Antitheism?

[Curious George]

It is always best to ask what someone means by the term when they use it, but when I see someone identifying as "anti-theist" it reads to me as a position of bigotry akin to being racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. And while bigotry always has its rationale (humans are good at rationalizing anything, after all), to call it a "rational position" does a disservice to the term.

I don't think it is quite on that level. Why do you think it is?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is always best to ask what someone means by the term when they use it, but when I see someone identifying as "anti-theist" it reads to me as a position of bigotry akin to being racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. And while bigotry always has its rationale (humans are good at rationalizing anything, after all), to call it a "rational position" does a disservice to the term.

I agree that it is a form of bigotry.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't think it is quite on that level. Why do you think it is?

A couple of reasons, I think.

First is the simple fact that "theism" is not some single thing. It's a simplistic and superficial label that tells you next to something about someone, much like the color of someone's skin or the genitals they happened to have been born with. Theism is simply acceptance of at least one deity and "deity" can literally be anything. To some people, deity is transcendent and watches over us. To some, deity is the land you walk on and the air you breathe. To others, deity is love, or awe, or creative inspiration. Or it might be all of these things and more if you're a polytheist.

Second is that the implication of being opposed to something is that you want to get rid of it. This means we're talking about ripping out what is a key component of some people's way of life and destroying it. To be blunt, it means we're talking about form of cultural genocide. And considering celebrating the gods - the practice of theism that becomes religion - creates beautiful works of art, strengthens communities, and brings meaning to people's lives, I really can't understand why anyone would want to eliminate that. Yeah, okay, so you get those things without theism? Good for you. But other people like it. Leave them alone to their favorite things. I don't burn your Star Wars DVDs, and you don't burn my Star Trek DVDs, yeah?

If you want to talk about specific abuses of theology or religion, that's fine. But the broad brush is not okay with me.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

First is the simple fact that "theism" is not some single thing. It's a simplistic and superficial label that tells you next to something about someone, much like the color of someone's skin or the genitals they happened to have been born with. Theism is simply acceptance of at least one deity and "deity" can literally be anything.

This hits the nail on the head of why I would never describe myself as antitheist. Nine times out of ten the antitheist argument is tunnel visioned to Abrahamic religions and what little they know about some strict forms of Hinduism and Buddhism. And their complaints, rather than being about theism, per say, is really about either authoritarianism, tribalism, or traditionalism. And I think it's much clearer and more specific to say you are opposed to those concepts and why.

 

[Curious George]

A couple of reasons, I think.

First is the simple fact that "theism" is not some single thing. It's a simplistic and superficial label that tells you next to something about someone, much like the color of someone's skin or the genitals they happened to have been born with. Theism is simply acceptance of at least one deity and "deity" can literally be anything. To some people, deity is transcendent and watches over us. To some, deity is the land you walk on and the air you breathe. To others, deity is love, or awe, or creative inspiration. Or it might be all of these things and more if you're a polytheist.

Second is that the implication of being opposed to something is that you want to get rid of it. This means we're talking about ripping out what is a key component of some people's way of life and destroying it. To be blunt, it means we're talking about form of cultural genocide. And considering celebrating the gods - the practice of theism that becomes religion - creates beautiful works of art, strengthens communities, and brings meaning to people's lives, I really can't understand why anyone would want to eliminate that. Yeah, okay, so you get those things without theism? Good for you. But other people like it. Leave them alone to their favorite things. I don't burn your Star Wars DVDs, and you don't burn my Star Trek DVDs, yeah?

If you want to talk about specific abuses of theology or religion, that's fine. But the broad brush is not okay with me.

While I agree religion is beneficial in many ways, (hence I am not an antitheist) attacking a worldview is very different from attacking something like the color of your skin or the genitals between your legs. If I attack Nazism am I no better than a racist? If you could show that without exception a person who was against theism had to also be against a theist, I could understand the reason to associate the term with that which you do. However I do not see the belief that at particular worldview is harmful as bigotry. Let us examine something I imagine we both love in order to underscore this point: music.

