Anti-Christmas Thread

[oldbadger]

These days many people worship at the supermarket on a Sunday morning.

The Bricklayers Arms on Friday night!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The Bricklayers Arms on Friday night!

Do you worship real ale, or "craft beer" as they now call it?

 

[oldbadger]

There is not enough bah-humbuggery in this thread.

There is an RF member who feels likre berating people if they wish him 'Merry Christmas!' but he obviously hasn't yet stumbled on this thread.

One member mentioned that Christmas is nice because we can wish check-out operators a Merry Christmas. I wish checkout operators a Good-day or 'All the best' any day of the friggin' year!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

One member mentioned that Christmas is nice because we can wish check-out operators a Merry Christmas. I wish checkout operators a Good-day or 'All the best' any day of the friggin' year!

So do I. Check-out staff are full of humbuggery leading up to Christmas, but they are not allowed to show it.

 

[oldbadger]

Do you worship real ale, or "craft beer" as they now call it?

Ah........ I am an impostor! I do occasionally drink real-ales, but because my wife likes Guiness-draught I buy 4-packs at ridiculously low price from our local store.

If I open a tin of Guiness-draught, poor it into two standard wine glasses and give one to my wife, she is giggling before she's even finished her glass.

I'm not going to describe the results of the remaining three tins, but I can tell you from the bottom of my heart, I worship Guiness-draught.

 

[Quintessence]

You are nit picking artistic liberties instead of addressing the main point of the OP.

Quite frankly, I have a hard time seeing what the point of the OP is beneath all the exaggeration and absurdity. Which is why, as I said, the portrait painted by the OP bears little to no resemblance to anything "Christmas" to me, and I don't see much value in addressing something that looks like a strawperson to me. Later elaborations like this make more sense to me, speaking of which:

The problem with Christmas is how it becomes so artificial. And as a non-Christian it bothers me as I actually don't want to celebrate Christmas for endorsing a "religious" holiday that I'm not even part of and isn't even really that religious. When you start to think about it and realise it has almost nothing to do with Christianity- then it starts to feel like something really is wrong. There's that part of me going "why am I doing this? What is this for?".

I guess I really don't see it as "artificial" unless I want to start labeling every other human cultural tradition as "artificial" as well. Christmas stopped being a purely Christian religious holiday before you or I were even born (honestly, I'm not sure it was ever a purely Christian religious holiday). Cultural evolution is as natural as biological evolution, and I see these shifts as part of human cultural evolution. Nothing artificial about it to me. Maybe some folks would feel better about it if the name of the holiday changed to divorce it from its Christian origins. I call the perversion of "Christmas" that worships the Spirit of Money (and wastefully materialistic consumer capitalism in particular) by the term "Giftmas." Some folks take what they perceive as non-religious celebration "Secular Christmas" or some such. Regardless, it's a firmly-engrained national tradition in my country that can't be escaped from no matter what form it takes. Do I want to participate in American culture or not?

I'd say I don't have the sense of tradition or connection to Christmas that you have. Neither of my parents are Christian and nor are any family members or friends. Christmas "just happens" and I don't know what a devout Christian family would do for Christmas except maybe go to church. Beyond being nice to people and a few nice things to eat- I really don't know what it's for now I'm older (and the excitement over presents isn't quite such a big thing at least).

Yeah, I can understand having a different attitude towards it if one didn't grow up with strong family traditions. To clarify, my family was hardly a devout Christian family - I grew up in an multi-religion household, and our major family celebrations were only ever loosely religious, if at all. Those days are about a couple things - culinary traditions and honoring family ties. We're a family of foodies, so the culinary stuff is a biggie. There are special meals we eat just on those days, and they are amazing.

On the whole, if you don't want Christmas to be a thing for you and your relations or friends, it doesn't have to be. If you want it to be, you can start making traditions. It's how traditions get started, yeah?

I think I mentioned it in the OP but I like the idea of celebrating New Years Day instead. I can really "relate" to that (even if it is just one orbit round the sun). It's a milestone you can measure and an opportunity to think about the year behind you and the one that lies ahead. As a secular alternative, that makes sense to me. But it's still pretty ballsy to say "I don't celebrate Christmas" given that it's become so all pervasive.

