Answered prayer or coincidence?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How are we supposed to know if something happens because it is answered prayer or just coincidence? So confusing.

The same way we figure out whether any hypothetical cause is the actual cause of some effect: controlled trials.

Figure out the rate at which your "something" happens without it being prayed for, then figure out the rate at which it happens when it's prayed for. If the two rates are so different that the difference can't be explained by random variation, then you'll know that the prayer has an effect.

Of course, you have to be careful to make sure that the only variable you're changing is the prayer and not anything that goes along with it (e.g. just having that "something" in your mind as a goal might lead you to it even if your prayer was ineffective).

 

[BilliardsBall]

How are we supposed to know if something happens because it is answered prayer or just coincidence? So confusing.

Are you praying to a living god or an imaginary god?

What did you request of god, specifically, how did you request an answered prayer?

 

[Nimos]

The main problem with that is that there has never been a definitive hypothesis agreed by the proponents of this kind of prayer, setting out what actually needs to be done and what effects are predicted. When these experiments don’t work (or are conclusive), the believers can just say “You didn’t do it right” or “You can’t test God”.

Yeah agree, however have to agree I haven't looked much into these studies as its not something that interest me immensely. But I would assume that, at least the last study with the people with heart issue. Is done by looking at X number of people and randomly choosing some that are prayed for to see how the react. And most likely they have also told some that they were prayed for, even if they weren't etc.

But again, I am just guessing.

 

[HonestJoe]

Yeah agree, however have to agree I haven't looked much into these studies as its not something that interest me immensely. But I would assume that, at least the last study with the people with heart issue. Is done by looking at X number of people and randomly choosing some that are prayed for to see how the react. And most likely they have also told some that they were prayed for, even if they weren't etc.

Sure, but the main problem I’m talking about (among the many here) would be pray to who exactly, what is the “right” way to pray and the “right” things to pray for, etc.? Without that being definitively defined, the whole thing becomes pointless.

It's like an experiment to test the effect of diet by just telling some people to "eat healthily" without defining exactly what that is meant to mean.

 

[Nimos]

Sure, but the main problem I’m talking about (among the many here) would be pray to who exactly, what is the “right” way to pray and the “right” things to pray for, etc.? Without that being definitively defined, the whole thing becomes pointless.

It's like an experiment to test the effect of diet by just telling some people to "eat healthily" without defining exactly what that is meant to mean.

Agree

 

[Left Coast]

The same way we figure out whether any hypothetical cause is the actual cause of some effect: controlled trials.

Figure out the rate at which your "something" happens without it being prayed for, then figure out the rate at which it happens when it's prayed for. If the two rates are so different that the difference can't be explained by random variation, then you'll know that the prayer has an effect.

Of course, you have to be careful to make sure that the only variable you're changing is the prayer and not anything that goes along with it (e.g. just having that "something" in your mind as a goal might lead you to it even if your prayer was ineffective).

This would hypothetically tell us if prayer is effective, but it wouldn't tell us why. Prayer could be effective for some reason other than a supernatural deity granting wishes.

 

[Left Coast]

Are you praying to a living god or an imaginary god?

Which one(s) are living and which are imaginary? How can you tell?

What did you request of god, specifically, how did you request an answered prayer?

Is there a specific method that ensures a god will answer? What is it, and how can you tell?

 

[Trailblazer]

I think you're supposed to have "faith", which is the cunning theological route to evading this kind of difficult question.

Even if you had faith, you still could not know, even if you believed you knew.

 

[Milton Platt]

Someone on here said yearsss ago that coincedences are god's way of speaking to is.

With that in mind, answered prayers are an unusual amount of coincedences, de ja vu, luck, human nature (two love birds know each other's thoughts), and meditational results confirmed by practice and/or scripture.

It's both.

can you quantify "unusual amount"? Do you simply mean slightly outside the range of chance?

 

[Milton Platt]

How are we supposed to know if something happens because it is answered prayer or just coincidence? So confusing.

Tests (for intercessory prayer, at least) have shown it works at the same rate as chance.

 

[stvdv]

How are we supposed to know if something happens because it is answered prayer or just coincidence? So confusing.

I went to a Church and the priest was arrogantly bashing all other Religions, Humanism and Atheism (and anything in between, except their own cult ... that's how I call it now). I wrote the priest a very clear letter telling him: this was very disrespectful of you, bashing other religions etc., now if you meet with Jesus you can't say "I did not know, because stvdv told you so", and I told you a few times. After the letter he kept bashing even more than before.

Then with Christmas I really did not want to see him preaching, so I had a prayerful thought "there is a saying that goes 'pride comes before the fall', so this priest should fall big time IMHO". 1 second later I said, okay "God", that is not so nice of me to think in such a way, cancel that thought please (But then I continued and said maybe it is good anyway, then he receives his karma in this life. Maybe he learns something of it, and even he might change ... so God, you do whatever you feel is best. A few days later I heard, that this priest fell from his bike, very hard, and unable to give any sermons during Christmas till after New Year even.