If a person believed that music was harmful, so they crusaded against it by preaching the harms that it caused, by passing laws to prevent it, and by raising their children without it...would they be bigots? I don't think so. Now, if they went around condemning people because of their choice to listen to music, and seeking disparate treatment for those who choose to play music...then we could say that they rise to a level of bigotry.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

If a person believed that music was harmful, so they crusaded against it by preaching the harms that it caused, by passing laws to prevent it, and by raising their children without it...would they be bigots? I don't think so. Now, if they went around condemning people because of their choice to listen to music, and seeking disparate treatment for those who choose to play music...then we could say that they rise to a level of bigotry.

IMO this smacks of 'I don't hate gays, I love gays. I just hate homosexuality.' Either the hatred of the practice or hatred of the person thinly veiled as hatred of the practice would be bigoted in my view. Someone saying 'I think mixed racial marriages are harmful' would pretty much always be considered racism, and irrational. I similarly think antitheism (as its often presented, not necessarily all cases. It's not an organized group with one POV after all) is similarly irrational because it either is blaming theism for more general problems with ideals not connected to theism or is stereotyping what theism is to a reduction to the absurd.

 

[LuisDantas]

I noticed there seems to be a small number of Antitheists here, and I just wanted know what others thought about this theological position.

I don't know whether it qualifies as a theological position. But it sure is legit and badly needed.

I am gonna ask two general questions, but feel free to give any input you like.

What are the difference between Antitheism and Atheism?

In a nutshell, atheism is a very inconsequential and personal characteristic.

Antitheism is an opinion about the convenience of theism itself for the society in general.

There is definitely a compatibility between the two, but they exist in different spheres.

Is Antitheism a rational position?

In a world such as ours, where theism is an enabler for so much abuse, yes, it certainly is.


Edited to add: also, theism is very often simply a bad distraction, which harms people's priorities and therefore causes enormous damage.

In that sense, it should be opposed simply because it takes up valuable attention and resources that are necessary for worthier pursuits. It is really no different from opposition to, say, military expenses.

 

[JustWondering]

It is always best to ask what someone means by the term when they use it, but when I see someone identifying as "anti-theist" it reads to me as a position of bigotry akin to being racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. And while bigotry always has its rationale (humans are good at rationalizing anything, after all), to call it a "rational position" does a disservice to the term.

When I see politicians dehumanizing members of the LGBT community for instance, based on what their god "wants" antitheism becomes opposition to bigotry.

 

[LuisDantas]

I do believe that theism and religion are harmful to society.

Theism, far more often than not, indeed is. One could argue that it is not an inherent trait of theism itself, and I just might agree.

Religion, however, I see under a much more positive light. It has historically been carried off-track far too often, but it is still worth salvaging and nurturing nonetheless.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is always best to ask what someone means by the term when they use it, but when I see someone identifying as "anti-theist" it reads to me as a position of bigotry akin to being racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. And while bigotry always has its rationale (humans are good at rationalizing anything, after all), to call it a "rational position" does a disservice to the term.

I wish I understood why you think so. But I don't, despite converging with your views very often elsewhere.

 

[LuisDantas]

Usually anti-theism is part of a political movement that views particular theists as a problem group. I think of major political movements when I think of anti-theism.

I guess I am an exception then. I am not even aware of any antitheist movements.

Its a word that sounds nonsensical. It appears to mean that someone becomes an activist against theists and their actions rather than against God. If they were to take action against God they'd be theists.

Antitheism is opposition to theism, not to theists.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

When I see politicians dehumanizing members of the LGBT community for instance, based on what their god "wants" antitheism becomes opposition to bigotry.

Whereas any rational individual would know to blame the politician, rather than their twisted grip on a theology. Further, rational people would known not to damn everyone who believes in a god because of what one believer of a religion that doesn't resemble even a fraction of world religions does and thinks.

 

[JustWondering]

Whereas any rational individual would know to blame the politician, rather than their twisted grip on a theology. Further, rational people would known not to damn everyone who believes in a god because of what one believer of a religion that doesn't resemble even a fraction of world religions does and thinks.

Humans aren't rational. The fact that the majority of our species believe in a variety of invisible, magical beings for which no evidence exists in any form is undeniable evidence that our species is not rational.

Secondly, politicians don't elect themselves. The only reason a politician would try to pass anti-LGBT legislature is if they know a majority of their constituents want it, because they want to be re-elected. So I have the rational stance in this argument, nice try though.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Humans aren't rational. The fact that the majority of our species believe in a variety of invisible, magical beings for which no evidence exists in any form is undeniable evidence that our species is not rational.

