Anti-immigrant rhetoric

[Pogo]

What are you on about? Nothing in the article supports your view?!!

It is a winking smilie, She is probably a Poe.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You're engaging in defamation against me. I don't think American voters benefit from Trump referring to immigrants as sub-human.

My own mother's an immigrant from South America; are you saying that I think my own mother is sub-human?

Is there a reason you're associating immigrants with being sub-human? That's you doing this, not me.

One question I have is this referring to the right group in question. Is it bona-fide immigrants going through the proper process, or is it illegals jumping the fence that are being called 'immigrants' by less than truthful people?

 

[Altfish]

Interesting.
Then the theory according to which a powerful rightist élite hired him to get rid of Trump is much more credible, thanks to your article.

Are you sure you want to abandon the "lone wolf theory"? It would save those élites' derrière.

I have no theory; I'd just read that an ex GOP supporter was the gunman. I'm happy to see your evidence for a left-wing nut job (Probably funded by Soros ), I've not seen that.

 

[Pogo]

One question I have is this referring to the right group in question. Is it bona-fide immigrants going through the proper process, or is it illegals jumping the fence that are being called 'immigrants' by less than truthful people?

Trump's immigrants is any group that you don't like.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

One question I have is this referring to the right group in question. Is it bona-fide immigrants going through the proper process, or is it illegals jumping the fence that are being called 'immigrants' by less than truthful people?

Do you know if an illegal border crossing person is legally entitled to seek asylum when in the USA even if entering illegally? Both as of now and if not relevant, then the case at some moment in the past?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Do you know if an illegal border crossing person is legally entitled to seek asylum when in the USA even if entering illegally? Both as of now and if not relevant, then the case at some moment in the past?

It shouldn't be the case for any illegal but
It's why i also think there is a constitutional free zone to address border issues.

But that said, I can see exceptions made in cases where the government wasn't/ isn't doing their job, leaving a situation where some illegals can conceivably be allowed a conditional one time amnesty , such as established families already rooted at least for a decade and verifiably settled to such an extent by virtue of their value and contributions to society and societies that desire to keep and allow them here.

The latter however shouldn't ever be the norm. I still support aggressive and decisive deportation for any fence jumpers trying to avoid being properly vetted.

 

[Tomef]

You're engaging in defamation against me. I don't think American voters benefit from Trump referring to immigrants as sub-human.

My own mother's an immigrant from South America; are you saying that I think my own mother is sub-human?

Is there a reason you're associating immigrants with being sub-human? That's you doing this, not me.

Don't be ridiculous. When I asked you, 'And what purpose does his 'sub-human' and so on rhetoric serve? Who benefits from it?', you said 'American voters benefit from it'. As you are well aware, notwithstanding your selective use of Trump speeches, Trump has used that term to refer to immigrants.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It shouldn't be the case for any illegal but
...

... I still support aggressive and decisive deportation for any fence jumpers trying to avoid being properly vetted.

Yeah, so you don't know if that is the case for asylum seekers, right? But that is relevant for your stance as a law abiding citizen who respect, follow and honor the laws of his country.

As for the bold you can't just dump people into other countries as you see fit. So it is not certain that if you caught all the illegals, that you would have any place to send them to, as other countries are also sovereign states.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yeah, so you don't know if that is the case for asylum seekers, right? But that is relevant for your stance as a law abiding citizen who respect, follow and honor the laws of his country.

As for the bold you can't just dump people into other countries as you see fit. So it is not certain that if you caught all the illegals, that you would have any place to send them to, as other countries are also sovereign states.

Thats why I feel other problem countries bleeding its population in unhealthy ways need to be approached and the issues dealt with.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Thats why I feel other problem countries bleeding its population in unhealthy ways need to be approached and the issues dealt with.

Well, you haven't answered if you are in effect not telling the truth about some of those you call illegal. I would think that would matter to you, as you are such an honest law abiding citizen. The law is not about what you feel or not feel, you do know that, right?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Well, you haven't answered if you are in effect not telling the truth about some of those you call illegal. I would think that would matter to you, as you are such an honest law abiding citizen. The law is not about what you feel or not feel, you do know that, right?

