Answering Atheists

[nPeace]

Not to me. The better alternative would have been no suffering before or after (though I do not believe in any 'after').

You think it's immoral to allow suffering temporarily, for lasting and permanent benefits?
So do you think a father who let's his child suffer momentarily to correct a serious problem, is immoral?

 

[nPeace]

I find it amusing when theists presume to speak for Atheists without actually talking to them... We're right here. Ask us what we actually think.

I'm glad you can find something amusing, at least.
Aren't you presuming to know whom theist has or has not spoken to? Is it not better to apply your advise and ask before presuming?
Just a friendly suggestion.

The argument has been posted on RF.
I can't quote those though, since that would be to break an RF rule.

INone of the OP's points are Atheistic contentions that I've ever encountered. I actually find they have more in common with people simply questioning their own faith. They're contentions about the nature or character of a god, from a particular group of theists... But I digress.

Okay. Sure. After all, I don't expect you to meet and speak with all the Atheists on the planet.

IAn Atheist's contention might be, say, something like this: "I find the very idea of deities to be ridiculous. Can you give me one good reason why I should even stop to consider the existence of your magic invisible sky person?"

I suppose you are referring to the handful you know.
You certainly are not presuming to know what the other 99.89% would say, right?

 

[blü 2]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.​

Not quite. Rather, whether or not God exists, believers assert that God exists and is, inter alia, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, perfect, and benevolent.

2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.​

That seems to be implicit in believers' claims, yes.

3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
​

No, if God is omnipotent then evil can only exist because God wills it ─ Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
​

All morality is relative. And clearly God's morality as reported in the bible, of eg ordaining invasive war, massacre of populations, mass rape, murderous religious intolerance, human sacrifice, slavery, women as property and so on is a morality I find grossly offensive.

But yes, an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God has only to snap [his] fingers and there can be no more evil.

5. Evil exists.
​

I think we can agree on that one.

6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
​

Seems fair.

7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.
​

Non sequitur. It does NOT follow that because evil exists, God doesn't.

Instead it follows that if God exists then God is either not omnipotent or not benevolent or both.

And as Epicurus is said to have said, in effect, who'd bother worshiping such a being?

 

[nPeace]

Would you say that God can not do something like 'Abrakadabra' ?
Then he wouldn't be omnipotent, for omnipotence entails the utmost power.
Think of it like this: Who is more powerful, a being that does Abrakadabra or a being that needs to wait thousands of years to get what he wants?

The Bible does not say that God does "Abrakadabra" stuff.
God does not do snap of the finger wizardry, because that's what it would amount to - trickery.

Think of what you know, that seems pretty amazing, and almost miraculous ... if you didn't know better.
You can be where you are right now, and talk to hundreds of people miles away... even at the opposite end of earth.
It's not magic. It's waves.
The matter and energy we humans use to accomplish amazing things, is like "child's play" to the one described at Isaiah 40:26.

Whereas, man needs to build a craft; make it in a special way, to protect him in space, and to travel through space, God does not need a space craft.
See those F16s that break the speed of sound, God laughs at them.
An angel can break the speed of light. In fact, as fast as it takes lightning to strike the earth, an angel can travel the entire universe.
Don't ask me how fast they clock. I don't know.

I have come to realize from your post, and another poster's that people here seem to use words a bit loosely.
For example, the word power. Does power mean more than what power means? Or is it being applied out of context?

I looked up the word omnipotent in the dictionary, and it says... (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.

Ultimate power does not mean able to do anything, so the choice of usage is contextual.
God has ultimate power. There is nothing more powerful, nor anything that can prevent him accomplishing his wll.
However, God cannot do anything. For example, he cannot kill himself - he cannot die. Nor can he lie, but those things are not required for power.

So perhaps it is important we be clear on, and have an understanding of the correct usage of our terms.

Ultimate power also does not mean breaking laws that cannot be broken.
For example, God is described in the Bible, as the beginning and the end.
How can he be anything else? Because he cannot be second or third, does that mean he is not omnipotent?

