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Any Defenses of Materialism?

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Ha. Ha. Sayak. That is not mechanism of how consciousness is created in brain.

Let us however, see what your brain theology means.

We know that the brain is a fixture of one's waking world.

But according to you, brain represents everything. So , when everything is deleted, does brain remain as the Super God, emanating Brain Consciousness -- Krishna Consciousness?

So, you are replacing Brahman or God with Brain. It is a fine theology.
I did not understand the head or tail of what you were getting at. What is deleted? We believe that the best model of our waking experiences is realism, that much of the objects observed in our phenomenological field exist independent of us observing them (the Nyaya-Vaisesika position). In that model there is no problem.

In the phenomenological model, there are no deletions. Everything ends when phenomenology of consciousness ends, since the person is annihilated whose perspective it was and for whose interest the model was constructed in the first place. Its a completely instrumental model with no ontological commitment at all. Its the Buddhist-Nagarjuna essenceless phenomenology where every aspect is only conventionally or instrumentally held.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your wholesale skepticism of neural imaging technology based on a paper
I'm not wholly skeptical of neuroimaging technology, as my field is neuroscience, I began my graduate research with neuroimaging research and (despite my increasing concentration of the physics of the brain and complex systems which, to the extent neuroimaging technologies are used, aren't used in ways that can be said to reduce the "mind" to the "brain" in any coherent manner), I have continued to work on neuroimaging research projects/experiments.
I linked to an open sources paper in an edited volume not because that constitutes anything remotely resembling the reasons which underlie my views (I've had my current opinions reflected in recent posts for some time, certainly before reading the source I linked to), but because I found it to be a source which demonstrates something of the fundamental problems in neuroscience research yet which is accessible to the non-specialist. I can give you thousands upon thousands of peer-reviewed journal articles, peer-reviewed/edited papers in volumes from various series or conference proceedings, monographs, doctoral theses, etc. Most of these are vastly more technical and few are more illustrative of current issues in human brain mapping/cognitive neuroscience imaging methodologies than the one I linked to (even the study upon which it is based is far more complicated yet says nothing more in terms of consequences/conclusions than the source I linked to).

