Answering Atheists

[The Kilted Heathen]

Atheists are folk who simply don't believe in any god. It's really as simple as that.

 

[People_Lack_Integrity]

To be clear, your post isn't actually an "atheist argument" at all. What it is, is a critique made against christianity specifically based upon scripture and tradition.

Second, it's about whether this character called "god" is actually moral or good. I would put it slightly different though. Put it this way....most normally moral people will help others in need. Let's take for example if we see someone being attacked. Usually people will spring into action and try to stop the fight, even if they don't know what started it or what's going on. Why do we do this? We know that the people can be harmed, but also that they could unintentionally harm someone else around them. We understand that what they are doing is harmful by experience and potentially life threatening, so we intervene to try to minimize the potential harm done by the fight by stopping it. We see a car accident, we stop to render aid. We see a house on fire, we run in to try and save the people inside. We have empathy as human beings and that empathy is what leads to this behavior. Most people will say as well that if we had the ability to stop a crime...let's say a rape, then we most certainly would. This is where moral accountability comes about, because we as humans do have laws in place for those that don't render aid, or watch a crime happen and do nothing to stop it. Yet, even though we judge those people as guilty for not stopping a crime and have punishments....christians are just fine with the concept of a god who watches a rape and does nothing to stop it. We are told that we as humans must be more moral and more accountable, than the god who is supposed to be the pinnacle of morality? Who supposedly is the law giver/maker...but doesn't follow it's own laws? We are told we must not only obey...but love, respect and worship the very same god who has the power to cure a cancer stricken child...or watches as a pedophile rapes a kid, or watches the torture of a human being...and sits arms crossed while saying "don't worry, I'll get you later when you die". We are also told that this same god, who invented a place of eternal torment, is just and good? Meanwhile the criteria for by which souls are judged is so screwed up?! To be clear the bible clearly states in 3 separate books that the only unforgiveable sin is denial of the holy spirit or denying god. So, while christians may take solace that the pedophile will go to hell...if the bible is right, they might actually end up in heaven. After all, in those 3 places, it says so long as they never denied god and begged forgiveness before they died, they will be forgiven. All sins WILL be forgiven. So that means also, horrifically that this supposed pinnacle of justice, good, morality, etc...cares more that you worship him, than he does for human suffering. So by the logic of the bible, for it's own words, you can be a horrible person your whole life, murdering, raping, stealing and so long as you never denied god and ask forgiveness in faith, you will go to heaven. Meanwhile a humble Hindu, who spent his whole life dedicated to helping the sick and needy, who alleviated the suffering of thousands....has his ticket already punched for hell, because he didn't believe in the right god. So the argument is a moral critique of the character of god and the fact that we as humans are more moral than the god we are supposed to praise and worship. That should cause any christian to pause and reflect on what they believe....but so often they don't, because faith is a comfort that comes with a price and that price is your base integrity.

 

[halbhh]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.
However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Why can God not exist (as a morally perfect entity, who is all powerful, all knowing and all wise), where evil exists, although God knows when evil existed, and although God wants to do something about it?
The argument is not a sound one.

Romans chapter 8 verses 20 and 21 says this... "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Allowing suffering for a permanently lasting freedom from corruption, seems pretty moral to me.
How can that not be moral?
It would actually be evidence too of one who is all knowing, all wise and all powerful. Isn't it?

Another aspect of the why, a key one, is given for this very question (this exact one!) by Christ Himself, in Matthew chapter 13, verses 24-30 and 36-43 (the latter being an explaining). I was just noticing a few days ago.
Matthew 13 NIV

 

[ecco]

So you don't believe rape or murder or anything else like that is evil? hmmm

e·vil
/ˈēvəl/
Learn to pronounce

adjective

1. profoundly immoral and wicked.
   "his evil deeds"
   

noun

1. profound immorality and wickedness, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
   "the world is stalked by relentless evil"

Atheists, at least me, consider "evil" to be an adjective. Many theists use it in the sense of a noun.

Some people commit evil acts like murder and rape. Moses condoned both.

However, the concept of "evil" hanging over the world like a dark shroud is something only believed in within the realm of the supernatural.

 

[ChristineM]

but we know God did not create ISIS bombs, or the atomic bomb, etc.,

How do you know this? Do you have a direct line to your gods office so you've asked him? Did he turn up in your bedroom one night and impart this information? Or is it another of those my god doesn't do the stuff i don't like scenarios?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Probably, but haven't you ever ridden you favorite roller coaster more than once? Or watched your favorite movie again?

