the tally.

Without talking too directly to this issue, it's worth noting that even countries which don't have patriarchal and religiously inspired pro-life laws are struggling with issues of trans inclusion in sports, and that it's one of the few realms where the inclusion of trans athletes can mean the exclusion of other athletes (nature of sports that it's a zero sum game at the elite level).

Of course it doesn't, and the injustice needs to be an actual injustice. The targeting of trans people in this country is a modern day witch hunt. That's the injustice, not their participation in sports.

And modern day witch hunts are actually a thing. As much as I think trans people are commonly treated poorly, and suffer needlessly from victimization, I've always hated the phrase 'modern day witch hunt', just because the actual witch hunts going on are basically erased.

*sighs*

Sorry, I realise my post isn't adding much to the discussion here in some ways. I've seen you (rightly) point out instances where people have acted like religion is equivalent to 'monotheism', and how sidelined other expressions of religion can be, and how unaddressed they can remain. I was torn between deciding this post was too petty to put up, or figuring someone might find it informative. Hopefully you can see it in terms of a healthy intent.

 

[Brian2]

No it isn't. I can't muster that level of self-delusion. It's matter-of-fact that this is how it's gone in the politics of my state over the past year. The bigots passing anti-trans laws are the same bigots passing forced birth laws in our state legislature, with one or two exceptions. I think one of them actually had the sense to not support forced birth when that vote game down when I looked at the tally.

You need to look further afield than your state.

Of course it doesn't, and the injustice needs to be an actual injustice. The targeting of trans people in this country is a modern day witch hunt. That's the injustice, not their participation in sports.

Be that as it may, there is more that injustice to trans women to consider. There is injustice against cis women which is being pointed out, and the answer imo is to be wise and consider all parties and not to just do whatever the vocal LGBTQI activists want.

 

[icehorse]

If they are doing unsportsmanlike conduct, or cis women are getting injured in the process and it's affecting their safety in the sport, is one thing to consider. However, I think allowing trans people to compete and with cis people has its benefits and could bring a new positivity and inclusiveness to the sport, even if some of the world isn't able to look past their personal biases right now on the "issue".

Women have been struggling for decades to participate in sports. Women's professional sports are still in the shadow of men's sports. Far less pay, less coverage, and so on. Every female collegiate or professional athlete is benefiting from decades of work by their predecessors to carve out a space for women to compete. These are women's rights that have been hard fought to be gained. These rights weren't there not too long ago.

Now you want to sacrifice all those gains so that a tiny handful of trans women can compete in female athletics? How on earth does that improve "positivity and inclusiveness".

I would strongly encourage anyone who agrees with Snow White to re-read (or probably read for the first time), The Vonnegut Story "Harrison Bergeron". He explains this slippery slope far better than I can.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Women have been struggling for decades to participate in sports. Women's professional sports are still in the shadow of men's sports. Far less pay, less coverage, and so on. Every female collegiate or professional athlete is benefiting from decades of work by their predecessors to carve out a space for women to compete. These are women's rights that have been hard fought to be gained. These rights weren't there not too long ago.

Now you want to sacrifice all those gains so that a tiny handful of trans women can compete in female athletics? How on earth does that improve "positivity and inclusiveness".

I would strongly encourage anyone who agrees with Snow White to re-read (or probably read for the first time), The Vonnegut Story "Harrison Bergeron". He explains this slippery slope far better than I can.

Honestly, I wouldn't really waste much time taking that book seriously and taking it as if it were "realistic non-fiction", especially for a self-proclaimed "liberal" like yourself.

But I do admit there are differences in how you and I think. You seem to not like the collective, or trusting "experts", much. You seem to romanticize the idea of a person using logic to god-like abilities but don't emphasize the importance of experience in a field, methods and frequency in testing, etc. If I had to hazard a guess, I would guess that you put much more emphasis on "human intellect" than I do - I prefer to see things in intelligences, emotional intelligences, end results and positive benefits, etc.

But as for the book / short story, it seems to present an extreme, but if I recall, doesn't present good solutions to the extreme. It's an "either/or" book, when "either/or" doesn't always work real-world.

 

[icehorse]

But I do admit there are differences in how you and I think. You seem to not like the collective, or trusting "experts", much. You seem to romanticize the idea of a person using logic to god-like abilities but don't emphasize the importance of experience in a field, methods and frequency in testing, etc. If I had to hazard a guess, I would guess that you put much more emphasis on "human intellect" than I do - I prefer to see things in intelligences, emotional intelligences, end results and positive benefits, etc

A couple of thoughts:

- Humans are incredibly easy to manipulate. We are all susceptible to bias. We are positively up to our eyeballs in propaganda from every direction.

- There is a replication crisis in many areas of science. We need to shift to meta-study analysis, and not base important decisions on a few studies.

- I place a high value on experts and expertise - it's more or less what my career is built upon.

- Given the toxic environment we all live in, I think we have to rely on logic, good faith, and common sense, and we have to question authority.

- I believe that most of what humans are good at is not under our conscious control. Our egos like to think they're in charge of everything, but the reality is our egos are mostly unskilled.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

- Humans are incredibly easy to manipulate. We are all susceptible to bias. We are positively up to our eyeballs in propaganda from every direction.

True. And things have only gotten worse with Russian disinformation campaigns, the rise of the far right, etc. It takes a lot of thought to find good sources on the internet, etc.

- Given the toxic environment we all live in, I think we have to rely on logic, good faith, and common sense, and we have to question authority.

Logic is good, but has its limits, as covered by others in your thread about how more people should use logic in debates on RF.

"Good faith" seems to be meaning to be honest and good. But such has its limits as a person, especially if not very well-trained on a subject, can still be mistaken.

"Common sense", I'm not sure what it's referring to exactly, but I noticed some people, especially on the Right, bring it up a lot.

Questioning authority has its limits. At some point, one must trust experts or fall into the slump of thinking the average layman can come up with the same level of precision and correctness as experts who have been through years and years of college, have done many tests, and have years of hands-on experience. In a field.

Our egos like to think they're in charge of everything, but the reality is our egos are mostly unskilled.

True. And I'd even take it a step further and say that the untrained brain, can at times, be "unskilled" and very "unwise" too.

 

[SomeRandom]

Wasn't quite sure where to put this in political debates...so it landed here.

The reason I am posting this thread is in all the bold text. If you cant beat the boys, go beat the girls. Yes that's my opinion and what I believe.

"Valentina Petrillo underwent a transition in 2019(at 44), changing his name and starting hormone replacement therapy. As a result, Petrillo began participating in women’s athletics, (paralympic women's competition) and breaking several Italian records along the way. Strikingly, Petrillo has won multiple women’s running championships but has never achieved the same level of success in the men’s division."

MSN

Good for them???
Should I care?
I say this as a cis woman. Women power!!!