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Answered Prayers

Dao Hao Now

Active Member
Big deal if it is No True Scotsman.
Precisely.
Thus the summation of being emotionally tied to it not being so.
Who, but someone emotionally invested would so vehemently deny the trivially obvious?

I find it important to often step back and look at things from different points of view.
Both opposing and neutral and try to recognize if I have an emotional attachment that is preventing me from doing so.
And, if so, try to determine if that emotional attachment is warranted.
This has served me well through the years and I often recommend it for others to try with the hope that it will serve them as well.

I appreciate if someone points out a flaw in my reasoning, so I can then correct that flaw moving forward.

Recognizing a fallacy (whether formal or informal) helps to better organize a chain of thought or prevent a flaw in logical reasoning that often leads one down a path to faulty rationale.
If emotions can be overcome, this leaves us with the ability to change our mind if warranted.

Therein lies the “big deal”.
 

Dao Hao Now

Active Member
No it is clear and precise from Baha'u'llahto Abdul'baha we have this from the "Book of the Covernant".

"The Will of the divine Testator is this: It is incumbent upon the Aghsán, the Afnán and My Kindred to turn, one and all, their faces towards the Most Mighty Branch. Consider that which We have revealed in Our Most Holy Book: 'When the ocean of My presence hath ebbed and the Book of My Revelation is ended, turn your faces toward Him Whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this Ancient Root.' The object of this sacred verse is none other except the Most Mighty Branch [ʻAbdu'l-Bahá]. Thus have We graciously revealed unto you Our potent Will, and I am verily the Gracious, the All-Powerful. Verily God hath ordained the station of the Greater Branch [Muḥammad ʻAlí] to be beneath that of the Most Great Branch [ʻAbdu'l-Bahá]. He is in truth the Ordainer, the All-Wise. We have chosen 'the Greater' after 'the Most Great', as decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed."

Then Abdul'baha appoints Shoghi Effendi clear and precise, with the Authority given to Shoghi Effendi.

There is no, absolutely no, wriggle room.

Regards Tony
Did you read past my first sentence?
If not please do so.

Then if you may have passed over post #147
give it a read.
While it wasn’t originally directed at you, and in that context phrases pertaining to what was said by @Trailblazer won’t apply specifically to you; however working with the presumption that you agree with her and her quotes, it remains pertinent when applied to you.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Conspiracy theories abound.
I'm not sure what you are calling a conspiracy theory. This is from "Baha'i Studies Review, Volume19 2013 article"
Titled "The 1893 Russian Publication of Baha'u'llah's Last Will and Testament: An academic attestation of Abdul-Baha's successorship"

It states, "The holograph of the Kitāb-i-‘Ahd contains a passage in the nature of a postscript praising Mīrzā Ākā Jān, directing the friends to show respect to him and expressing the hope that he join ‘Abdu’l-Bahā in upholding the standard of loyalty. The postscript was not included as part of the Will by ‘Abdu’l-Bahā when He circulated it during His lifetime, and this approach was continued by Shoghi Effendi. The House of Justice, likewise, has decided not to circulate it.168" PDF page 40

Source: https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/buck_ioannesyan_russian_will.pdf

If you check the Footnote 168 it cites, "168. Research Department, ‘The Kitāb-i-‘Ahd’, Memorandum to the Universal House of Justice Date (27 February 2013), enclosed in reply letter (same date) from the Universal House of Justice to Christopher Buck, transmitted by email, 3 March 2013."

So you see the academic appears to be citing a letter from the (Haifa Based) Universal House of Justice in which it openly acknowledges that Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice have concealed a portion of the Kitab-i-Ahd, although the Universal House of Justice wants to tell us who are critical thinkers what is in it without showing us and expects us to blindly trust them in my view - go figure.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm not sure what you are calling a conspiracy theory. This is from "Baha'i Studies Review, Volume19 2013 article"
Titled "The 1893 Russian Publication of Baha'u'llah's Last Will and Testament: An academic attestation of Abdul-Baha's successorship"

It states, "The holograph of the Kitāb-i-‘Ahd contains a passage in the nature of a postscript praising Mīrzā Ākā Jān, directing the friends to show respect to him and expressing the hope that he join ‘Abdu’l-Bahā in upholding the standard of loyalty. The postscript was not included as part of the Will by ‘Abdu’l-Bahā when He circulated it during His lifetime, and this approach was continued by Shoghi Effendi. The House of Justice, likewise, has decided not to circulate it.168" PDF page 40

Source: https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/buck_ioannesyan_russian_will.pdf

If you check the Footnote 168 it cites, "168. Research Department, ‘The Kitāb-i-‘Ahd’, Memorandum to the Universal House of Justice Date (27 February 2013), enclosed in reply letter (same date) from the Universal House of Justice to Christopher Buck, transmitted by email, 3 March 2013."