The scientific books that deal with the neuroscience of consciousness show great awareness of the limitations of these techniques and base their conclusions only on extremely well validated results.
The "neuroscience of consciousness" literature is fundamentally based on assumptions yielded from results of correlations among various behavioral experimental paradigms that have utilized signal data from complex neuroimaging technologies subjected to statistical analysis (95% of which is inherently flawed because of the reliance on NHST). In computational and theoretical neuroscience (i.e., in the fields of neuroscience which formulate actual models of neural activity reducible to physiological properties derived from chemistry and physics), all connections with cognition are speculations that are not empirically based, and moreover are extremely limited (they consist of models that allow for the kind of "learning" and "memory" insects and plants are capable of, and nothing more). Models that describe pre-conscious yet conceptual processing have no such models, and there isn't any agreed upon method for approaching the ways in which one should begin to build such reductionist models of consciousness/"mind" (among those researchers that believe this can be done at all). Hence the reliance that is ubiquitous in the cognitive neuroscience literature on NCC's (neural correlates of consciousness) which are based upon various averaging procedures in and among subjects of signal data and the statistical analyses of these in terms of averages from responses in the behavioral portions of such experiments.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Its obvious in the case of entanglement that the "two" photons are not in fact two photons but part of a single wavefunction.
This is impossible. First, the wavefunction is an abstract entity which resides in a finite or infinite dimensional (complex) vector space, not in space (or in spacetime). Second, since the early 80s this "single wavefunction" has been detected as two photons, not as one (not as one "anything", let alone a single "wavefunction"). Third, the wavefunction describes the dynamical evolution of the system in terms of infinitely many possible states that are never realized/observed. It cannot correspond to a single photon even if it is possible to speak of it as describing a single ontological system (albeit one that can't be measured; see e.g., Alter, O., & Yamamoto, Y. (2001). Quantum Measurement of a Single System. Wiley.). Fourth, a "single wavefunction" can describe composite systems. Fifth, whatever the ontological realization of wavefunctions, when e.g., Gisin et al. obtained such correlations from systems separated by several kilometers, even if the wavefunction were supposed to describe a singular entity, then this entity is immaterial, nonlocal, and obtains observable properties in one region of our space or spacetime as soon as (and only after) an observable property of this immaterial system is determined via measurement/interaction in another region of space/spacetime. Thus the causes of the result of measurement outcomes (the registration values obtained via measurement) are again correlated and again follow 1-4 yet cannot be reduced any common "cause", let alone "identity".
The photons do not exist as individuated entities before the decoherence event.
Decoherence isn't necessary or relevant. First, because this is simply false. We can detect single photons without interference and decoherence cannot explain these correlations nor (if accurate as an explanation of the quantum-to-classical transition) is it relevant here, since the experiments ensure coherence until the projection/interference of the individual photons (decoherence isn't allowed). Second, decoherence is supposed to explain apparent counterfactual indefiniteness without the indefiniteness (i.e., it is supposed to explain the classical limit appears outside of the measurement process/projection postulate/collapse of the lab; it isn't relevant or needed to explain how the disturbance of measurements in quantum experiments designed to yield values via the projection postulate and the application of the relevant (observable) operator to the transcription of the manner of preparation of a specified system described by the wavefunction, density matrix, S-matrix, etc.).
They are ONE thing that splits in two after disentanglement.
Apart from the fact that this entails a single "thing" can exist outside of spacetime until it is somehow measured within spacetime, we are left with the fact that there is no "split". The application of the observable operator in lab 1 doesn't determine when, where, or whether there is any other "thing" that has any well-defined existence anywhere- it allows for the perfect prediction via correlations of the would-be result of another system where and when (or if) that system is "measured".
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Regarding neural correlates of consciousness, I would point you toward the works cited by Dr. Stanislas Dahaene in his new book "Consciousness and the Brain".
So I took a look at this popular source for the heck of it, and wasn't particularly impressed nor really disappointed. But it was interesting to do as you asked and look at the references cited because they include many authors I've worked with or under, including the director of my first graduate research lab (Caramazza)! I don't know Dahaene nor has anybody I've worked with said anything about him I recall, but many of the authors cited I've worked or interacted with or at least am familiar with. I can provide you with a better, more comprehensive, and more representative list of relative (academic) sources if you wish, including those that you would otherwise have to pay for.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not wholly skeptical of neuroimaging technology, as my field is neuroscience, I began my graduate research with neuroimaging research and (despite my increasing concentration of the physics of the brain and complex systems which, to the extent neuroimaging technologies are used, aren't used in ways that can be said to reduce the "mind" to the "brain" in any coherent manner), I have continued to work on neuroimaging research projects/experiments.
I linked to an open sources paper in an edited volume not because that constitutes anything remotely resembling the reasons which underlie my views (I've had my current opinions reflected in recent posts for some time, certainly before reading the source I linked to), but because I found it to be a source which demonstrates something of the fundamental problems in neuroscience research yet which is accessible to the non-specialist. I can give you thousands upon thousands of peer-reviewed journal articles, peer-reviewed/edited papers in volumes from various series or conference proceedings, monographs, doctoral theses, etc. Most of these are vastly more technical and few are more illustrative of current issues in human brain mapping/cognitive neuroscience imaging methodologies than the one I linked to (even the study upon which it is based is far more complicated yet says nothing more in terms of consequences/conclusions than the source I linked to).