You're probably/likely right that one cannot tell by appearances alone , but there are definitely ways to determine whether somebody's illegal or not.

 

[Tomef]

Thats why I feel other problem countries bleeding its population in unhealthy ways need to be approached and the issues dealt with.

That's why Trump's showy, superficial gestures are effectively useless. The issues are complex. The approach Harris takes, and the involvement of countries as far from the border as Peru in tackling root causes, have a much greater chance of providing a lasting solution: Kamala Harris chose a long-term approach when tasked to tackle rise in border crossings

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You're probably/likely right that one cannot tell by appearances alone , but there are definitely ways to determine whether somebody's illegal or not.

Now I have read this:

How to seek asylum in the U.S. | USAGov

Learn how to seek asylum in the United States. If you already have been granted asylum, find out if you can sponsor your family to join you.

www.usa.gov

Please tell me how you understand it.

 

[Tomef]

Strawman.

A strawman is a false representation of another person's position in order to argue against it, not relevant here. I was pointing out that the refusal to read information solely because of where it comes from is the behaviour of a cult member, which is an accurate statement. That is one of the defining characteristics of cult membership, designating sources of information as unreliable on the sole basis of criticism of the cult leader.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

They are gleeful that Mango Mussolini gets Democrats upset.

Some certainly are. This is also bitterness, but not of the scorched earth magnitude.

Those that feel that way are the victims of conservative indoctrination media, which keeps them angry at the other, and so they hate liberals, intellectuals, atheists, trans people, immigrants, people of color and now childless cat ladies. They claim to love their country but hate just about everybody in it who doesn't look or think like they do, which is the majority, and don't think much of democracy or the rule of law, so their patriotism is questionable.

But what a terrible frame of mind to be in much or all of the time. It's the basis of the grievance mentality and must feel terrible. The propagandists that do this to them don't mind making their lives worse if it makes theirs better, and it does. This is how they convince people to vote Republican against their own interests: "I may be stuck in a life that is unsatisfying, but at least I can make the libs' lives worse even if I have given up hope of mine getting better."

To expand on that process, this is also what some denominations do to their adherents, but instead of making them angry, they use fear, which also diminishes lives but keeps them loyal and coming back for more. I got a visit from a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses not too long ago. I don't always answer the door for them, but when Ido, I am cheerful and respectful.

They were respectful as well but had a very dismal view of the state of the world and seemed to assume that anybody paying attention would as well, unaware that their opinions weren't based in experience, but rather in religious indoctrination. They seem stumped when I told them that although there are still too many people living needlessly difficult lives, there are also many living full lives - more than ever before in history. I pointed out that their lives were good living in the same tropical paradise as me and my other neighbors, where the weather is excellent, the foliage never ending, and we are safe, free, and are not suffering from privation or poverty.

They politely thanked me and left. I was stunned. It was if they had never heard that before and were disoriented upon hearing it. Once again, how sad that that had been done to them. My world was beautiful and friendly whereas theirs was horrible and going downhill quickly, yet it was the same world but experienced through different worldviews.

And I have a fresh anecdote regarding patriotism. Mexico's Independence Day is September 16th, and starting today, Mexican flags go up, but not before today (ours will go up today), and they must come down before October 1st. My wife and I asked a flag vendor about that, trying to confirm what we had heard, namely, that it was considered offensive to Mexicans when they or foreigners hung the flag at other times of the year, and he confirmed that it would be a mistake to do that. My wife pointed out that in America, it was common for people to hang flags year-round and she was told Mexicans don't do that. They know where they are, which we thought was funny.

The only people who have the right to complain about immigrants are Native Americans.

And it seems that before the Europeans arrived, some were invading one another's lands as language maps like this one suggest. The light brown Hokan regions occur in four islands, one separating a piece of the yellow Penutian from the rest, and the red Yukian and orange Athapascan regions are also divided. I don't know for a fact that this resulted from war and conquest, but it looks like it.

How about a second anecdote, also funny?