So you see the academic appears to be citing a letter from the (Haifa Based) Universal House of Justice in which it openly acknowledges that Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice have concealed a portion of the Kitab-i-Ahd, although the Universal House of Justice wants to tell us who are critical thinkers what is in it without showing us and expects us to blindly trust them in my view - go figure.
I have no dog in this fight. I will believe in Baha'u'llah no matter what, and that is all I really care about.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is no wriggle room at all. It is only a fabrication of those that do not accept the covenant because they want the power / influence / possessions, or for those that have little or no knowledge of the Written Documents and of all the sundry messages given by Baha'u'llah and Abdul' Baha on this topic.
If the Kitab-i-Ahd appoints Mirza Muhammad ʻAli after Abdul-Baha there is indeed no wiggle room (for you), what Abdul-Baha says is irrelevant to the Kitab-i-Ahd unless you can find some statement in it describing Abdul-Baha as "infallible" in my view.
 

Little Dragon

Well-Known Member
But if people do not possess that capacity they commit all kinds of heinous crimes.
Fear of God might prevent some people from committing crimes but it is certainly no panacea.
I think fear of what happens to very very bad people in prison. is a healthy thing to encourage, with such people.

If mainstream prisoners (non rapists non killers) find out that you're a child rapist or a murderer of women etc...then you will be executed and or tortured at the first opportunity, you will be forever living under the sword of Damocles, hoping the prison system, protects you at all times.

This is a fear I think that is utterly deserved. As harsh as that sounds.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
If someone prays for something and it happens(for whatever reason) they will say/may say "See! God is real. He listened and answered my prayer".

If your prayers aren't answered what then?

Does that make god not listening? Not real? Or?
The true purpose of prayer is not to get things but to become more virtuous and of upright character, more loving, more kind and of service to humanity. Here’s an example. God is not our servant and we shouldn’t approach Him as if He is supposed to give us everything we want. In prayer we must do something like the prayer below. If we obey this prayer we will be happy and joyful.

OGod! Refresh and gladden my spirit. Purify my heart. Illumine my powers. I lay all my affairs in Thy hand. Thou art my Guide and my Refuge. I will no longer be sorrowful and grieved; I will be a happy and joyful being. O God! I will no longer be full of anxiety, nor will I let trouble harass me. I will not dwell on the unpleasant things of life. (Baha’i)

O God! Thou art more friend to me than I am to myself. I dedicate myself to Thee, O Lord.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I was reading up on this concept: Covenant-breaker - Wikipedia
Most Covenant-breakers are involved in schismatic groups, but not always. For example, a Baháʼí who refuses to follow guidance on treatment of Covenant-breakers is at risk of being named one. One article[13] originally written for the Baháʼí Encyclopedia, characterized Covenant-breakers that have emerged in the course of Baháʼí history as belonging to one of four categories:

  1. Leadership challenge: These are persons who dispute the authority and legitimacy of the head of the religion and advance claims either for themselves or for another. The main examples of these are Mírzá Muhammad ʻAlí and Charles Mason Remey.
  2. Dissidence: Those who actively disagree with the policies and actions of the head of the faith without, however, advancing an alternative claim for leadership. This group consisted mostly of opponents of the Baháʼí administration such as Ruth White, Julia Lynch Olin and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab.
  3. Disobedience: Those who disobey certain direct instructions from the head of the religion. Mostly the instruction in question is to cease to associate with a Covenant-breaker. Examples of this type include most of the descendants of ʻAbdu'l-Bahá during Shoghi Effendi's time.
  4. Apostates who maliciously attack the Baháʼí Faith. Examples include Ávárih, Sobhi and Níkú.
From the Wikipedia article about Covenant-Breaking you referenced:

Covenant-breaking does not refer to attacks from non-Baháʼís or former Baháʼís.[12] Rather, it is in reference to internal campaigns of opposition where the Covenant-breaker is seen as challenging the unity of the Baháʼí Faith, causing internal division, or by claiming or supporting an alternate succession of authority or administrative structure. The central purpose of the covenant is to prevent schism and dissension.

As to 1, those two individuals named went against explicit written wills and testaments by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha about what the succession should be and tried to seize leadership themselves and cause a division in the Baha'i Faith. How can the Baha'is help bring about unity in the world when there are competing Baha'i sects? That is why these will and testaments were written in the first place. These individuals created nothing significant in disunifying Baha'is. There are no followers of Mirza Muhammad Ali today and very few of Charles Mason Remey, and of the latter there are more than one persons claiming to be the successor of him as the third Guardian. That Covenant-Breaking group itself is very small compared to the Baha'is following the Covenant, divided amongst themselves and confused, thus guaranteeing they will die out entirely at some point.