So can I, since I am also an academic and many of my friends do work in this field (bio-stats and bio-engineering applications). I have often talked with them regarding these imaging and detection systems (a few are developing patents) and I never sense such skepticism. The problem of false positives exist everywhere and of course the accuracy and resolution needs improving and will continue to improve, but I can quote hundreds of excellent work on neural correlates of consciousness that go to great lengths to prevent such things. I am completely certain that the skepticism you are showing is something peculiar to you, not to the scientific field of either neuroscience or psychology, both of which are rapidly integrating the results of the insights into consciousness based on neuro-imaging technology in their introductory and advanced curricula (I know, because I have taken them).

I will point you to a balanced article on this:-
Neural correlates of consciousness: progress and problems (Koch et al Nature Reviews Neuroscience 17, 307–321 ,2016)



The technical issues you mention are common to every science (we have these kinds of arguments all the time in pollution and fire diagnostics related spectroscopy, my field). Sometime frequentists and p value will proves useful, other times it will prove misleading and a Bayesian method will be appropriate instead. The statisticians themselves will quarrel until eventually a set of standard practices for different types of diagnostics will be achieved through debate and consensus.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So I took a look at this popular source for the heck of it, and wasn't particularly impressed nor really disappointed. But it was interesting to do as you asked and look at the references cited because they include many authors I've worked with or under, including the director of my first graduate research lab (Caramazza)! I don't know Dahaene nor has anybody I've worked with said anything about him I recall, but many of the authors cited I've worked or interacted with or at least am familiar with. I can provide you with a better, more comprehensive, and more representative list of relative (academic) sources if you wish, including those that you would otherwise have to pay for.
Please do. I can access everything for now, but I will be leaving soon, so its good to have free resources. I still do not consider your skepticism warranted.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This is impossible. First, the wavefunction is an abstract entity which resides in a finite or infinite dimensional (complex) vector space, not in space (or in spacetime). Second, since the early 80s this "single wavefunction" has been detected as two photons, not as one (not as one "anything", let alone a single "wavefunction"). Third, the wavefunction describes the dynamical evolution of the system in terms of infinitely many possible states that are never realized/observed. It cannot correspond to a single photon even if it is possible to speak of it as describing a single ontological system (albeit one that can't be measured; see e.g., Alter, O., & Yamamoto, Y. (2001). Quantum Measurement of a Single System. Wiley.). Fourth, a "single wavefunction" can describe composite systems. Fifth, whatever the ontological realization of wavefunctions, when e.g., Gisin et al. obtained such correlations from systems separated by several kilometers, even if the wavefunction were supposed to describe a singular entity, then this entity is immaterial, nonlocal, and obtains observable properties in one region of our space or spacetime as soon as (and only after) an observable property of this immaterial system is determined via measurement/interaction in another region of space/spacetime. Thus the causes of the result of measurement outcomes (the registration values obtained via measurement) are again correlated and again follow 1-4 yet cannot be reduced any common "cause", let alone "identity".

Decoherence isn't necessary or relevant. First, because this is simply false. We can detect single photons without interference and decoherence cannot explain these correlations nor (if accurate as an explanation of the quantum-to-classical transition) is it relevant here, since the experiments ensure coherence until the projection/interference of the individual photons (decoherence isn't allowed). Second, decoherence is supposed to explain apparent counterfactual indefiniteness without the indefiniteness (i.e., it is supposed to explain the classical limit appears outside of the measurement process/projection postulate/collapse of the lab; it isn't relevant or needed to explain how the disturbance of measurements in quantum experiments designed to yield values via the projection postulate and the application of the relevant (observable) operator to the transcription of the manner of preparation of a specified system described by the wavefunction, density matrix, S-matrix, etc.).

Apart from the fact that this entails a single "thing" can exist outside of spacetime until it is somehow measured within spacetime, we are left with the fact that there is no "split". The application of the observable operator in lab 1 doesn't determine when, where, or whether there is any other "thing" that has any well-defined existence anywhere- it allows for the perfect prediction via correlations of the would-be result of another system where and when (or if) that system is "measured".