Can 1 + 1 = 5, at any point in time? In our mind it can.
So it looks like God is not omnipotent nor omniscient in the mind of some.
It's not reality though, is it.

 

[Koldo]

The Bible does not say that God does "Abrakadabra" stuff.
God does not do snap of the finger wizardry, because that's what it would amount to - trickery.

Think of what you know, that seems pretty amazing, and almost miraculous ... if you didn't know better.
You can be where you are right now, and talk to hundreds of people miles away... even at the opposite end of earth.
It's not magic. It's waves.
The matter and energy we humans use to accomplish amazing things, is like "child's play" to the one described at Isaiah 40:26.

Whereas, man needs to build a craft; make it in a special way, to protect him in space, and to travel through space, God does not need a space craft.
See those F16s that break the speed of sound, God laughs at them.
An angel can break the speed of light. In fact, as fast as it takes lightning to strike the earth, an angel can travel the entire universe.
Don't ask me how fast they clock. I don't know.

I have come to realize from your post, and another poster's that people here seem to use words a bit loosely.
For example, the word power. Does power mean more than what power means? Or is it being applied out of context?

I looked up the word omnipotent in the dictionary, and it says... (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.

Ultimate power does not mean able to do anything, so the choice of usage is contextual.
God has ultimate power. There is nothing more powerful, nor anything that can prevent him accomplishing his wll.
However, God cannot do anything. For example, he cannot kill himself - he cannot die. Nor can he lie, but those things are not required for power.

So perhaps it is important we be clear on, and have an understanding of the correct usage of our terms.

Ultimate power also does not mean breaking laws that cannot be broken.
For example, God is described in the Bible, as the beginning and the end.
How can he be anything else? Because he cannot be second or third, does that mean he is not omnipotent?

Can 1 + 1 = 5, at any point in time? In our mind it can.
So it looks like God is not omnipotent nor omniscient in the mind of some.
It's not reality though, is it.

Your examples of things God can't do ammounts to logically contradictory things.
Can God instantly accomplish things are not logically contradictory though? Is he able to 'abrakadabra' those?
If yes, then he is omnipotent.

 

[nPeace]

Evil is in itself a loaded concept. Different cultures, religions, and even people have different concepts of "desirable and undesirable" from each other - some with something close to your idea of good and evil, some have something else entirely.

Everyone can agree that the examples you provide are horrendous, but to attribute something as "evil" is to give it extra meaning, just like "sin." Sin and evil only applies to folks who believe in sin and evil as concepts, and applies little value to those who don't. Do you see the value in Dharma? How about Frith? If you don't believe in those ideas, maybe apply that notion to those who do believe those things and look at your idea of what good and evil are.

Thanks for that. I never looked at it that way before. This is useful. Something I will keep in mind when talking with people.
You don't think it's a "sin" to try to reason with persons on a different view though, do you?

 

[nPeace]

What is sin to the person who doesn't believe in sin? What is evil to the person that doesn't believe in evil?

The reason you have a hard time wrapping your head around this might not be their fault... Instead of just assuming what you think they are thinking, you could just ask them what they think.

Good suggestion. I did ask, and I don't think I have a hard time understanding it. I may put it in different words, or different to how they put it, but it means the same thing, when all is considered.
Prove me wrong.

 

[nPeace]

This. To add, I attribute rape and murder to societal problems with many possible causes, including really bad, untreated mental illness. Worse than your normal case of borderline personality disorder even, I think. But there can be other reasons and motivations too.

Are the acts of the mentally ill considered good, if they are problematic? If they are not good, what are they considered to be by one who "does not believe in evil"?

 

[SigurdReginson]

That is actually a way to know you were Christian by name only. Worst yet not a follower of the Christian faith, of which Jesus heads.

Did not Jesus himself say, "If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples." John 8:31
Isn't that the reason he said the words at Matthew 7:21-23?