LOL... funny you mention that day, because if I were ever to dub a so-called holiday "artificial," that one would probably top my list. Doesn't help that I hate the Gregorian calendar as a Pagan.

 

[Laika]

Quite frankly, I have a hard time seeing what the point of the OP is beneath all the exaggeration and absurdity. Which is why, as I said, the portrait painted by the OP bears little to no resemblance to anything "Christmas" to me, and I don't see much value in addressing something that looks like a strawperson to me. Later elaborations like this make more sense to me, speaking of which:



I guess I really don't see it as "artificial" unless I want to start labeling every other human cultural tradition as "artificial" as well. Christmas stopped being a purely Christian religious holiday before you or I were even born (honestly, I'm not sure it was ever a purely Christian religious holiday). Cultural evolution is as natural as biological evolution, and I see these shifts as part of human cultural evolution. Nothing artificial about it to me. Maybe some folks would feel better about it if the name of the holiday changed to divorce it from its Christian origins. I call the perversion of "Christmas" that worships the Spirit of Money (and wastefully materialistic consumer capitalism in particular) by the term "Giftmas." Some folks take what they perceive as non-religious celebration "Secular Christmas" or some such. Regardless, it's a firmly-engrained national tradition in my country that can't be escaped from no matter what form it takes. Do I want to participate in American culture or not?



Yeah, I can understand having a different attitude towards it if one didn't grow up with strong family traditions. To clarify, my family was hardly a devout Christian family - I grew up in an multi-religion household, and our major family celebrations were only ever loosely religious, if at all. Those days are about a couple things - culinary traditions and honoring family ties. We're a family of foodies, so the culinary stuff is a biggie. There are special meals we eat just on those days, and they are amazing.

On the whole, if you don't want Christmas to be a thing for you and your relations or friends, it doesn't have to be. If you want it to be, you can start making traditions. It's how traditions get started, yeah?



LOL... funny you mention that day, because if I were ever to dub a so-called holiday "artificial," that one would probably top my list. Doesn't help that I hate the Gregorian calendar as a Pagan.

I think you under-estimate how difficult it is to change something like this. It may start with you but ripples outwards.

Say I was a parent (I'm not) and I didn't want to celebrate Christmas. The first ripple is with my spouse who probably won't see the issue and will disagree with me. The next one is with my kids. After that comes the problem of what happens when I educate my kids that Santa isn't real and it comes up on the school playground. Is it right for me to bring up kids so that they can be bullied by other Children who single them out for not believing in Santa? Is it cruel for for me to bring up my kids so that they end up telling other children the truth that Santa doesn't exist, and then it comes back to me because their kids parents find this behaviour rather disgusting, odd and "abnormal"? It ends up being offensive to other people to show the absurdity of a tradition that has lost any of its original meaning.

Even today, I brought up this thread with my dad and he took the opportunity to ridicule and provoke me and deliberately tried to get me to compromise my beliefs so that they had no practical implications at all so it had no effect on him whatsoever. That speaks volumes about my home life (my relationship with my parents is difficult), but I would expect a similar reaction from most people.

I don't want to celebrate a religious holiday for a religion I don't belong to. I most definitely don't want to celebrate a holiday if its sole purpose is to get me to waste money on things simply to compete with a hypothetical someone else who I am supposed to compare myself to in order to feel inferior. But the unease over actually going ahead with the non-conformity is really uncomfortable. That sense of dread that washes over me when I think of all the times Im going to have to "explain" it to other people who really couldn't care what my reasons are and are just too offended by it to let it go.

non-conformity sucks but no one ever lived up to their dreams without learning to ignore the pettiness of others as they grow bitter in their disappointments. It's hard though as you still want people to like you. Humans are social animals and "violating" a social ritual by refusing to participate based on your beliefs often is perceived as a threat not a right. Can it not be said that many of the negative aspects of Christmas only survive because people are too frightened to actually get rid of them? being absurd together is far easier than being rational alone. I just don't like Christmas because of the sheer level of conformity it represents for no apparent reason other than "everyone is doing it".

 

[columbus]

OMG
It is just me, or do the anti Christmas threads start earlier and earlier every year?
Tom

 

[Quintessence]

I don't want to celebrate a religious holiday for a religion I don't belong to.

Then don't.

That sense of dread that washes over me when I think of all the times Im going to have to "explain" it to other people who really couldn't care what my reasons are and are just too offended by it to let it go.