It is not possible to explain what I am getting at in words in a forum (not now when I am doing other things). I will point out the consistent histories framework of quantum mechanics. The paradoxes arise from what is called "mixing frameworks" that is not allowed in the quantum world. What I want you to do is to propose your own understanding of how to interpret quantum mechanics and associated books/articles that propound that understanding in some detail. I will critique it when I can.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-consistent-histories/

A more easier to read source

http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/4549/2/FinalCH.pdf
 
Last edited:

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
From that section:

The theory-based conception:

A property is physical iff it either is the sort of property that physical theory tells us about . . .

[. . . .]

The object-based conception:

A property is physical iff: it either is the sort of property required by a complete account of the intrinsic nature of paradigmatic physical objects and their constituents . . .

Aren't these definitions circular? They do not inform us how to distinguish something that is "physical" from something that is not.

If "physical" were an important concept in science or in investigating the world that is external to one's own mind, then why doesn't physics (or some other scientific discipline) use this concept? The science of physics does not restrict its investigations to only something definable as "physical". Physics doesn't define the term "physical"; it isn't an important, much less essential, concept in this scientific discipline. If by the methods of the physicist, the discovery is made that the most fundamental "stuff" of the universe, underlying all other actions, is something that is unobservable to their senses, something such as a quantity (such as energy), then that is what is discovered.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/#UndPhyFurIss
I take it that is your very clever way of agreeing about the circularity and vacuity of the definitions of "physical" given in Stoljar's article.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I wish to "defend" pantheism in the same way, employing exactly the ideas and assertions, as Daniel Stoljar has in "defending" physicialism in the SEP article (bolded below). In the end, you will presumably agree that I have argued for the thesis of pantheism as well (in the same way) as Stoljar has argued for the thesis of physicalism.

Physicalism is the thesis that everything is physical, or as contemporary philosophers sometimes put it, that everything supervenes on the physical.

Pantheism is the thesis that everything in its most fundamental nature is deific, or that everything supervenes on the deific.

I turn now to the condition question, the question of what it is for something (an object, an event, a process, a property) to be physical.

[. . . ]

The theory-based conception:

A property is physical iff it either is the sort of property that physical theory tells us about or else is a property which metaphysically (or logically) supervenes on the sort of property that physical theory tells us about.

[. . .]

The object-based conception:

A property is physical iff: it either is the sort of property required by a complete account of the intrinsic nature of paradigmatic physical objects and their constituents or else is a property which metaphysically (or logically) supervenes on the sort of property required by a complete account of the intrinsic nature of paradigmatic physical objects and their constituents.


I turn now to the condition the question of what it is for something (an object, an event, a process, a property) to be deific.

The theory-based conception:

A property (object, process, event) is deific iff it either is the sort of property (object, process, event) that deific theory tells us about or else is a property (object, process, event) which metaphysically (or logically) supervenes on the sort of property (object, process, event) that deific theory tells us about.

The object-based conception:

A property (object, process, event) is deific iff: it either is the sort of property (object, process, event) required by a complete account of the intrinsic nature of paradigmatic deific objects (properties, processes, events) and their constituents or else is a property (object, process, event) which metaphysically (or logically) supervenes on the sort of property (object, process, event) required by a complete account of the intrinsic nature of paradigmatic deific objects (properties, processes, events) and their constituents.

One might object that both conceptions are inadequate because they are circular, i.e., both appeal to the notion of something physical (a theory or an object) to characterize a physical property. But how can you legitimately explain the notion of one sort of physical thing by appealing to another?

However, the response to this is that circularity is only a problem if the conceptions are interpreted as providing a reductive analysis of the notion of the physical. But there is no reason why they should be interpreted as attempting to provide a reductive analysis. After all, we have many concepts that we understand without knowing how to analyze (cf. Lewis 1970). So there seems no reason to suppose that either the theory or object conception is providing anything else but a way of understanding the notion of the physical.