30 years of a christian in name only, huh? Cool story.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your children come from you, yes?
Does that mean they will be like you, and think like you, and cannot think for themselves, and make their own decisions?
Of couse not. Why is god to blame for what Satan thinks?

We're responsible for the foreseeable, avoidable consequences of our actions. For an omniscient being, every consequence is foreseeable. For an omnipotent being, every consequence is avoidable.

If Hitler's parents knew that their child would murder millions of people, and if they had the power to make it so their child didn't murder millions of people, but they chose to have a child who they know would murder millions of people anyway, then Hitler's parents would be responsible for those millions of murders.

Are you asking for more information of this freedom?

I'm asking what you mean.

I mentioned it, as one of the reasons God allows suffering.
God did not have to make a provision for Adam's children. He could simply have said, "Okay. The dad sins. The defect passes on to the children. They all get sick and die. That's the end of that."
God made provision for mankind to be redeemed as his children, with life in view - the real life - everlasting life - true freedom from suffering, pain, and death

"Adam's sin" points to an imperfection on God's part.

As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The quality of the creation reflects on God's skill as a creator. If we're all "pots" and God is the "potter" - to use a Biblical metaphor - then our flaws are evidence of deficiencies in God's skill or care.

No. Again, for emphasis.
The Bible tells us, that god does not test us with evil. James 1:13, 14
Where did you get that from my post?

From what you said:

"God's allowing suffering accomplishes a number of things. [...] One of them, is allowing us time to demonstrate what we really are, on the inside."

So this is based on a wrong premise.

You changed your mind?

Edit: or are you splitting some hair about "testing" vs. "demonstrating"?

 

[AlexanderG]

To your question... No. Aborted souls do not go to heaven, according to the Bible. I haven't read it anywhere in there.

Does my "defense" still "not obtain"?

Hm, so you believe the roughly 50% of fertilized eggs that naturally abort before a woman realizes she's pregnant all have souls that are eternally punished in hell? If anyone is responsible for those natural abortions, how is it not god? Also, the bible lays out a ritual for causing an abortion if the fetus was conceived due to adultery. Being conceived outside of marriage justifies eternal punishment of the child?

 

[nPeace]

I did a separate post about that.

Would you mind pointing me to it?

From theists... particularly the ones saying that the Cosmological Argument reflects their God.

But if you have different ideas about where Satan came from, please share.

Jesus said, at John 8:44 . . .You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.

The apostle John said, at Revelation 12:7-10... And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!

In the book of Job, Satan traversed heaven and earth.
(Job 1:6) Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them.

According to the Bible, Satan is a son of God (a rebellious son), like all the angels God created.
He was created a spirit being to dwell in heaven with all the heavenly sons of God.
He was eventually cast out of God's "household".

I'm using your term, so you tell me what you meant.

As one able to develop their own character - not a programed robot that only can process whats given it - the angel that sinned, developed thinking that was in opposition to his father.
That thinking was acted upon, It was selfish.
Perhaps Ezekiel 28:14-17 might help.

Which do you think doesn't ultimately come from God: internal or external?

God, according to the Bible, is the source of life, and "every good gift, and perfect present". James 1:17
To give you a list of everthing though, would be way too much.

God is not the source of wickedness and evil. He is holy - pure to the highest degree. Deuteronomy 32:4 ; Revelation 4:8

 

[SigurdReginson]

Good suggestion. I did ask, and I don't think I have a hard time understanding it. I may put it in different words, or different to how they put it, but it means the same thing, when all is considered.
Prove me wrong.

Well, here's an example that comes to mind. There was a thread yesterday about a lion who killed and ate 3 small children. Would you say that is an evil act, or an act by an Apex predator to eat and survive? You and I can both agree that it's tragic, and horrendous, and regretful, but is it evil? The lion sees humans as meat, and they don't hold us in any special regard like we do. Now, imagine if it was a man instead of a lion. Would that be evil? Add the human element into the act, and it becomes "evil."