Truly, you don't owe them any explanation. It should be enough to say "I don't celebrate that" and end the conversation. If the person is so closed-minded that they can't accept different people have different cultural traditions, it's probably not worth your breath to try and explain anything anyway, yeah?

I just don't like Christmas because of the sheer level of conformity it represents for no apparent reason other than "everyone is doing it".

I'm really confused by this here, and don't understand this perspective because it is at odds with my own personal experiences and observations. The only thing I can think of to take from this is that you have no traditions for that time of year, and so you do not value it. That's entirely fine, but painting the entire phenomena as nothing more than a conformity thing doesn't feel fair. Maybe that's not how you intended to come across, though.

 

[Quetzal]

Truly, you don't owe them any explanation. It should be enough to say "I don't celebrate that" and end the conversation. If the person is so closed-minded that they can't accept different people have different cultural traditions, it's probably not worth your breath to try and explain anything anyway, yeah?

Good advice.

 

[Ingledsva]

I think you under-estimate how difficult it is to change something like this. It may start with you but ripples outwards.

Say I was a parent (I'm not) and I didn't want to celebrate Christmas. The first ripple is with my spouse who probably won't see the issue and will disagree with me. The next one is with my kids. After that comes the problem of what happens when I educate my kids that Santa isn't real and it comes up on the school playground. Is it right for me to bring up kids so that they can be bullied by other Children who single them out for not believing in Santa? Is it cruel for for me to bring up my kids so that they end up telling other children the truth that Santa doesn't exist, and then it comes back to me because their kids parents find this behaviour rather disgusting, odd and "abnormal"? It ends up being offensive to other people to show the absurdity of a tradition that has lost any of its original meaning.

Even today, I brought up this thread with my dad and he took the opportunity to ridicule and provoke me and deliberately tried to get me to compromise my beliefs so that they had no practical implications at all so it had no effect on him whatsoever. That speaks volumes about my home life (my relationship with my parents is difficult), but I would expect a similar reaction from most people.

I don't want to celebrate a religious holiday for a religion I don't belong to. I most definitely don't want to celebrate a holiday if its sole purpose is to get me to waste money on things simply to compete with a hypothetical someone else who I am supposed to compare myself to in order to feel inferior. But the unease over actually going ahead with the non-conformity is really uncomfortable. That sense of dread that washes over me when I think of all the times Im going to have to "explain" it to other people who really couldn't care what my reasons are and are just too offended by it to let it go.

non-conformity sucks but no one ever lived up to their dreams without learning to ignore the pettiness of others as they grow bitter in their disappointments. It's hard though as you still want people to like you. Humans are social animals and "violating" a social ritual by refusing to participate based on your beliefs often is perceived as a threat not a right. Can it not be said that many of the negative aspects of Christmas only survive because people are too frightened to actually get rid of them? being absurd together is far easier than being rational alone. I just don't like Christmas because of the sheer level of conformity it represents for no apparent reason other than "everyone is doing it".

Just celebrate it as I do. Party through a week, or more, of celebrating the Winter Solstice (December 21, 2016.)

If people ask why - you - an Atheist - are celebrating Christmas, --- tell them you aren't. You are celebrating the turning points of the year, like all ancient people have done before you.

If people ask why you then gave a gift, -- let them know you are just reciprocating in kind, - to your friends whom do celebrate Christmas, and gave you a gift. No other meaning attached.

*

 

[ukok102nak]

One of the few things I like about Christmas, is I get to wish people who serve me at a checkout a "merry Christmas". this is a small humanising gesture that is socially acceptable for me to make maybe once a year in December. The rest of the year- we are total strangers brought together by consumerism.

I also like it when my mum makes those rolls of sausages or stuffing wrapped up in a slice of bacon for Christmas Day. And Christmas Pudding. Hmmmmm...

But actually- there is not much else. Part of me has wanted to take the step of not celebrating Christmas.

As an "atheist" (or if you prefer "godless communist trying to destroy your way of life") there is a legitimate case for not indulging in a religious tradition that is weird when it's religious and even weirder now it has almost nothing to do with religion.

