Anti-immigrant rhetoric

[Tomef]

There is a difference between legal and illegal immigration. It is similar to the difference between a shopper and a shoplifter. The Left does not seem to understand this difference, encouraging both as though they are the same. Businesses encourage shoppers since they add value. They do not like shoplifters, since they have a lot of extra costs. It is simple math with Liberals arts not too keen on math, so this may still be hard for them to grasp.

A legal immigrant will take the time to go through a vetting process, that may take a year or more before entering the new country. When they enter there are no surprises and the host country is ready to accept them. An illegal alien tries to sneak into a country like a thief in the night. The analogy is having a party with a guest list so you can prepare what you will need to feed all the invited guests, versus a bunch of strangers crashing the party, so your invited guests get short changed. Legal immigrants do not like the illegal party crasher immigrants.

The Italian and Irish immigrants of the past, needed papers; documentation, to get onto ships to go to the USA and enter the USA. If they got sick on the journey they were turned back. That was legal immigration. I remember a story about my father's Parents and older siblings who immigrated from Poland just before WWI. The papers for one of their children was not correct, so he had to left behind with relatives. My Grandmother had to make a second journey to get him, after his paperwork was processed. The value of legal immigration is the host country can balance the needs of the vetted immigrants with the logistics of the citizens, so citizen resources are not overwhelmed, like is occurring with illegal immigration. The USA allows 1 million "legal" immigrants each year. That is the most of any country.

Trump's version of legal immigration was not to recruit the money pit crowd, who come here for free assistance has social costs. Rather he preferred we recruit the educated high tech crowd who would be self sufficient, with good paying jobs, and will add to the tax base. The Left has a more parasitic vision, needed for growing Government, which is better served with illegal aliens, who require free social services. Even violent gangs and other criminal enterprises like human trafficing allow government to grow, but also at the expense of the citizens.

The best solution so we all can have our way is, all those who think illegal immigration is good have to pay extra taxes to cover all the costs. The DNC will have a different tax bracket to cover all their handout programs, the Right does not want to support. There are already too many DNC parasites. The RNC wants to get out of the parasite racket and get a tax cut. As long as it does not impact me, the DNC is fine to tax itself higher and spend to their own money on their own self serving ideas. Trump's vision turns a profit while the Left vision adds to the debt. A tax break for the RNC will get rid of the profit and a higher tax on DNC will lower the debt.

Read the OP again, the question is about the rhetoric used.

What’s the basis for your claim that Trump is only referring to illegal immigration, other than that just being your general feeling? The context of his various comments doesn’t point to any distinction, but rather is directed at people arriving at the border, which is not illegal.

 

[Twilight Hue]

What's your point, in regard to this thread?

Those anti people you talk about? Well they wouldn't have hired them as police officers and I doubt you'll have any kind of an explanation for that.

 

[anotherneil]

Back to the first question, as your answer is to some other question that isn’t in the OP.

Yes it is in the OP - the question was what do I think & what I posted is my response to what I think about the OP content.

The OP material about Irish and Italians is referring to Irish and Italians who immigrated to the US; they went through the proper legal channels rather than by trespassing.

What Trump has spoken of is illegal aliens; they snuck into the US and avoided using the proper legal channels. When he speaks of rapists and murderers, he's referring to actual incidents with real victims of rape and murder that were committed by illegal aliens.

My mother is a hispanic immigrant (and my father is of Irish ancestry, BTW), and she came here to the US through proper legal channels. She's just as opposed to illegal aliens sneaking into the US as all other Americans who care about their country.

 

[Stevicus]

Do you mean different contextually, but the same attitude, or something else?

Similar attitude, as in that it's bigoted against some "other" group viewed as outside and dangerous. Context is different, though. In 1835, slavery was still a thing, and most of the West was still closed off as it had not yet been incorporated into the United States. There were apparently those who wanted America to be an "all-WASP" society. This is what motivated such atrocities as the Trail of Tears. And even among Abolitionists, there were those who wanted to end slavery, but they didn't want the freed slaves to stay in America.

Nowadays, conservatives claim that it's no longer about skin color or other immutable conditions from birth, but more about culture, which is mutable. A lot of people aren't really buying into that and believe that it's still about skin color, except they won't admit it. But either way, it seems similarly bigoted in its blanket condemnation of entire groups of people.

 

[Estro Felino]

As has been noted, this is old text, but not appreciably different from Trumpian xenophobia apart from who the immigrants are today. Then, it was the Irish and Italians, now, its Hispanics and Muslims.

No. As said, it's been redirected to brown people, and Trump characterizes his boogeymen differently - diseased, rapists, insane asylum escapees, drug and human traffickers - but it's the same bigotry used for the same purpose. As you know, it was Trump's primary campaign issue in 2016. It's what the wall was about and the sentiment to make the Mexicans pay for it. It's what MAGA means - keep America a white Christian patriarchy.

