Antitheism?

[LuisDantas]

In my experience anti-theists are defined by their universal condemnation of anything spiritual or religious irrespective of it's realness.

Is that so?

I have to wonder how unusual I may be then. My beef is with theism proper, not spirituality or religion. I actually see theism as a threat to both religion and the popular understanding of what religion is.

 

[LuisDantas]

Wow! Learn something everyday. I'm not an atheist!

Lucky boy. Most of us have been told that we are not atheists for decades.

 

[Augustus]

Is Antitheism a rational position?

Not the way most people argue for it.

A Humanist antitheist can hold almost identical ethical views as a moderate Christian yet believe that the Christian's beliefs are primitive and harmful while the Humanist's represent the peak of human evolution.

They vastly overstate the role of theistic religions in driving historical violence, with many genuinely believing that it is the number one cause of historical violence.

They tend to overstate the rationality of their own worldview and the role of myths/fictional narratives in all belief systems.

Many antitheists basically follow a universalist ideology where theism fulfills the role of the devil corrupting man's true nature, and Reason fulfills the role of the Messiah who will deliver salvation unto the world. This position is certainly not based on any actual evidence so doesn't fall within my (or their) definitions of rational.

 

[Augustus]

How much of an active stance are you people seeing in antitheism exactly?

The way some of you talk it almost feels like it would be a paramilitary group as opposed to an ideological stance.

Historically it often has been. The French Revolution and multiple Communist regimes have the clearest examples.

When you think that theistic religions cause significant harm to society, it isn't surprising that some people believe that violence is part of the solution.

 

[LuisDantas]

Historically it often has been. The French Revolution and multiple Communist regimes have the clearest examples.

Is there even any hint that the French Revolution had some element of antitheism? I don't think so. It had an element of anticlericalism, I suppose.

Communism is in many senses atypical. In any case, it can hardly be compared to present day antitheism.

When you think that theistic religions cause significant harm to society,

Which is by this point pretty much a demonstrated fact...

it isn't surprising that some people believe that violence is part of the solution.

It isn't? Why so?

 

[Willamena]

I noticed there seems to be a small number of Antitheists here, and I just wanted know what others thought about this theological position.

I am gonna ask two general questions, but feel free to give any input you like.

What are the difference between Antitheism and Atheism?

Is Antitheism a rational position?

Antitheism is influenced by biases, usually fear.

 

[Willamena]

Atheism says no gods exist is true. Anti theism says no gods exist is true and the belief in non existent gods is harmful.

That is how I parse it, too.

 

[Augustus]

Is there even any hint that the French Revolution had some element of antitheism? I don't think so. It had an element of anticlericalism, I suppose.

An element at least partly responsible for tens if not hundreds of thousands of deaths (see for example the peasant rebellion against the Republicans in the Vendee)

Antitheism and anticlericalism have a significant degree of overlap being that antitheism is often used to describe hostility to theistic religions.

Regardless of this, the Cult of Reason was antitheistic in nature.

Which is by this point pretty much a demonstrated fact...

It is a fact that religion has been, and continues to be, the motivator for many harmful acts throughout history (as has money, land, politics, ideology and countless other things).

That it causes significant harm makes an almighty assumption that whatever beliefs existed in place of theistic religion would be more benign. Given the atrocities of the 20th C, this would require a particular kind of special pleading.

Ultimately though it is completely unknowable.

It isn't? Why so?

Evidence, history and human nature.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hmm... I wasn't aware that people's grasp of antitheism was quite this confused and misinformed.

This thread sure is enlightening. Time to visit the public statements department, apparently.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I guess I am an exception then. I am not even aware of any antitheist movements.

A lot of people have posted since this reply. Yes, I realize you do not like theism. I may have forgotten the specific term. I did know know you called yourself antitheist or that it was a common thing. The movements are cleansings such as the French Revolution, the Stalinists, the Moaists etc. Once in a while someone decides its time for a cleansing, and it may be a theist or a nontheist, so I do not mean to imply antitheism is genocidal. It seems that antitheist is a political, somewhat more assertive word than atheist. An atheist is not taking action or is not opposing theism, but an antitheist is. The word connotes it.

Antitheism is opposition to theism, not to theists.

I understand. Its what it ironically sounds like, however. If there is no deity then how can you oppose one? If I jump and shake my fist at God and threaten God (which could happen), what am I? Am I not a true 'Antitheist' at that moment? I both believe in and oppose God then. That is what this term sounds like, even if that is not what it means. If on the other hand I do not believe in gods, then I can only shake my fist at followers or practices and beliefs. Couldn't a better, more precise term be found?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The word "bigot" has - IMO - come to mean something different than the strict definition. The way "bigot" is typically used these days, I disagree that anti-theists are bigoted. They are however critical.

I agree that "bigot" has come to mean something different than defined. I blame certain groups for that, as it's pretty much become an ideological buzzword like "racist" or "X-phobe". However, by definition antitheism is bigoted. A bigot - by definition - is someone who has a very strong - often unreasonable - belief, and will not listen to or accept the opinions of anyone who disagrees. Now, before the gun is jumped yes, theists can be - and quite often are - bigots as well. I'm not claiming we're perfect.

