Anti-gay bigots are the ones with the problem

[Saint Frankenstein]

Considering that it is estimated that gay and bisexual men in the U.S. only make up about ~%4 of the population yet make up ~%57 of HIV diagnoses should tell you a little something, they are vastly disproportionately represented.

Cultural homophobia, lack of sexual education and barriers to healthcare have the most blame here. Most people in the world with HIV are heterosexuals, but you're just using it as a weapon to bash gay and bisexual men. You don't really care about their health.

 

[oldbadger]

Because this thread is about gays and gay and bisexual males were/are primarily responsible for the aids epidemic as we know/knew it, the other reasons are secondary. Everything I have claimed was straight from the CDC, they are facts and facts are not bigoted.

But the debate is about bigotry and prejudice, Stanyon, and so when and if people harp on about sicknesses the first thing I think of is :- Will you all celebrate with joy when medical science reduces HIV to a mere nothing by comparison?

And the CDC could very possibly be veiling some causes of HIV because the dreadful hiv and hepatitus contamination of thousands of people was mostly caused by blood purchased from abroad and the USA. Now this causes me to wonder how many folks got contaminated in the USA by bad blood?

In any event, can you tell us all... Yes or No ...... will you be heartily glad when HIV is beaten by medicine ion your country? In the UK we our medics are doing rather well, I understand.

Answer?

 

[oldbadger]

Nope

So....... do you keep the 507 laws of Moses (that's not including the other 106 ceremonial and sacrificial laws)

 

[oldbadger]

I love my son who is bisexual, provide him warmth, kindness, and friendship, and want him to be happy, while I continue to believe that the greatest peace and joy is found in keeping God's commandments.

Do you keep all of the laws of Moses (excepting the sacrificial and ceremonial ones) ???

 

[oldbadger]

And let us not forget the HIV victims who are intravenous drug users.

Yes.
And those victims who were infected by blood transfusions.

 

[columbus]

Cultural homophobia,

Especially this one.
The psychological damage done to young people by homophobes is huge.
I did a lot of volunteer work with HIV victims. One of the biggest indicators of self destructive, irresponsible, behavior was "very conservative, Christian, parents".

I wish I could tell you all the stories I heard about the damage done by traditional Christianity, and homophobia supported by the primitive ethics of ancient people. The damage done to families, and the dysfunctional behavior that resulted from telling kids that they're hell bound freaks who hate God.

I get very angry about this Christian Teaching, so I'd better stop here so I don't get in trouble with the mods.
Tom

 

[oldbadger]

No, I will probably say "good" and go about my business as usual just like if they came up with a cure for all forms of cancer.

Ah..... good.
I missed this post until now.

Well, they are beating HIV and and so there soon won't be this angle to home in on during debates about Freedom of sexuality for all'.

Our sexuality is as unique to us as our fingerprints, and once this is recognised and supported I do expect that the suicide rate will reduce to some extent, to show just how much unnecessary pain, tension and stress some folks have been subjected to by all this dreadful self righteous bigotry that's been going on for so long.

But I'm glad that you will acknowledge the successes as they are reported.

 

[oldbadger]

Especially this one.
The psychological damage done to young people by homophobes is huge.
I did a lot of volunteer work with HIV victims. One of the biggest indicators of self destructive, irresponsible, behavior was "very conservative, Christian, parents".

I wish I could tell you all the stories I heard about the damage done by traditional Christianity, and homophobia supported by the primitive ethics of ancient people. The damage done to families, and the dysfunctional behavior that resulted from telling kids that they're hell bound freaks who hate God.

I get very angry about this Christian Teaching, so I'd better stop here so I don't get in trouble with the mods.
Tom

Fair enough.

Good post, imo.

Your work with HIV victims must leave you with many many memories.

Fortunately a lot of Churches are now revising their understanding of the bible and progressing on to focus upon the Love and Understanding features of their faiths. I can only hope that this becomes a flood-tide of denominations.

And they can review Equality for women while they're at it.

 

[Scott C.]

So....... do you keep the 507 laws of Moses (that's not including the other 106 ceremonial and sacrificial laws)

No I don't. I assure you my view on which OT commandments are valid today is not motivated by bigotry. It was not particularly easy for me to abstain from sex while unmarried, yet I did so, because that is what I believe. If I wanted to cherry pick OT commandments so as to burden people that I don't like, and make life easy on me, I would come up with a different list of applicable commandments, than those which I follow today.