When we first moved to Mexico, I was asked why I wanted to live with the illegals. I explained that Mexicans were legal in Mexico, and that the only illegal I knew was my American neighbor who had let her visa lapse.

the first thing I note...and I don't know if anyone else did...that this quote is (quoting Encyclopedia.com):

It looks like you're referring to the citation being from the nineteenth century. Posts 10 and 11 refer to that

Then the theory according to which a powerful rightist élite hired him to get rid of Trump is much more credible, thanks to your article. Are you sure you want to abandon the "lone wolf theory"? It would save those élites' derrière.

The argument for it being a conservative conspiracy has some supporting evidence, but the lone wolf nut job hypothesis. The supporting evidence is that the shooter was visible for so long and left unmolested until he began firing, and also that the body was quickly cremated (some suggested that that might be to destroy evidence), but the counterarguments are that if this were a professional hit, Trump should be dead, and I don't see how it serves conspirators to have the body cremated. Killed, yes, but cremated?

The incompetence of the shooter makes it seem like he acted alone. It was Squeaky Frohm - Sarah Jane Moore - John Hinckley incompetent, so I lean toward the lone nut job account.

One more wrinkle: This article discusses dissatisfaction with Trump coming from the Republican ranks. Would they try to kill him to get him out of the race? Maybe, but if that were the plan, why wait until so close to the election. Or maybe they spared him until Kamala entered the race, thinking he could win, but the link below suggests that the Republicans referred to want Trump gone, not in the White House. They want him to lose because of ongoing damage he is doing alienating the anti-choice contingent and damage the economy. It's a highly speculative article, but if the facts in it are correct about who's saying what, intriguing.

With friends like these…

 

[Estro Felino]

Some certainly are. This is also bitterness, but not of the scorched earth magnitude.

Those that feel that way are the victims of conservative indoctrination media, which keeps them angry at the other, and so they hate liberals, intellectuals, atheists, trans people, immigrants, people of color and now childless cat ladies. They claim to love their country but hate just about everybody in it who doesn't look or think like they do, which is the majority, and don't think much of democracy or the rule of law, so their patriotism is questionable.

But what a terrible frame of mind to be in much or all of the time. It's the basis of the grievance mentality and must feel terrible. The propagandists that do this to them don't mind making their lives worse if it makes theirs better, and it does. This is how they convince people to vote Republican against their own interests: "I may be stuck in a life that is unsatisfying, but at least I can make the libs' lives worse even if I have given up hope of mine getting better."

To expand on that process, this is also what some denominations do to their adherents, but instead of making them angry, they use fear, which also diminishes lives but keeps them loyal and coming back for more. I got a visit from a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses not too long ago. I don't always answer the door for them, but when Ido, I am cheerful and respectful.

They were respectful as well but had a very dismal view of the state of the world and seemed to assume that anybody paying attention would as well, unaware that their opinions weren't based in experience, but rather in religious indoctrination. They seem stumped when I told them that although there are still too many people living needlessly difficult lives, there are also many living full lives - more than ever before in history. I pointed out that their lives were good living in the same tropical paradise as me and my other neighbors, where the weather is excellent, the foliage never ending, and we are safe, free, and are not suffering from privation or poverty.

They politely thanked me and left. I was stunned. It was if they had never heard that before and were disoriented upon hearing it. Once again, how sad that that had been done to them. My world was beautiful and friendly whereas theirs was horrible and going downhill quickly, yet it was the same world but experienced through different worldviews.

And I have a fresh anecdote regarding patriotism. Mexico's Independence Day is September 16th, and starting today, Mexican flags go up, but not before today (ours will go up today), and they must come down before October 1st. My wife and I asked a flag vendor about that, trying to confirm what we had heard, namely, that it was considered offensive to Mexicans when they or foreigners hung the flag at other times of the year, and he confirmed that it would be a mistake to do that. My wife pointed out that in America, it was common for people to hang flags year-round and she was told Mexicans don't do that. They know where they are, which we thought was funny.

And it seems that before the Europeans arrived, some were invading one another's lands as language maps like this one suggest. The light brown Hokan regions occur in four islands, one separating a piece of the yellow Penutian from the rest, and the red Yukian and orange Athapascan regions are also divided. I don't know for a fact that this resulted from war and conquest, but it looks like it.

View attachment 96626

How about a second anecdote, also funny?