I admit, I was very pleased to hear this news. Justice is done, God does exist and listens to my prayers

It was not a real prayer, because I cancelled it. So it was coincidence. This priest was destined to fall from his bike, and God just popped this knowledge/thought (in the form of a prayer) into my mind. The alternative would be "me being kind of clairvoyant". I think it's healthier to attribute this to God messing a bit with stvdv's thoughts.

It's quite easy for me to see whether it is "God" or not. I just have very specific prayers. And when they happen, then I know. But be very precise.

Note: "God" is something personal of course. And all have their own definition of "God". In this context "The Great unknown power energizing all actions etc".

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly, that have actually been made studies into the effect of prayers.

One review of past studies found that praying for someone else has small health benefits for the person being prayed for. Another showed no effect at all.

And one study suggests that prayer may make things worse. This study, published in 2006 in the American Heart Journal, found that people who knew that someone else was praying for their recovery from heart surgery had higher rates of complications than people who weren’t being prayed for.

So wouldn't one assume to see a somewhat improved effect of those being prayed for compared to those which are not? To me it seems that either people are praying wrong or that they simply have no effect, or maybe God is on a break

God is not on a break, God is always on duty, Imo.
I believe that God hears all our prayers, but only answers the ones He chooses to answer.

I believe that God wants what is in our best interest, so we have to assume (if we are a believer) that whatever happens is in our best interest in the long run; although it might not seem like that at the time, that is just our human ego that thinks it knows more than an All-Knowing God, which is logically impossible, if such a God exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

You could not likely know. Your retirement is a personal issue considering your health, financial situation, and personal relationships. My view is that retirement would give you an opportunity to serve humanity in many personal ways.

Thanks. I think I will know when the time comes that it is the time.
I never plan anything ahead, I mean never. I live one day at a time.

 

[QuestioningMind]

How are we supposed to know if something happens because it is answered prayer or just coincidence? So confusing.

Extensive studies have been done and the results were quite clear. Sick people who were 'prayed for' had no better outcomes than people who were not 'prayed for'. The only exception was when patients were informed that they were being prayed for. In those cases the patients tended to have a slightly worse outcome... suggesting that they suffered from some sort of performance anxiety due to the pressure of knowing that people were praying for them. .

 

[Sand Dancer]

You're a pantheist, right? That means that you think divinity lies within and without, correct?

So if you prayed, wouldn't such an outcome, by default, be an answered prayer?

I don't think pantheists believe in a personal deity that answers prayer. It's more an impersonal universal force/ spirit.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Are you praying to a living god or an imaginary god?

What did you request of god, specifically, how did you request an answered prayer?

No god is more or false than any other. Whichever was listening I guess. My son got hit by a car and I told deity that I would believe in it if he was okay (well, at least not dead or gravely injured). He wasn't, so I feel obligated. Also, since leaving theism, things seem to have physically happened to me that didn't before. So confused...

 

[SalixIncendium]

I don't think pantheists believe in a personal deity that answers prayer. It's more an impersonal universal force/ spirit.

Right. It's also an "I am a part of that universal spirit."

So if you were to put a prayer out there into this impersonal universal force/spirit (which exists within you as well) for something and that something happened, wouldn't that be an answered prayer?

I pray for a specific job. I go out and apply for this job. I get called for an interview. I interview well and I'm hired on the spot. Boom! Prayer answered. Right?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

can you quantify "unusual amount"? Do you simply mean slightly outside the range of chance?

Yes. We usually say when the same incident happens once, it's a coincidence. Twice, de ja vu. The third time it depends on the person's belief. Some may attribute it to faith, god, or if they had say their parent passed, association that their family member is speaking to them.

Mysterious events or things humans can't explain are usually considered "A Higher Power" or "god knows" or give it to the universe.

I realize a lot of it has to do with trusting yourself. I know on RF many people call it being gullible but not all see it that way. Coincidences can be answer to prayers and you can attribute personal miraculous events to pretty much anything or anyone you feel comfortable. It's harder for skeptics to do this than indoctrinates but I think the idea is the same for both.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Right. It's also an "I am a part of that universal spirit."

So if you were to put a prayer out there into this impersonal universal force/spirit (which exists within you as well) for something and that something happened, wouldn't that be an answered prayer?

I pray for a specific job. I go out and apply for this job. I get called for an interview. I interview well and I'm hired on the spot. Boom! Prayer answered. Right?

What is the purpose of the prayer? Who listens?

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't think pantheists believe in a personal deity that answers prayer. It's more an impersonal universal force/ spirit.

This would be more of a Deist belief not pantheism. In pantheism the physical existence itself is the Deity.