I had to see Jackie Brown at least 5 times before I began to adjust to it's melancholy tone enough to understand it. Perhaps the same thing will happen with this thread?

 

[halbhh]

Another way of looking at the Problem of Evil:

Is the state of the world aligned with God's will?

- if yes, how does all the evil and suffering in the world reflect on God's will (and on God's character)?

- if no, then where did all the evil and suffering in the world come from, and how do they reflect on God's ability (or lack thereof)?

And of course, even this question - like the original PoE can be seen as one special case of a much larger question:

Why is it that God's behaviour, in every way we can observe or measure, is entirely consistent with God not existing at all?

It's quite simple actually.

You have freedom -- ability to think and act -- freedom to do good actions or evil ones.

 

[ecco]

The OP does not say the argument is specific to Atheists. Nor does the title.
Answering Atheists arguments, refers to just that - answering Atheist's arguments.

Uh, no. You actually said...

One of the Atheists argument is as follows

To which I responded in post #8...

I am an atheist. I have never said "If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect." For one thing, Apollo was not considered to be omnipotent or omniscient. What I might have said is that many Christians believe their god is omnipotent and omniscient.

You do understand the difference, don't you?

It does not mean that Atheists created the argument, and incorporated it into an anthem. It just means Atheists use it, and they do.

That is exactly what you meant, even if you forgot to use an apostrophe.

Nevertheless, as I and many other actual real live atheists have pointed out, we do not use those arguments.

Again...

I am an atheist. I have never said "If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect." For one thing, Apollo was not considered to be omnipotent or omniscient.

What I might have said is that many Christians believe their god is omnipotent and omniscient. You do understand the difference, don't you?

You choose to continue to ignore the difference.

 

[ecco]

According to the Bible. Adam sinned, a sin deserving of death. God did not go against his standards of justice, and righteousness, by reversing the death penalty, even though Adam's sin brought suffering on all his children.

Well, let's see. You believe your god is omniscient and omnipotent. You believe your god is eternal. You may believe your god created everything 6000 years ago or billions of years ago. Regardless, you believe your eternal god was around long before that. If we accept your beliefs and your stories, god did nothing for most of eternity and then created the universe and the earth and A&E. Being omnipotent, he did all these things exactly as he wanted to. Being omniscient, he knew that he created A&E exactly in such a way that they would disobey him. He knew. That's what omniscience means. Then, when things turned out precisely as he knew they would, he told Adam that he sinned and brought suffering on all his children. He told Eve she and her descendants would endure pain during childbirth. He punished them for doing exactly what he knew they would do in accordance with the precise way he built them.

 

[ecco]

No offense, but you clowns never shut up about how you "disbelieve" whatever any theist says they believe in. We've all heard it a thousand times What we don't hear, ever, is what you DO believe. Because that you'd have to defend; and defend by the same criteria that you demand the theist defend his beliefs. And it's a very rare atheist that's willing to do battle on an even playing field. Or that even COULD.

I have stated what I DO believe. Many times on RF. I believe some of those times you were following the thread.

Nevertheless, I'll be glad to post it again. It's really not very complicated.

Gods are the creation of man's imaginings.​

There, an atheist has stated what he DOES believe.

 

[Nimos]

Yes. If God created everything, but we know God did not create ISIS bombs, or the atomic bomb, etc., so that alone tells us, we should not conclude that God created everything, right?

That is not what is meant with God creating everything. But rather that God deciding that lifeforms should eat each other to survive. That natural disasters should wreck the lives of innocents. Giving people the option to do evil and even allow it in the first place.

God allows evil, but there is a big difference between allowing something, and causing it, right?

Not really when you are God I would say, he is not facing a dilemma or having to live by certain rules as he created them himself. A psychopath might have been born with some urges or lack of compassion, that might cause them to do evil things to others. Could God with the blink of an eye make sure that he/she is cured? And if he doesn't and this person shoot up a childcare is God then not partly to blame for not doing anything?

So, apparently, your argument is missing a lot, if it is supposed to stand.

I don't think they are

 

[nPeace]

Do aborted embryos's souls go to Heaven? If yes, then in order to have a permanent lasting freedom it is not necessary to suffer, since we know that human fertilised eggs do not have a nervous system.

Therefore, your defence does not obtain.

Ciao

- viole

To your question... No. Aborted souls do not go to heaven, according to the Bible. I haven't read it anywhere in there.

Does my "defense" still "not obtain"?

 

[nPeace]

There is only grey, in my view. It's not black and white. I don't live or think in the good/bad Abrahamic model. There is that which takes one away from God, and that which takes one closer to God.