When we first moved to Mexico, I was asked why I wanted to live with the illegals. I explained that Mexicans were legal in Mexico, and that the only illegal I knew was my American neighbor who had let her visa lapse.

It looks like you're referring to the citation being from the nineteenth century. Posts 10 and 11 refer to that

The argument for it being a conservative conspiracy has some supporting evidence, but the lone wolf nut job hypothesis. The supporting evidence is that the shooter was visible for so long and left unmolested until he began firing, and also that the body was quickly cremated (some suggested that that might be to destroy evidence), but the counterarguments are that if this were a professional hit, Trump should be dead, and I don't see how it serves conspirators to have the body cremated. Killed, yes, but cremated?

The incompetence of the shooter makes it seem like he acted alone. It was Squeaky Frohm - Sarah Jane Moore - John Hinckley incompetent, so I lean toward the lone nut job account.

One more wrinkle: This article discusses dissatisfaction with Trump coming from the Republican ranks. Would they try to kill him to get him out of the race? Maybe, but if that were the plan, why wait until so close to the election. Or maybe they spared him until Kamala entered the race, thinking he could win, but the link below suggests that the Republicans referred to want Trump gone, not in the White House. They want him to lose because of ongoing damage he is doing alienating the anti-choice contingent and damage the economy. It's a highly speculative article, but if the facts in it are correct about who's saying what, intriguing.

With friends like these…

You are a leftist...
It would be illogical to defend a lawless gang of conservatives who hire hit men...right?

 

[Pogo]

Do you know if an illegal border crossing person is legally entitled to seek asylum when in the USA even if entering illegally? Both as of now and if not relevant, then the case at some moment in the past?

Interesting problem is that you have to be in the US in order to file for asylum, you can't do it while you are in Mexico.
So somehow you have to cross the border first or get to a border station. Chat GPT sez

Claiming asylum in the U.S. involves several steps, and it’s important to follow the process carefully to increase the chances of a successful claim. Here’s a general overview:

1. Arrive in the U.S.: To apply for asylum, you must be physically present in the United States or at a port of entry.
2. File Your Asylum Application:
   
   • Within One Year: You generally must file your application within one year of your arrival in the U.S., although there are some exceptions for changed circumstances or extraordinary conditions.
   • Form I-589: Complete and submit Form I-589, Application for Asylum and for Withholding of Removal, to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS). This form can be filed online or by mail.
3. Prepare Your Application: Provide detailed information about why you are seeking asylum. This includes:
   
   • Personal narrative explaining your fear of persecution in your home country.
   • Evidence supporting your claim, such as documents, affidavits, or reports about conditions in your home country.
   • Any previous documentation related to your persecution, such as police reports or medical records.
4. Attend a Biometrics Appointment: After submitting your application, you will be scheduled for a biometrics appointment to provide fingerprints and photos for background checks.
5. Asylum Interview:
   
   • If you applied affirmatively (not in removal proceedings), you’ll have an interview with an asylum officer at a local USCIS office.
   • If you are in removal proceedings (e.g., apprehended by immigration enforcement), your claim will be heard by an immigration judge in a court.
6. Await a Decision:
   
   • Affirmative Asylum: After the interview, the asylum officer will make a decision or refer your case to an immigration court if your claim is not granted.
   • Defensive Asylum: The immigration judge will make a decision if you are in removal proceedings.
7. Attend a Hearing (if applicable): If your case is referred to an immigration court, you’ll have a hearing before an immigration judge to present your case.
8. Receive a Decision: If granted asylum, you will receive asylum status and can apply for a work permit. After one year, you may apply for a green card. If your application is denied, you may be able to appeal or seek other legal options.
9. Seek Legal Assistance: Given the complexity of asylum cases, it’s often beneficial to consult with an immigration attorney or accredited representative to help navigate the process and ensure that your claim is as strong as possible.

Remember, the asylum process can be lengthy and challenging, so thorough preparation and understanding of the requirements are essential.

Crossing the border itself is a misdemeanor.
Illegal Entry (8 U.S.C. § 1325): This statute makes it a misdemeanor to enter the U.S. without inspection or admission by an immigration officer. This includes crossing the border between official ports of entry. If convicted, individuals may face fines and imprisonment, and the offense can result in deportation.