That is incorrect. It's still a manufactured wedge issue. America needs its immigrant laborers. It's the indigenous Americans and their guns and hatreds that you need to watch out for there, not the guy picking lettuce and sending his income home to another country.

Also incorrect. He died because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time in a country with serious mental health and gun issues and a serious breach of security protocols.

Trump himself is the source of anti-Trump hatred, not "the left." I detest the man because of what he says and does, not because I was told to.

It's common in the States for MAGA conservatives to project themselves onto others and assume that their minds are being made up for them, as if nobody can filter out indoctrination, as if the left or the media have the power to capture all minds subjected to it. In such minds, Trump is detested because people are conditioned to think that way, not because the man is detestable. It's a manifestation of the false consensus effect:

"In psychology, the false consensus effect, also known as consensus bias, is a pervasive cognitive bias that causes people to "see their own behavioral choices and judgments as relatively common and appropriate to existing circumstances". In other words, they assume that their personal qualities, characteristics, beliefs, and actions are relatively widespread through the general population."

This just means that if your beliefs are passively and uncritically received, you assume that that is human nature across the board, and that those disagreeing with you also came to their positions because others decided to make them think what they think.

There's also a touch of Dunning-Kruger effect there, which is described as people overestimating their capabilities, but in my experience is more common in people underestimating the ability of others. It's not so much that they see themselves as experts as that they aren't aware that expertise exists, which is also false consensus. In their minds, everybody is as clueless as they are, but they don't see it in those terms. To them, they are normal, and all opinions are equivalent.

So no to the idea that the left spreads hatred or is indoctrinated with hatred. That's the MAGA right, but for reasons just given, most don't know that and believe what you do.

This shooter only settled on Trump. He just wanted to kill somebody. From Gunman in Trump assassination attempt saw rally as 'target of opportunity,' FBI official says

"The FBI analysis of his online search history reveals a “sustained, detailed effort to plan an attack on some event, meaning he looked at any number of events or targets,"

Trump is a racist. Everybody not a white male with money is inferior to him in his mind. Non-white countries are sh*thole countries.

Look..
I believe there is à serious.psychiatric problem involving men's sexuality behind this insane hatred for Trump.

It is all about sexuality. And that assassin named Crooks suffered from that.

 

[Audie]

Not really. A similar comparison would be something like 'Harris says drug companies are evil, sub-human scum' or something of that sort.

You're driftin' too far from the shore.

 

[Audie]

'Percieved' as in the same words - murderers, rapists, not human, sub-human, 'poisoning the blood' of the country, an invasion, bad hombres and so on. The language is the same, the words used by Trump are the same as those used by anti-immigrant opportunists in the 19th C and earlier. Your perception of my bias does not magically change those words into words which are not the same.

I don't understand what you are asking. Do you mean you want to know what the phrase 'some other place' means? As I already said in 2 posts, 'some other place' means another place. If your question is about something else, what is it?

What's unclear about it?

The language is the same.

Is there a difference anyone (i.e. not me) is aware of? <- this is a question. I don't have a 'secret' opinion about it. As I have said several times, the language used is the same, the language indicates a similar attitude. I am asking a question, in the traditional fashion, to see what other people think.

If any of that unclear to you, you'll need to explain why, as I don't understand what you think is missing.

" some other" limits it to certain ones.

I will assume you don't just say things
but had specifics in mind when you
added the qualifier " some".

Secret or not you're unwilling to just say yes or no.
I got that .

 

[Tomef]

" some other" limits it to certain ones.

Some other has the same meaning as any other. E.g I don’t feel like going for a run, I’ll go some other day, or ‘when will you (fulfil some plan)’ ‘some day’, same use of some to mean another time. Some other place is any other place that the two mentioned.

 

[Tomef]

Secret or not you're unwilling to just say yes or no.
I got that .

You’ve invented some scenario in your mind, I can’t answer to that. As I said, I think the rhetoric is the same. I would like to find out what other people think, in order to know what other people think. It may be that there is some circumstance or issue I’m not aware of that has some relevance. Whatever else you think about it an act of your imagination.

 

[Tomef]

You're driftin' too far from the shore.

Nope, the language is the same. Read the OP again.

 

[Tomef]

What Trump has spoken of is illegal aliens; they snuck into the US and avoided using the proper legal channels. When he speaks of rapists and murderers, he's referring to actual incidents with real victims of rape and murder that were committed by illegal aliens.