In a nustshell, I believe some commandments are everlasting and started with Adam and Eve. They pre-date the Law of Moses. When Moses came along, God gave him and his people very strict laws, which were temporary, which law would be fulfilled (come to an end) when Christ came to earth. Christ brought "the higher" law or "Gospel Law" to replace "the lesser" Law of Moses. I believe that all of the Ten Commandments, for example, transcend the Law of Moses, meaning they are everlasting commandments, since the beginning. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" was not replaced by Christ. It's still expected. The Sabbath is an interesting example. God sanctified the Sabbath at the end of creation, long before Moses, and is part of the "higher law". But the Law of Moses brought very specific rules on what we can and can't do on the Sabbath, which were not from the beginning. Those specific rules ended with the passing of the Law of Moses. But I still see the Sabbath as a day or worship and rest and I believe the day changed to Sunday to signify the passing of the Law of Moses and to be centered on the day of the resurrection.

The Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus told the people that animal sacrifice had come to an end and the people were now expected to sacrifice "a broken heart and a contrite spirit" to God. Christ, the Lamb of God, was the final sacrifice of blood.

I believe that God's law on sexuality was ordained from the foundation of the world. Before the world was created, long before the Law of Moses, God established the concept of the family unit and principles of pro-creation and sexuality that govern our God given passions. I don't think total compliance with God's law of chastity is easy for anyone who believes it and is committed to follow it. Many of us stumble to some extent and repent along the way. Chastity includes clean thoughts, clean language, clean media, modesty in dress, and sexual abstinence outside of the marriage of a man and a woman. I believe this is how it has always been and always will be. Why would I impose such rules on myself if I didn't believe this?

EDIT: Jesus showed great compassion to the woman taken in adultery, who was accussed by hypocrites. He told her to "go thy way and sin no more." He demonsrated much love. But he didn't tell the woman her adultery was ok. He said "sin no more." Jesus knew how to teach and encourage us to follow him with love.

 

[JJ50]

There is nothing wrong with having sex before marriage in a consensual adult relationship. One should know as much about one's partner as possible before one marry, which include whether they have the same sexual preferences.

 

[Stanyon]

Especially this one.
The psychological damage done to young people by homophobes is huge.
I did a lot of volunteer work with HIV victims. One of the biggest indicators of self destructive, irresponsible, behavior was "very conservative, Christian, parents".
I wish I could tell you all the stories I heard about the damage done by traditional Christianity, and homophobia supported by the primitive ethics of ancient people. The damage done to families, and the dysfunctional behavior that resulted from telling kids that they're hell bound freaks who hate God.
I get very angry about this Christian Teaching, so I'd better stop here so I don't get in trouble with the mods.
Tom

So in other words they were rebelling against their parents and did dumb sh*t and then they paid for it with their lives, teenagers do this quite a bit gay or straight and of any religion. What is interesting is that as male and female homosexuality becomes more acceptable and mainstream and we have same sex parents will children of accepting parents rebel by becoming conservatives whether religious or not?

 

[Stanyon]

you're just using it as a weapon to bash gay and bisexual men.

Data from a respected government agency is a weapon? If I showed you F.B.I. statistics that showed that most murders were committed by little orange men would you consider it to be bashing little orange men or just facts?

 

[oldbadger]

No I don't. I assure you my view on which OT commandments are valid today is not motivated by bigotry. It was not particularly easy for me to abstain from sex while unmarried, yet I did so, because that is what I believe. If I wanted to cherry pick OT commandments so as to burden people that I don't like, and make life easy on me, I would come up with a different list of applicable commandments, than those which I follow today.

In a nustshell, I believe some commandments are everlasting and started with Adam and Eve. They pre-date the Law of Moses. When Moses came along, God gave him and his people very strict laws, which were temporary, which law would be fulfilled (come to an end) when Christ came to earth. Christ brought "the higher" law or "Gospel Law" to replace "the lesser" Law of Moses. I believe that all of the Ten Commandments, for example, transcend the Law of Moses, meaning they are everlasting commandments, since the beginning. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" was not replaced by Christ. It's still expected. The Sabbath is an interesting example. God sanctified the Sabbath at the end of creation, long before Moses, and is part of the "higher law". But the Law of Moses brought very specific rules on what we can and can't do on the Sabbath, which were not from the beginning. Those specific rules ended with the passing of the Law of Moses. But I still see the Sabbath as a day or worship and rest and I believe the day changed to Sunday to signify the passing of the Law of Moses and to be centered on the day of the resurrection.

The Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus told the people that animal sacrifice had come to an end and the people were now expected to sacrifice "a broken heart and a contrite spirit" to God. Christ, the Lamb of God, was the final sacrifice of blood.

I believe that God's law on sexuality was ordained from the foundation of the world. Before the world was created, long before the Law of Moses, God established the concept of the family unit and principles of pro-creation and sexuality that govern our God given passions. I don't think total compliance with God's law of chastity is easy for anyone who believes it and is committed to follow it. Many of us stumble to some extent and repent along the way. Chastity includes clean thoughts, clean language, clean media, modesty in dress, and sexual abstinence outside of the marriage of a man and a woman. I believe this is how it has always been and always will be. Why would I impose such rules on myself if I didn't believe this?

So complicated...........