All of which entitles you to a court date and since we don't have enough jails to keep all these people for the potential years involved many if not most are released into the country to live with relatives or wherever. The people in this process are "Undocumented Aliens" that the right wing is so afraid of. They are people who have left their home country because they can't safely live there anymore.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Interesting problem is that you have to be in the US in order to file for asylum, you can't do it while you are in Mexico.
So somehow you have to cross the border first or get to a border station. Chat GPT sez

Claiming asylum in the U.S. involves several steps, and it’s important to follow the process carefully to increase the chances of a successful claim. Here’s a general overview:

1. Arrive in the U.S.: To apply for asylum, you must be physically present in the United States or at a port of entry.
2. File Your Asylum Application:
   
   • Within One Year: You generally must file your application within one year of your arrival in the U.S., although there are some exceptions for changed circumstances or extraordinary conditions.
   • Form I-589: Complete and submit Form I-589, Application for Asylum and for Withholding of Removal, to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS). This form can be filed online or by mail.
3. Prepare Your Application: Provide detailed information about why you are seeking asylum. This includes:
   
   • Personal narrative explaining your fear of persecution in your home country.
   • Evidence supporting your claim, such as documents, affidavits, or reports about conditions in your home country.
   • Any previous documentation related to your persecution, such as police reports or medical records.
4. Attend a Biometrics Appointment: After submitting your application, you will be scheduled for a biometrics appointment to provide fingerprints and photos for background checks.
5. Asylum Interview:
   
   • If you applied affirmatively (not in removal proceedings), you’ll have an interview with an asylum officer at a local USCIS office.
   • If you are in removal proceedings (e.g., apprehended by immigration enforcement), your claim will be heard by an immigration judge in a court.
6. Await a Decision:
   
   • Affirmative Asylum: After the interview, the asylum officer will make a decision or refer your case to an immigration court if your claim is not granted.
   • Defensive Asylum: The immigration judge will make a decision if you are in removal proceedings.
7. Attend a Hearing (if applicable): If your case is referred to an immigration court, you’ll have a hearing before an immigration judge to present your case.
8. Receive a Decision: If granted asylum, you will receive asylum status and can apply for a work permit. After one year, you may apply for a green card. If your application is denied, you may be able to appeal or seek other legal options.
9. Seek Legal Assistance: Given the complexity of asylum cases, it’s often beneficial to consult with an immigration attorney or accredited representative to help navigate the process and ensure that your claim is as strong as possible.

Remember, the asylum process can be lengthy and challenging, so thorough preparation and understanding of the requirements are essential.

Crossing the border itself is a misdemeanor.
Illegal Entry (8 U.S.C. § 1325): This statute makes it a misdemeanor to enter the U.S. without inspection or admission by an immigration officer. This includes crossing the border between official ports of entry. If convicted, individuals may face fines and imprisonment, and the offense can result in deportation.

All of which entitles you to a court date and since we don't have enough jails to keep all these people for the potential years involved many if not most are released into the country to live with relatives or wherever. The people in this process are "Undocumented Aliens" that the right wing is so afraid of. They are people who have left their home country because they can't safely live there anymore.

Okay, but I am not sure I understand it well enough to answer my question of:
Do you know if an illegal border crossing person is legally entitled to seek asylum when in the USA even if entering illegally? Both as of now and if not relevant, then the case at some moment in the past?

 

[Pogo]

Okay, but I am not sure I understand it well enough to answer my question of:
Do you know if an illegal border crossing person is legally entitled to seek asylum when in the USA even if entering illegally? Both as of now and if not relevant, then the case at some moment in the past?

Yes you are allowed to file for asylum, in fact you have a year to do it.
A common scenario is to cross the border and then proceed to the nearest border patrol and turn yourself in.

Yes it seems absurd, but that is the law and the procedure.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes you are allowed to file for asylum, in fact you have a year to do it.
A common scenario is to cross the border and then proceed to the nearest border patrol and turn yourself in.

Yes it seems absurd, but that is the law and the procedure.

Thanks.

@Twilight Hue
As I suspected. So what do you think now. Follow this backwards if you have to.