That said - while we're breaking down words - whereas atheism is simply the lack of belief gods (a-theism, quite literally "no belief in gods"), antitheism is active opposition to the belief in gods. Anti-theism = "against theism". (As an aside, for this very reason I am also against "antisocial" as a term used to describe introverts; in no way are they necessarily against and opposed to society or social interaction.) The question is--why?

The anti-theists I know do not take a simple-minded orientation towards their criticism of theism.

Thus far - with the exception of a couple in this thread - every antitheist that I've had the displeasure of entertaining has viewed theism through the rigid example of Christianity. They would be more accurately described as anti-Christians, as when pressed against examples given of why theism is bad, their response is usually something akin to "Well, I'm talking about religion." And then can be whittled down to organized religion, then doctrinal religion, and then eventually Christianity itself.

In my experiences, antitheists rely on the "magical sky daddy" theme, opposing all gods as though they were Yahweh. They use criticisms based on the beliefs of Christianity, namely that of a deity being Omni-whatever. They oppose "oppression and brainwashing" - a noble objection, in it's own right - but often contribute that to all theists.

If there are more level-headed antitheists out there, that's good. But the name is still problematic in and of itself.

enough of theism is counter-productive that it's worth being critical of the ideas most typically associated with theism.

By population? Yes. Taking a particular religion or spiritual path (i.e. theism) as one? I don't think so. At best, you've got three among hundreds.

But in essence, I agree. Being critical is a good thing. The only problem is that the ideology isn't "theism-critical", it's "anti-theism." How a person behaves is one thing, but being critical of an ideological title because of what it suggests is only fair.

 

[icehorse]

As an antitheist, this thread is showing me a lot of misunderstanding of the stance. Are there some famous antitheists you guys are using to make these determinations?

I want you to rule out fascists and totalitarians. The antitheists I know and know of are against dogma, which means we are against fascism and totalitarianism.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

None famous, really. Just antitheists who've I'd had interaction with.

 

[Cephus]

I noticed there seems to be a small number of Antitheists here, and I just wanted know what others thought about this theological position.

I am gonna ask two general questions, but feel free to give any input you like.

What are the difference between Antitheism and Atheism?

Is Antitheism a rational position?

Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. Antitheism is the philosophical opposition to religion. They are two different, but completely rational positions to hold.

 

[Cephus]

I agree, but by definition anti theists are convinced their are no deities.

No, by definition, antitheists are convinced that religion is crap. You could both be a theist, someone who believes in a god, and an antitheist, one who hates the concept of religion.

 

[Cephus]

The vast majority of Supreme Court justices which overturned bans on gay marriages were Christian. Christianity isn't the problem, authoritarian and traditionalist thinking is. And that's not exclusive to, nor implicit in, Christianity, let alone theism as a whole.
Re: Authoritarian antitheist governments have historically been pretty crappy towards LGBT too.

That's because the job of the Supreme Court is to weigh the case in question on constitutional grounds, not on the basis of their religious beliefs. It is their job to leave their faith at the door. Far too often they don't do so, unfortunately.

 

[Cephus]

Is that so?

I have to wonder how unusual I may be then. My beef is with theism proper, not spirituality or religion. I actually see theism as a threat to both religion and the popular understanding of what religion is.

Whereas my beef is with irrationality and people believing things for which there is no objective evidence. That means that all of it, theism, spirituality and religion, are my enemy.

 

[icehorse]

None famous, really. Just antitheists who've I'd had interaction with.

As a parallel example (probably better than my last), I study horsemanship. The style I study puts the well being of the horse first. But my style is unusual. If someone was to claim that horsemanship is cruel, I would have to agree. Of course we could qualify the statement a bit and say "horsemanship is often cruel". But still, I have to accept that horsemanship is often enough cruel, that it's a fair characterization of the entire discipline.

So the anti-theists I know and know of think "theism is often counter-productive". A common linguistic way to summarize such a position is to say that we are anti-theists. To make more black and white assumptions about anti-theists is, I think, disingenuous.

 

[Cephus]

So the anti-theists I know and know of think "theism is often counter-productive". A common linguistic way to summarize such a position is to say that we are anti-theists. To make more black and white assumptions about anti-theists is, I think, disingenuous.

I don't think it's often counterproductive, I think it's ALWAYS counterproductive. I think that believing in things for which there is no objective evidence is, by its very nature, harmful. It doesn't matter what the theist gets out of it, it is a faulty way of looking at the world. It doesn't matter how the theist acts, they are operating out of a delusion. All religion is bad. All irrationality is harmful.

 

[idav]

Hmm... I wasn't aware that people's grasp of antitheism was quite this confused and misinformed.

This thread sure is enlightening. Time to visit the public statements department, apparently.

It could be that some antitheists are more zealous than others and possibly have agendas, like trying to rid the world of religion or something. I don't particularly get the demonizing based on how someone thinks the universe came into existence.