Take lying to Children about Santa. Is it really ok to tell your kids that on the night of December 24th a professional burglar is going to break into their house, probably using a chimney, and as an alcoholic gets so drunk from muld wine that you leave him on the mantle piece that he will leave you presents made by slave labourers in the Arctic and then continue his annual round the world crime spree on a sleigh pulled by a psychedelic reindeer with a glowing red nose to warn air traffic control they are approaching?

Then- after being forced to sing about psychedelic reindeer for their childhood at primary school- one day your kids realise Santas not real and get the first lesson in adulthood: your parents lie to you because they enjoy the power play of deciveing you so that when they put presents under the tree so you think it's extra special because it comes from a complete stranger rather than feel taken for granted for the other 364 days of the year.

Just Think about it for a second.

Then ask yourself Where does Christianity come into this weird LSD trip of a horror story to exploit and emotionally manipulate suggestable children?

ok. Let's take the Christian part of it seriously. According to the story Jesus was born from a virgin in a middle eastern country after being forced out of their home town because King Herod wanted to commit mass infanticide for fear of a messiah being born and so Mary and Joseph only found shelter in a stable as there was "no room in the inn". Meanwhile, three wise men got high and started seeing a bright star in the night sky and so went to Bethlehem to give this new born child gold, frankincense and myrrh. Keep in mind that this new born baby is prophesied to grow up to become a middle eastern extremist that tries to overthrow an evil empire only to die in a public execution and then be ressurected on Easter Sunday (when we celebrate a public execution and the worlds first zombie by eating chocolate bunnies and eggs. Which is. Just. ....Weird).

One thing to keep in mind is that the bible does not say when Jesus was born. Let alone anything as precise as December 25th- which may well have been an entirely political placement of the holiday to compete with a pre-existing pagan festival.

So to celebrate this "Christmas" we engage in a social ritual where, to be thankful for the birth of the saviour, we eat too much, sing songs that have very little to do with Christianity, get to know relatives we really don't like and most importantly for at least everyone under the age of 10- gather round a tree to get presents (should I mention that the trees origin in the Christmas celebrations comes from Germany courtesy of Prince Albert exporting it to England in the 19th century and so has nothing to do with the Middle East?)

Meanwhile, in America (and sadly more so in the UK) to celebrate what we are thankful for on the approach of Christmas, people do this.

Can we just take a moment to admit this is a load of ********? If Christians want to go the church and be devout on their special day that's ok but do we really have to turn this sort of mass hysteria into a national past time?

I have to admit Christopher Hitchens was right when he said celebrating Christmas is as close as the west comes to a one-party state with every radio and television station blaring out pro-Christmas propaganda/ music/ almost compulsively merry-ment. It's worth reading-whatever your beliefs- if you have a sense of humour.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...2008/12/tis_the_season_to_be_incredulous.html

Whilst I don't agree with the Soviets banning Christmas (I'm not quite that cruel) as a result of that weird experiment to reverse centuries of mass indoctrination with more indoctrination many people celebrated New Years Day instead. I kind of see the point as a secular holiday even if it is about the earth making one full journey round the sun...

Take a moment and just think. Is this "Christmas" how we really want to spend our December 25th? Seriously?

~;> indeed
as a former pagan i never intended to diminished
my knowledge and my believe in christmas
as we use the term christ must in the past
then perhaps someone heard it then translated it
to christmas (thats what ive heard from a brethren who always love to tell jokes)

by the way
we love celebrating the christmas for christmas is really meant unto everyone who has a good heart to do the right thing
and
specially unto those little children who are purely innocent same as those people who cannot lie
with god or without god
coz with god or without god does not mean
that we should stop telling what is true

as they say
though our former things that tells something about us
the people in the past whose without god in the world
but despite of this we are not liars
this if we may say so


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[Rick O'Shez]

OMG
It is just me, or do the anti Christmas threads start earlier and earlier every year?
Tom

Yeah! Bah humbug to anti-Christmas threads too!

 

[Laika]

Then don't.



Truly, you don't owe them any explanation. It should be enough to say "I don't celebrate that" and end the conversation. If the person is so closed-minded that they can't accept different people have different cultural traditions, it's probably not worth your breath to try and explain anything anyway, yeah?



I'm really confused by this here, and don't understand this perspective because it is at odds with my own personal experiences and observations. The only thing I can think of to take from this is that you have no traditions for that time of year, and so you do not value it. That's entirely fine, but painting the entire phenomena as nothing more than a conformity thing doesn't feel fair. Maybe that's not how you intended to come across, though.