You see, that's just one way that the term is loaded. On top of that, it's a term that is often conflated with religious undertones and the concept of sin and guilt. It's also something that changes depending on the culture of the people who designate what is and is not evil. In some cultures, promiscuity is considered evil, while in others it's a cultural norm.

Outside of the human world, there is no evil. It's a creation by humans for humans; a construct. It's no more real than any other concept that only exists in the human realm, like "justice" or "righteousness." None of these things exist in the same ways between cultures, and all of them change according to what humans want to make them. Sometimes cultures even combine those themes, and don't make any distinction between them at all.

We like to complicate things.

 

[blü 2]

The Bible does not say that God does "Abrakadabra" stuff.

"Let there be light!" is abracadabra stuff.

God does not do snap of the finger wizardry, because that's what it would amount to - trickery.

In what sense trickery? If God is the real deal in omnipotence, why not one snap of the fingers?

Ultimate power does not mean able to do anything, so the choice of usage is contextual.

Why doesn't it mean able to do anything? Who, on the omnipotence hypothesis, created the rules of logic, God or someone else?

However, God cannot do anything. For example, he cannot kill himself - he cannot die.

Why can't an all-powerful being terminate [his] own existence?

Nor can he lie, but those things are not required for power.

So God in the bible is lying when [he] says [he] tells lies?

1 Kings 22:23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.”

Jeremiah 4:10 ... “Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem ...”

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

2 Thessalonians 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.​

 

[SigurdReginson]

Thanks for that. I never looked at it that way before. This is useful. Something I will keep in mind when talking with people.
You don't think it's a "sin" to try to reason with persons on a different view though, do you?

I don't think it's a sin to do anything. I think discussion is the reason we are here, though! We all want to pick each other's brains and trade ideas. I think that's a noble thing.

 

[nPeace]

Much. If we have the ability to foil many of his "plans" with so small a thing as free will, then your god is not all-powerful.

If you rolled a bowling ball - a good throw - and someone seeing that it's a good throw stuck something out in the ball's path, interrupting a strike, it doesn't mean you lost the game.

God's purpose was interrupted, not foiled.
Power has nothing to do with how something is done, or when it is accomplished.
God's omnipotence allows him to accomplish what he wills, regardless of the course taken.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Without doing anything to stop it?
Can you offer a suggestion on what he should have done to stop it? I really am interested in hearing it

How about not having a tree of knowledge of good and evil for them to eat the fruit of? How about not creating Lucifer? If god is all knowing, he knew what creating these things would do.

Set up the dominoes? How

By creating things that would later turn into man's downfall. Also, he would have created rules that could be exploited to cause evil. If pain was less intense than it is, and if mental trauma wasn't as damaging as it is, suffering would be reduced so much...

Is this what you mean by set up the dominoes?
So your putting food on the table, and telling your children not to eat is, is equivalent to setting food on the table, and telling your cat not to eat it?
So if you ask why they ate it, they should go "Meow".
Joke.... but you get the point... I hope.

I'm not all knowing, though. We are discussing an all powerful god. He should know how everything unfolds even before he makes his first action, no?

Maybe your idea of god isn't all powerful?

Maybe you should be God.
That was another joke.
Actually, you are answering a question raised through this whole experience, but I am interesting in hearing your suggestions.
What should he have done, exactly?

As I stated above, he could have left those things out for starters.

I have some questions, though. Do you believe we will have free will in heaven? If we do, why wouldn't there be suffering like there is here on earth? Could god have just made things that way from the start? Why didn't he just do that?

Did someone tell you that God created hell?
I hope you didn't swallow it, because I'd have to ask what other things you have been told.
Did you actually read that God created hell? Can you show me where? I'd like to see it for myself.

I have never met a Christian who didn't think god created hell. If he didn't, who did? What other beings have the capability to manifest whole plains of existence outside of god, and where did you read that they could do this in the bible? God is the only one who can create worlds, as far as I know.