So you do believe there is evil, and that takes you away from God? Or do you mean there is no evil, just paths that lead in different directions?
I'm not understanding.

 

[nPeace]

Well, you may think it is not sound (perhaps not convincing), but many theologians say this is the best argument argument against classical theism, and indeed, theologians and apologists made up a new field to study theodicies (basically, to make excuses that explain evil), and the literature (of back and forth arguments) is huge and complex.

If this is "the best argument" against "classical theism", then .

 

[Magical Wand]

If this is "the best argument" against "classical theism", then .

I don't think I was clear. I mean they consider it to be a serious and hard argument (so much so that they even invented a whole new field of theological study to try to deal with it). Some educated theists even admit not to have any good refutation of it. There are entire books dedicated to discuss the argument. So, I don't think a shallow objection warrants the judgement that the argument is unconvincing.

 

[nPeace]

You know, I suppose you aren't wrong in my case (though I have yet to find an opinion that isn't rooted in some kind of bias). I utilized a lot of mental gymnastics to keep my faith afloat when I was Christian, and in moving away from that, I've shed more and more of that and left it behind. My world view now is extremely simplified vs. what my world view before used to be.

That is actually a way to know you were Christian by name only. Worst yet not a follower of the Christian faith, of which Jesus heads.

Did not Jesus himself say, "If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples." John 8:31
Isn't that the reason he said the words at Matthew 7:21-23?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.
However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Why can God not exist (as a morally perfect entity, who is all powerful, all knowing and all wise), where evil exists, although God knows when evil existed, and although God wants to do something about it?
The argument is not a sound one.

Romans chapter 8 verses 20 and 21 says this... "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Allowing suffering for a permanently lasting freedom from corruption, seems pretty moral to me.
How can that not be moral?
It would actually be evidence too of one who is all knowing, all wise and all powerful. Isn't it?

Your argument fails on the the first premise -- atheists do not make that claim. Atheists don't believe in a god. If I don't believe in the existence of something, then I obviously do not believe it has any attributes, either.

In fact, most modern religions think of their deities in this way. (I don't believe Hinduism does -- but I'm unsure what Hinduism thinks about Brahman, if they think of him/it differently than the other manifestations of deity that they acknowledge.) But certainly, most Christian denominations and sects, as well as Muslims, accept that their deity is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.
However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Why can God not exist (as a morally perfect entity, who is all powerful, all knowing and all wise), where evil exists, although God knows when evil existed, and although God wants to do something about it?
The argument is not a sound one.

Romans chapter 8 verses 20 and 21 says this... "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Allowing suffering for a permanently lasting freedom from corruption, seems pretty moral to me.
How can that not be moral?
It would actually be evidence too of one who is all knowing, all wise and all powerful. Isn't it?

Having pointed out that your argument is not what atheists think, let me now clear up what our argument -- in this particular context -- actually is: and it is simply this:

• IF there is such a deity (omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent), then there cannot possibly be evil in the world, and
• IF there is evil in the world, then such a deity (omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent) cannot exist, so
• THEREFORE, either God exists OR there is evil in the world.

So which is it? Doctor Pangloss (Voltaire's Candide) argued that there is no evil in the world, that everything, no matter how horrible we mere humans might think it, was "for the best" in this "Best of All Possible Worlds." Some of the rest of us can't actually find any particular good in parasites that blind children, and about a trillion other horrors that humans can experience.

 

[nPeace]

I don't think I was clear. I mean they consider it to be a serious and hard argument (so much so that they even invented a whole new field of theological study to try to deal with it). Some educated theists even admit not to have any good refutation of it. There are entire books dedicated to discuss the argument. So, I don't think a shallow objection warrants the judgement that the argument is unconvincing.

Does it matter?

I understand that the apostate Christian gave Christianity a bad name, and made it easy for Atheists and other unbelievers to feel confident, i.e. get a swell head, but isn't that the opposite of what exists with the true Christian?
Acts 6:10-12 ;Matthew 22:46 ; Luke 21:15
So bad it was, their shame caused them to be blood guilty murderers.

 

[Vinayaka]

So you do believe there is evil, and that takes you away from God? Or do you mean there is no evil, just paths that lead in different directions?
I'm not understanding.

I don't expect you to understand. It is very difficult to understand the dharmic paradigm looking through Abrahamic glasses. I'm pleased that you're willing to admit you don't understand. Far too many people say they understand when they don't. So thank you for that. But this will go nowhere, as I don't know how else to explain it.