One might object that both conceptions are inadequate because they are circular, i.e., both appeal to the notion of something deific (a theory or an object) to characterize a deific property. But how can you legitimately explain the notion of one sort of deific thing by appealing to another?

However, the response to this is that circularity is only a problem if the conceptions are interpreted as providing a reductive analysis of the notion of the deific. But there is no reason why they should be interpreted as attempting to provide a reductive analysis. After all, we have many concepts that we understand without knowing how to analyze (cf. Lewis 1970). So there seems no reason to suppose that either the theory or object conception is providing anything else but a way of understanding the notion of the deific.




What a convenient rationalization for the fact that one has provided a circular definition for the one and only sort of "stuff" that is essential to one's metaphysical thesis and that requires a coherent definition in order for one's metaphysical thesis to be coherent!!

Stoljar goes on to claim that the idea of "physical" is somehow analogous to the idea of "water":

Earlier we said that the condition question was perfectly legitimate because it is legitimate to ask what the condition of being physical is that, according to physicalism, everything has. But this legitimate question should not be interpreted as the demand for a reductive analysis of the notion of the physical. Consider Thales again: it is right to ask Thales what he means by ‘water’ — and in so doing demand an understanding of the notion of water -- but it is wrong to demand of him a conceptual analysis of water.

But, unlike the idea of "physical," water is not a vacuous idea that rests on a circular definition. We don't have difficulty defining what water is:

"a transparent, odorless, tasteless liquid, a compound of hydrogen and oxygen, H 2 O, freezing at 32°F or 0°C and boiling at 212°F or 100°C, that in a more or less impure state constitutes rain, oceans, lakes, rivers, etc.: it contains 11.188 percent hydrogen and 88.812 percent oxygen, by weight." http://www.dictionary.com/browse/water?s=t

When Stoljar achieves such clarity and specificity about what the term "physical" refers to, he may be excused from engaging in any further "reductive conceptual analysis". Until then, all he has done is promote a corny metaphysical thesis whose fundamental entity (object, property, process, event) can only be defined circularly, and which has no relationship whatsoever to any scientific discipline or theory. The metaphysical thesis of physicalism is empty at its very core.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
I wish to "defend" pantheism in the same way, employing exactly the ideas and assertions, as Daniel Stoljar has in "defending" physicialism in the SEP article (bolded below). In the end, you will presumably agree that I have argued for the thesis of pantheism as well (in the same way) as Stoljar has argued for the thesis of physicalism.
The first thing you might want to note is that the article is a outline of the philosophical thesis and not an argument.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The first thing you might want to note is that the article is a outline of the philosophical thesis and not an argument.
It is certainly true that Stoljar's article does not contain any argument for the thesis of physicalism. Koldo linked to the article upon asserting that what was being referred to on this thread as "materialism" is actually "physicalism." So is there a defense of the thesis of physicalism?

I definitely believe that before one can coherently defend any thesis, one must be able to provide a non-circular definition of the primary thing that one's thesis refers to.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
It is certainly true that Stoljar's article does not contain any argument for the thesis of physicalism. Koldo linked to the article upon asserting that what was being referred to on this thread as "materialism" is actually "physicalism." So is there a defense of the thesis of physicalism?

I definitely believe that before one can coherently defend any thesis, one must be able to provide a non-circular definition of the primary thing that one's thesis refers to.
OK. Let's grant that it is ill-defined. How would you define it?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
OK. Let's grant that it is ill-defined. How would you define it?
I don't have a clue. I think the term "physical" refers to an ancient, quotidian concept that has no relation to the methods or findings of modern physics. I think "physical" originally referred to something that humans could enjoy some kind of sensory datum from.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I take it that is your very clever way of agreeing about the circularity and vacuity of the definitions of "physical" given in Stoljar's article.

I am merely pointing out that your reasoning regarding Physicalism is mentioned in the link I have provided. Including an answer to it.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I did not understand the head or tail of what you were getting at. What is deleted? We believe that the best model of our waking experiences is realism, that much of the objects observed in our phenomenological field exist independent of us observing them (the Nyaya-Vaisesika position). In that model there is no problem.