It's good advice but hard to follow.

I don't see on what rational basis I can celebrate a holiday for a religion I don't belong to and whose traditions don't have anything to do with that religion. I could say it's social evolution, but I suspect if Jesus were kicking around on December 25th 2016, he'd be turning over dinner tables as he turned over the tables in the temple. Or else standing outside Wallmart preaching of the evils of Mamon as he watches his flock fight each other over flat screen TVs. I think the pain of seeing how far we've fallen from what we can be would be enough to make him to want to sacrifice himself on the cross for the love of mankind a second time round. Though, It be an electric chair this time. That bothers me as well.

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> as long as its not everyones fault
anyone could continue to do what is good
for the works of every good hearted people
with god or without god
shall show the real intention of any person towards unto one another
coz since humans thought that people who without god in the world
are the bad people but those people were wrong from the start
as we witness some of them cannot lie and no one forcing them to do this
unlike those who put themselves to glorifies something which is not true
then start to proclamed themselves
that they are of god

what a shame if we may say so
but if anyone would not agree unto this then it is a freewill and its a freewill
as they say
we rather not to deny it
that is

by the way
this is one of many things that we like about christmas where we could gathered with one another without being persecuted by the outside world
thats why
where and when it may happened (the gathering)
we always stand our ground unto this
very meaningful season
(although no one really knew the exact birthdate of the messia)


:ty:



godbless
unto all always

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I don't see any adults teaching their kids that Goldilocks/Snow White/Little Red Riding Hood visits on a yearly basis.

That would be a surreal gathering.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I'm not going to describe the results of the remaining three tins, but I can tell you from the bottom of my heart, I worship Guiness-draught.

From now on "Christmas" shall be known as "Guinnessmas", and draft Guinness shall be installed in every home.

 

[Laika]

Just celebrate it as I do. Party through a week, or more, of celebrating the Winter Solstice (December 21, 2016.)

If people ask why - you - an Atheist - are celebrating Christmas, --- tell them you aren't. You are celebrating the turning points of the year, like all ancient people have done before you.

If people ask why you then gave a gift, -- let them know you are just reciprocating in kind, - to your friends whom do celebrate Christmas, and gave you a gift. No other meaning attached.

*

Why should I worship at the alter of a false god?

Even after forty days and forty nights in the desert, I'm still not seeing a middle eastern Jew get so whacked out of his mind that he hallucinates about flying ******** reindeer!

 

[Ingledsva]

Why should I worship at the alter of a false god?

Even after forty days and forty nights in the desert, I'm still not seeing a middle eastern Jew get so whacked out of his mind that he hallucinates about flying ******** reindeer!

What God? What worship? Did you notice that - YOU AREN'T?

A Solstice or Equinox party has nothing to do with Gods or religions, or New Age stuff.

The religions were later formed around the turning of the earth, and the stars and heavens. Sun Gods, etc.

I do not worship any God in my Winter Solstice celebrations, and obviously, as an Atheist neither should you.

And YOU did say this, below - So - how is it different from what I said?

"I think I mentioned it in the OP but I like the idea of celebrating New Years Day instead. I can really "relate" to that (even if it is just one orbit round the sun). It's a milestone you can measure and an opportunity to think about the year behind you and the one that lies ahead. As a secular alternative, that makes sense to me..."

So?

*

 

[oldbadger]

Why should I worship at the alter of a false god?

Ha ha! I am prepared to bet you have never, in a long time, worshipped at any God's alter!

The ancients where I live waited to see the rising sun halt from its Northward progress and just start to return to the south, so they knew that the spring was only about 80 days away. And they killed all their excess stock which they could not feed (or shelter) through the rest of the cold months. Hence the enormous feasts. They did believe in Gods and super beings, but their Mid Winter Feast was just that.

But if you don't like Christmas, you could just get on with your life as best you can. But if you tell me that it's a great trial for you, Christmas, I'll just laugh.

Even after forty days and forty nights in the desert, I'm still not seeing a middle eastern Jew get so whacked out of his mind that he hallucinates about flying ******** reindeer!

Then you just haven't ever starved and thirsted in a desert. If you managed to survive a week in a deert you'd be positively raving, I reckon.