As to 2, Here's what Wikipedia says about Ruth White:

Ruth (Berkeley) White
was an early American Baháʼí who became known for challenging the Will and Testament of ʻAbdu'l-Bahá, one of the founding documents behind the Baháʼí administration. She was designated a Covenant-breaker by ʻAbdu'l-Bahá's successor, Shoghi Effendi.

White met ʻAbdu'l-Bahá in 1912 in America, and again in 1920 when she went on pilgrimage to Haifa.[1] When ʻAbdu'l-Bahá passed away in 1921, he left a will that designated Shoghi Effendi as the one that Baháʼís should turn to for guidance. It was this appointment that she opposed, and she went on to claim that the will was forged. Her claim was based in part on her belief that ʻAbdu'l-Bahá would never advocate for a hierarchy, much less the establishment of a "papacy".

During her time of opposition, White wrote several letters to the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baháʼís of the United States and Canada objecting to Shoghi Effendi and the idea of Spiritual Assemblies. She wrote a letter to the United States Postmaster General requesting that the National Spiritual Assembly not be allowed to use the mail system, and she also wrote to the High Commissioners for Palestine with complaints about Shoghi Effendi.

White hired a criminologist Charles Ainsworth Mitchell to review photocopies of the original Will and Testament of ʻAbdu'l-Bahá in an attempt to prove it was a forgery.[2] Neither White nor Mitchell could read Persian, and her claims of a forgery were not taken up by many other Baháʼís opposed to Shoghi Effendi, such as Ahmad Sohrab.[3][4][5]

White was designated a Covenant-breaker by Shoghi Effendi, and was excommunicated sometime after 1926 when the extent of her opposition became clear.

It seems to be true she did not create an alternate group herself, but a group claiming to be an alternate administration of Baha'is called the Free Baha'is came into being as a result of her deluded efforts. Shoghi Effendi recognized this and thus she was declared a Covenant-Breaker.

Sohrab is more complicated and he was not declared a Covenant-Breaker until 1939 though since 1921 he had not recognized Shoghi Effendi as the successor of Abdu'l-Baha from the beginning for no good reason at all. Basically he refused to allow oversight by the Administrative Order of one of the two organizations he created.

Ahmad Sohrab - Wikipedia

Julia Lynch Olin was in partnership with Sohrab in refusing oversight of the organization involved, and became a Covenant-Breaker in 1939 also.


3. Disobedience: Those who disobey certain direct instructions from the head of the religion. Mostly the instruction in question is to cease to associate with a Covenant-breaker. Examples of this type include most of the descendants of ʻAbdu'l-Bahá during Shoghi Effendi's time.

Most of the descendants of Abdu'l-Baha associated with followers of the half bother Mirza Muhammad Ali who tried to create an alternate competing administration, mostly relatives of the arch-breaker of the Covenant, even marrying into such relatives.

You might ask, why are you in danger of being declared a Covenant-Breaker if you do this? It is not easy to be be declared a Covenant-Breaker. There are people who try hard to reason with such people and work with them so they cease to be part of a alternate organization. If after a lot of such effort, it is seen to be of no avail, and they are declared Covenant-Breakers. Those who associate extensively with the exception of their association being part of their professional work and don't discuss who is the head the Faith with such people are in danger of becoming influenced negatively towards the head of the Baha'i Faith, and really have no chance of turning them back to recognizing the validly designated heads of the Baha'i Faith because learned individuals over a period of time tried to do that and failed. So not associating in friendship with Covenant-Breakers is an important principle of the Baha'i Faith to preserve the unity of the Baha'is as an organization.


4. Apostates who maliciously attack the Baháʼí Faith. Examples include Ávárih, Sobhi and Níkú.

I don't know exactly why they were declared Covenant-Breakers. This is an obscure corner to me. I'll just cite what Shoghi Effendi said in the Wikipedia article about Covenant-Breaking:

Shoghi Effendi wrote to the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada in 1957:

People who have withdrawn from the Cause because they no longer feel that they can support its Teachings and Institutions sincerely, are not Covenant-breakers -- they are non-Baháʼís and should just be treated as such. Only those who ally themselves actively with known enemies of the Faith who are Covenant-breakers, and who attack the Faith in the same spirit as these people, can be considered, themselves, to be Covenant-breakers.

I can only theorize that those individuals did "attack the Faith in the same spirit as these people" who are Covenant-Breakers and allied "themselves actively with known enemies of the Faith who are Covenant-breakers".

I trust those in charge of declaring justly someone as being a Covenant-Breaker. I don't expect anyone not a Baha'i to do so because they wouldn't recognize that God would not allow that to happen with such people as decide that.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
No, it is not like that.