That said, no, I don't remember reading anywhere that god actually created the place in the bible specifically, so there is that. He does throw people into there, though! Luke 12:5

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

So, if he didn't make it, why is he the one with the authority to throw people into hell? Regardless, though, even if he didn't somehow make it, and was just utilizing something that was already laying around, it's kind of splitting hairs over the matter. That's like saying "just because the killer shot you and threw you into a shallow grave doesn't mean he dug the shallow grave!"

If god didn't create hell, who did, and why is god the one with the authority to cast people in, and not the original creator?

 

[firedragon]

How about not having a tree of knowledge of good and evil for them to eat the fruit of? How about not creating Lucifer? If god is all knowing, he knew what creating these things would do.

For curiosities sake, can you specify what should have been created.

So you think God created Lucifer right? Some believe Lucifer was an angel, and he rebelled against God so God didnt create Lucifer.

So can you just make a suggestion how it should have been done? Say God created Angels, and one of them rebelled and he changed his name to Lucifer, so what would your suggestion to God would have been if you were there?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is that an explanation of Evil and Good? No its not.

لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِىَ دِينِ ‎
Lakum dīnukum waliya dīni

 

[nPeace]

I can. Snap his fingers. That's how he created the universe, right? So, he should be able to do anything that easily. Unless you're saying he can't do it, which means he's not omnipotent.

Omnipotence has nothing to do with how something is done. Unless... Is there a dictionary that says that? No. God did not snap his finger to create the universe. Did you read that, or do you just think that's how it was?
Jesus did liken God's active force to his finger though. Snapping it is not what he had in mind. Luke 11:20

Last I checked, I'm not omnipotent or omniscient. So using me or any other human as a comparison for your god doesn't work.

I did not compare you nor any human to God. I used a situation that a human can relate to, in order to help them get the point.
Apparently you didn't... or did you?

IGod created Satan and everything else, supposedly knowing what would happen.

Perhaps this is what you were told, taught, or maybe you believe this, but that is not true. Nowhere does the Bible say that.

God created a heavenly family of spirit sons. He did not create Satan.
One of God's sons chose to become Satan the Devil - that is Opposer, and Slanderer.
One who tells wicked lies, and opposes their father, is not created or made that way. It's a choice.

Nowhere does the Bible say God created his children, "knowing what would happen".
In fact, the Bible reveals the opposite. Read Genesis 3. Also consider that God allowed his creatures their freedom of choice, so that he did not get to know "what they would do". See Genesis 22:12 for example.

IHe has the power to either not have created it or to have created it differently (a power we humans don't have), and therefore he is to blame.

When the angel became Satan, and opposed and challenged God's sovereignty... slandering his great name, God could have destroyed him immediately. However, that would only show one thing... that God can exercise his power against anyone who opposes him.
It does not address the real issue, or issues involved.

You blame God. Okay, but people wrongly blame others everyday. How does that matter in this conversation?
Does it not only highlight the fact that people make accusations oftentimes because they are simply against something or someone they don't like?
(Matthew 5:11) “Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake.
(1 Peter 4:3, 4) 3 For the time that has passed by is sufficient for you to have done the will of the nations when you carried on in acts of brazen conduct, unbridled passions, overdrinking, wild parties, drinking bouts, and lawless idolatries. 4 They are puzzled that you do not continue running with them in the same decadent course of debauchery, so they speak abusively of you.

If the accusations were well founded, you would have an argument, but as it stands, you have not shown that God is to blame, especially with wrong presuppositions.

IIf I knowingly create a machine that will go around and murder dogs and let it out into the world, I'm responsible for that machine existing and causing the harm it does.

Of course. Definitely 100%.
However, your arguments and beliefs created that god.
It's not from the Bible. That would be like me saying, my neighbor - you - is not a good father, as he hangs his children out in the sun. All the while, all you are doing, is hanging clothes out, to dry.