Please provide some examples of Trump referring to specific incidents and specifically illegal immigrants, rather than general insults directed at large numbers of people approaching the border, who could not in any sense be considered illegal, not having attempted to cross yet, the majority of whom attempted to enter the country legally. Perhaps you have some incidence in mind, if you can link to a coherent account of it that would be appreciated.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes it is in the OP - the question was what do I think & what I posted is my response to what I think about the OP content.

The OP material about Irish and Italians is referring to Irish and Italians who immigrated to the US; they went through the proper legal channels rather than by trespassing.

What Trump has spoken of is illegal aliens; they snuck into the US and avoided using the proper legal channels. When he speaks of rapists and murderers, he's referring to actual incidents with real victims of rape and murder that were committed by illegal aliens.

My mother is a hispanic immigrant (and my father is of Irish ancestry, BTW), and she came here to the US through proper legal channels. She's just as opposed to illegal aliens sneaking into the US as all other Americans who care about their country.

Bingo!

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Look..
I believe there is à serious.psychiatric problem involving men's sexuality behind this insane hatred for Trump.

It is all about sexuality. And that assassin named Crooks suffered from that.

Any evidence for that, or it is just something you believe? Please clarify.

 

[Audie]

You’ve invented some scenario in your mind, I can’t answer to that. As I said, I think the rhetoric is the same. I would like to find out what other people think, in order to know what other people think. It may be that there is some circumstance or issue I’m not aware of that has some relevance. Whatever else you think about it an act of your imagination.

Lotta words and finger pointing
instead of some forthright response.

Much like your avoidance when asked what
other countries you are talking about.

" imagined scenario"?

I've no idea why anyone would be so
pointlessly evasive.

But never mind, there's nothing worth another word.

 

[Audie]

You’ve invented some scenario in your mind, I can’t answer to that. As I said, I think the rhetoric is the same. I would like to find out what other people think, in order to know what other people think. It may be that there is some circumstance or issue I’m not aware of that has some relevance. Whatever else you think about it an act of your imagination.

Lotta words and finger pointing
instead of some forthright response.

Much like
your avoidance when asked what
other countries you are talking about.

" imagined scenario"?

I've no idea why anyone would be so
pointlessly evasive.

But never mind, there's nothing worth another word.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Lotta words and finger pointing
instead of some forthright response.

Much like
your avoidance when asked what
other countries you are talking about.

" imagined scenario"?

I've no idea why anyone would be so
pointlessly evasive.

But never mind, there's nothing worth another word.

Double post.

 

[Audie]

Bingo!

What I went through getting admitted on
a student visa ( and being told
midterm i had two weeks to go home)
the process my relatives have gone through
to get in, let alone stay is in grotesque comtrast
to what goes on at mexican border.

And, like me ( I didn't and don't want to live in the usa)
they see american policy / implementation as insane.

 

[anotherneil]

Please provide some examples of Trump referring to specific incidents and specifically illegal immigrants, rather than general insults directed at large numbers of people approaching the border, who could not in any sense be considered illegal, not having attempted to cross yet, the majority of whom attempted to enter the country legally. Perhaps you have some incidence in mind, if you can link to a coherent account of it that would be appreciated.

Oh, you mean like these?

 

[Kathryn]

Yes it is in the OP - the question was what do I think & what I posted is my response to what I think about the OP content.

The OP material about Irish and Italians is referring to Irish and Italians who immigrated to the US; they went through the proper legal channels rather than by trespassing.

What Trump has spoken of is illegal aliens; they snuck into the US and avoided using the proper legal channels. When he speaks of rapists and murderers, he's referring to actual incidents with real victims of rape and murder that were committed by illegal aliens.

My mother is a hispanic immigrant (and my father is of Irish ancestry, BTW), and she came here to the US through proper legal channels. She's just as opposed to illegal aliens sneaking into the US as all other Americans who care about their country.

My daughter in law is Korean and she is now a legal citizen and has an American passport and all that jazz, and she is like your mom. My gosh, it cost them time and money to gain citizenship and she wants everyone else to do the same!

 

[Tomef]

Lotta words and finger pointing
instead of some forthright response.

Much like your avoidance when asked what
other countries you are talking about.

" imagined scenario"?

I've no idea why anyone would be so
pointlessly evasive.

But never mind, there's nothing worth another word.

I really have no idea what you mean.

Some other = another. The same meaning. Some other country / another country, as per the OP, some other country than Italy/Ireland. Just pointing out that if you have an alternative meaning for 'some other' that isn't something I can answer to.

What exactly do you think I'm evading? It can only be something that you have imagined. Once again, I think the rhetoric is the same, I'm wondering if anyone has a convincing argument to justify Trump referring to immigrants as animals, sub-human, etc. Not having a comprehensive knowledge of the whole issue, at this point I'm open to anything useful and coherent that might help me to understand why anyone might think it's perfectly normal to do that.