Secondly, politicians don't elect themselves. The only reason a politician would try to pass anti-LGBT legislature is if they know a majority of their constituents want it, because they want to be re-elected. So I have the rational stance in this argument, nice try though.

The vast majority of Supreme Court justices which overturned bans on gay marriages were Christian. Christianity isn't the problem, authoritarian and traditionalist thinking is. And that's not exclusive to, nor implicit in, Christianity, let alone theism as a whole.
Re: Authoritarian antitheist governments have historically been pretty crappy towards LGBT too.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The fact that the majority of our species believe in a variety of invisible, magical beings for which no evidence exists in any form

1. Not all beliefs state that gods are "invisible" or "magical."
2. "Evidence" - as it were - exists (and keep in mind that you've quantified "in any form.") It's just not evidence to which you find convincing.

is undeniable evidence that our species is not rational.

Then allow me to re-word it: a reasonable, level-headed, intelligent person would not jump the aforementioned ideological gun, broad-brush tarring an entire diverse group of people based on their own narrow-minded misgivings.

The only reason a politician would try to pass anti-LGBT legislature is if they know a majority of their constituents want it, because they want to be re-elected.

Frankly, politicians "electing themselves" is entirely up to debate. That said, they very clearly try to pass laws that are known to be unpopular, but carry their interests at heart. LGBT rights carry a majority favorability in America. As does gender equality, women's rights, and a number of other hot-button issues. *Gasp!* I guess politics is corrupt, that the will of the people isn't done. But you're probably right; it's theism's fault.

 

[JustWondering]

The vast majority of Supreme Court justices which overturned bans on gay marriages were Christian. Christianity isn't the problem, authoritarian and traditionalist thinking is. And that's not exclusive to, nor implicit in, Christianity, let alone theism as a whole.
Re: Authoritarian antitheist governments have historically been pretty crappy towards LGBT too.

I agree. That's why I led with the main problem. Human beings are not rational creatures. We don't learn from our mistakes and repeat them, over and over again.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I agree. That's why I led with the main problem. Human beings are not rational creatures. We don't learn from our mistakes and repeat them, over and over again.

Why liken antithesim to fighting for LGBT rights then, when theism isn't the problem for LGBT, nor has antitheism been better for LGBT historically?

 

[JustWondering]

1. Not all beliefs state that gods are "invisible" or "magical."

That's true.

2. "Evidence" - as it were - exists (and keep in mind that you've quantified "in any form.") It's just not evidence to which you find convincing.

Also true, I require some form of physical evidence before believing some kind of entity/being exists. If fossils of dinosaurs didn't exist I would deny the existence of dinosaurs.

Then allow me to re-word it: a reasonable, level-headed, intelligent person would not jump the aforementioned ideological gun, broad-brush tarring an entire diverse group of people based on their own narrow-minded misgivings.

So you're saying people shouldn't disagree with and speak out against bigotry that is backed in part or soley on religious grounds? I think you need to clarify your stance/argument.

Frankly, politicians "electing themselves" is entirely up to debate. That said, they very clearly try to pass laws that are known to be unpopular, but carry their interests at heart. LGBT rights carry a majority favorability in America. As does gender equality, women's rights, and a number of other hot-button issues. *Gasp!* I guess politics is corrupt, that the will of the people isn't done. But you're probably right; it's theism's fault.

When a religion promotes bigotry or sexism, yes, in that situation it is theisms fault.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I noticed there seems to be a small number of Antitheists here, and I just wanted know what others thought about this theological position.

I am gonna ask two general questions, but feel free to give any input you like.

What are the difference between Antitheism and Atheism?

Is Antitheism a rational position?

Atheism and theism claim their position/belief of gods. Theism claims belief A- theism claims the opposite.

Anti-theism is saying they are against the idea of belief in gods/theism. Anti- being against.

Atheists and antitheist seem to develop their own views around the basic definitions of the two words.

 

[JustWondering]

Why liken antithesim to fighting for LGBT rights then, when theism isn't the problem for LGBT, nor has antitheism been better for LGBT historically?

My original post was a response to someone saying they equate antitheism with bigotry. I provided a situation where antitheism could oppose bigotry.