Definition

Covenant-breaking does not refer to attacks from non-Baháʼís or former Baháʼís.[12] Rather, it is in reference to internal campaigns of opposition where the Covenant-breaker is seen as challenging the unity of the Baháʼí Faith, causing internal division, or by claiming or supporting an alternate succession of authority or administrative structure. The central purpose of the covenant is to prevent schism and dissension.[13]


Baha'is are individuals who define who they are and what they believe in their own way. Nobody gets to decide who is a "true Baha'i" and who is not.

There are central tenets of the Baha'i Faith that all Baha'is adhere to, and then there are many different teachings, but we do not all relate to those in the same way. These are our personal beliefs and they require no endorsement of some central authority. For example, Baha'u'llah wrote that God is All-Loving and I question that, but nobody is coming after me and excommunicating me from the Baha'i Faith for holding my own opinion.
I addressed his concerns in more detail. See Answered Prayers, which is just above this post, post #210.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
If that is the case then neither you or anyone else gets to decide these so-called "covenant breakers" are not true Baha'i.
Those in authority gets to do so, but as you are not a Baha'i, I don't expect you to see that those in authority won't do this unjustly. We who are not in a position to do that in the hierarchy don't get to say someone in a Covenant-Breaker unless the recognized authority did so. How can a Faith designed by Baha'u'llah to help bring abut unity in the world do so without a unified organization? If there are significant alternate Baha'i organizations, which there are not, the squabbling among Baha'i organizations without any clear designation in the Baha'i Writings as has been the case in previous religions would prevent unity among Baha'is as is the case with Christianity and Islam, for instance.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
The UHJ of Haifa is just a collection of 9 people. There is no context in which "Nobody gets to decide who is a true Baha'i" but a collection of 9 somebody's does in my view.
As you are not a Baha'i who recognizes the claim of Baha'u'llah, how could you reasonably see them in any other way? As Baha'is, we believe that guidance is "conferred" to the UHJ as promised by Baha'u'llah. As we see it, God can guide whoever He wants to.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Would those who you believe to be Covenant Breakers call themselves that? Or would they call themselves Baha'i?
They would call themselves Baha'i. But can they demonstrate they are in conformity to the Covenant is the question.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
is adjudicated by the Universal House of Justice
to be a “covenant breaker” and from that moment forward according to the majority opinion (which you obviously share)
is no longer a “staunch believer” and no longer a “learned Baha’i”……..correct?
It is not about being a "learned Baha'i" or a "staunch Baha'i", it is about rebelling against the Covenant. Those who do not understand that Covenant are not Covenant-Breakers. It is those whose understand the Covenant and rebel against it anyway who are Covenant-Breakers.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Most Covenant-breakers are involved in schismatic groups, but not always. For example, a Baháʼí who refuses to follow guidance on treatment of Covenant-breakers is at risk of being named one. One article[13] originally written for the Baháʼí Encyclopedia, characterized Covenant-breakers that have emerged in the course of Baháʼí history as belonging to one of four categories:

  1. Leadership challenge: These are persons who dispute the authority and legitimacy of the head of the religion and advance claims either for themselves or for another. The main examples of these are Mírzá Muhammad ʻAlí and Charles Mason Remey.
  2. Dissidence: Those who actively disagree with the policies and actions of the head of the faith without, however, advancing an alternative claim for leadership. This group consisted mostly of opponents of the Baháʼí administration such as Ruth White, Julia Lynch Olin and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab.
  3. Disobedience: Those who disobey certain direct instructions from the head of the religion. Mostly the instruction in question is to cease to associate with a Covenant-breaker. Examples of this type include most of the descendants of ʻAbdu'l-Bahá during Shoghi Effendi's time.
  4. Apostates who maliciously attack the Baháʼí Faith. Examples include Ávárih, Sobhi and Níkú.

This is all well and good, and as I mentioned earlier, the right to freedom of religion and freedom of association gives them every right to set up their own organization with whatever hierarchy and rules they deem in whatever way is acceptable to the membership. As with any such grouping of people, if there are those who don't work and play well with others, then they risk getting kicked out and shunned by the group.

It seems simple enough and straightforward enough, and it happens in organizations and religious bodies.

I'm not entirely sure how this directly addresses the point about the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. It's slightly different here, since Scotsman refers to a culture, and a "true Scotsman" is implied to be someone who follows certain cultural mores and traditions. The fallacy is that it doesn't take into consideration sub-cultures, variations, or the fact that some people just exercise their own choices and do whatever they want, regardless of whether others think it's "true" to their culture or not.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Surely you can manage to recognize that the once “staunch believer who was responsible of bringing many souls into the faith, who was known as a learned Baha’i” hadn’t changed his convictions and maintains the same “staunch belief” and is no less learned as he was before the adjudication by the UHJ and therefore still identifies as Baha’i…….yes?
He was learned and understood, but wanted authority for himself.
 
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