EDIT: Jesus showed great compassion to the woman taken in adultery, who was accussed by hypocrites. He told her to "go thy way and sin no more." He demonsrated much love. But he didn't tell the woman her adultery was ok. He said "sin no more." Jesus knew how to teach and encourage us to follow him with love.

But Jesus wasn't keeping your types of laws. Jesus was keeping Moses' laws, like when he spoke to the adulteress. So he was not keeping laws like you do.

Jesus wanted the laws of Moses kept, and re-instated, and he said so. And so I do think that you are picking and choosing your laws.

Where is the law about men laying with men outside of Moses laws?

 

[columbus]

Where is the law about men laying with men outside of Moses laws?

Suppose I bang my partner of 25+ years over the dining room table?

How does Lev 20-13 get involved? Nobody is lying down.
Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Data from a respected government agency is a weapon? If I showed you F.B.I. statistics that showed that most murders were committed by little orange men would you consider it to be bashing little orange men or just facts?

It's because you have an agenda and you know you do.

 

[Scott C.]

So complicated...........


But Jesus wasn't keeping your types of laws. Jesus was keeping Moses' laws, like when he spoke to the adulteress. So he was not keeping laws like you do.

Jesus wanted the laws of Moses kept, and re-instated, and he said so. And so I do think that you are picking and choosing your laws.

Where is the law about men laying with men outside of Moses laws?

I don't really want to debate homosexuality. I'm not gay so I don't know what that orientation is like, but I wish everyone the best. I jumped into this thread only to say I object to the accusation that "belief that gay sex is a sin = bigotry and hatred towards gay people." I argued that point adequately. I could be completely wrong about God, the Bible, and sin, and yet still not be motivated by bigotry. Our society, both the left and the right, have become too insulting and judgmental of each other's motives. If we disgaree with someone, we call them communists, immoral, criminals, muderers (abortionists), bigots, racists, fascists, Nazi's, mysoginists, homophobes, Islamaphobes, un-American, traitors, and on and on. There are too many labels and not enough understanding.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't really want to debate homosexuality. I'm not gay so I don't know what that orientation is like, but I wish everyone the best. I jumped into this thread only to say I object to the accusation that "belief that gay sex is a sin = bigotry and hatred towards gay people." I argued that point adequately. I could be completely wrong about God, the Bible, and sin, and yet still not be motivated by bigotry. Our society, both the left and the right, have become too insulting and judgmental of each other's motives. If we disgaree with someone, we call them communists, immoral, criminals, muderers (abortionists), bigots, racists, fascists, Nazi's, mysoginists, homophobes, Islamaphobes, un-American, traitors, and on and on. There are too many labels and not enough understanding.

The problem is that religious people who believe that homosexuality is immoral don't just keep it to themselves. They push it on people and try to use the law to enforce their morality. They show up at Pride events with bullhorns, insulting us and telling us God hates that event and we're going to burn in hell - including the young children attending with their families. They can believe whatever they want. If their religion proscribes homosexuality for its members, that's their business. But they have no business pushing it on others that don't belong to their religion. My religion doesn't have a concept of sin and my gods don't care what your gender or sexual orientation is. They're pretty queer themselves. So some Christian telling me I'm sinful is quite stupid and offensive. I don't protest outside of churches and read passages from the Eddas over a loudspeaker, so I'd appreciate it if Christians didn't try to push their views on me.

 

[oldbadger]

Suppose I bang my partner of 25+ years over the dining room table?

How does Lev 20-13 get involved? Nobody is lying down.
Tom

Hmmm...... can't do the joinery any good.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't really want to debate homosexuality. I'm not gay so I don't know what that orientation is like, but I wish everyone the best. I jumped into this thread only to say I object to the accusation that "belief that gay sex is a sin = bigotry and hatred towards gay people." I argued that point adequately. I could be completely wrong about God, the Bible, and sin, and yet still not be motivated by bigotry. Our society, both the left and the right, have become too insulting and judgmental of each other's motives.

Sure.
A person's beliefs can be acknowledged and left in peace.

It's only when folks try to stuff their beliefs down other folks' throats, or control their lives, that things get bad, imo.
A fundamental Baptist Church in the USA is at present seeking the death penalty for LGBT people. That's an example of belief turned in to full on badness.

If we disgaree with someone, we call them communists, immoral, criminals, muderers (abortionists), bigots, racists, fascists, Nazi's, mysoginists, homophobes, Islamaphobes, un-American, traitors, and on and on. There are too many labels and not enough understanding.

We?
I don't think that I do.
For instance I only call convicts criminals.

 

[oldbadger]

Cultural homophobia, lack of sexual education and barriers to healthcare have the most blame here. Most people in the world with HIV are heterosexuals, but you're just using it as a weapon to bash gay and bisexual men. You don't really care about their health.

The above sent to another member.

Yep. I can imagine how little-to-none sex-health education a pupil receives in some of these extremist communities.