In the phenomenological model, there are no deletions. Everything ends when phenomenology of consciousness ends, since the person is annihilated whose perspective it was and for whose interest the model was constructed in the first place. Its a completely instrumental model with no ontological commitment at all. Its the Buddhist-Nagarjuna essenceless phenomenology where every aspect is only conventionally or instrumentally held.

You believe that your consciousness, intelligence, behaviour is constrained fully by the unconscious brain events. That is your belief of what realism is.

It is, as per my realism, limiting the freedom. It is like searching for a lost item only in left pant pocket when the item could very well be in the right pant pocket.

My understanding from the experience of world wide success of meditation and other techniques is that we can consciously flood body-brain with happy chemicals.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
So can I, since I am also an academic and many of my friends do work in this field (bio-stats and bio-engineering applications). I have often talked with them regarding these imaging and detection systems (a few are developing patents) and I never sense such skepticism. The problem of false positives exist everywhere and of course the accuracy and resolution needs improving and will continue to improve, but I can quote hundreds of excellent work on neural correlates of consciousness that go to great lengths to prevent such things. I am completely certain that the skepticism you are showing is something peculiar to you, not to the scientific field of either neuroscience or psychology, both of which are rapidly integrating the results of the insights into consciousness based on neuro-imaging technology in their introductory and advanced curricula (I know, because I have taken them).

I will point you to a balanced article on this:-
Neural correlates of consciousness: progress and problems (Koch et al Nature Reviews Neuroscience 17, 307–321 ,2016)



The technical issues you mention are common to every science (we have these kinds of arguments all the time in pollution and fire diagnostics related spectroscopy, my field). Sometime frequentists and p value will proves useful, other times it will prove misleading and a Bayesian method will be appropriate instead. The statisticians themselves will quarrel until eventually a set of standard practices for different types of diagnostics will be achieved through debate and consensus.
Just a question about your highly technical understanding and theory. Would one true communication between a deceased person and a medium prove your theory wrong?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Just a question about your highly technical understanding and theory. Would one true communication between a deceased person and a medium prove your theory wrong?
Of course. It has to be published in a prestigious scientific journal though.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You believe that your consciousness, intelligence, behaviour is constrained fully by the unconscious brain events. That is your belief of what realism is.

It is, as per my realism, limiting the freedom. It is like searching for a lost item only in left pant pocket when the item could very well be in the right pant pocket.

My understanding from the experience of world wide success of meditation and other techniques is that we can consciously flood body-brain with happy chemicals.
A certain subclass of brain events is consciousness. These consciousness events do cause chain reactions on other events in the brain creating the physical states associated with meditation.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Folk psychology
Folk astronomy had been extremely effective (in helping people plan their lives, agriculture, sailing etc, etc.) for thousands of years despite being completely wrong about almost everything (the sky was not a blue dome that rotates around a fixed earth, and the sun is not bright lamp that is driven around the earth by a god before sinking in the water..etc.) Same for folk physics (Aristotelian) and folk medicine. They are rough models that get the job done within certain limits. Indeed it because we have not progressed yet beyond folk psychology is that our grasp in the human mind, its diseases and ways to improve it beyond what it naturally can do has been far less limited when compared to what we can do with nature where we have transcended folk theories centuries ago.

This didn't answer the question at all. Why are therapists not trained to talk to patients in physiological terms? Why are things like meditation and self talk recommended, rather than visualizing physiological changes?

Solipsism

I have addressed this in a post to atanu. Here it is again

I can discuss the phenomenological stance in detail if you like. But I may point you to excellent introductory books like "The Phenomenological Mind" by Dan Zahavi .

I didn't see a refutation of solipsism, perhaps you can bold it?

Mechansim
I can address the advances made so far by neurosciences on the mechanism that makes consciousness possible as a brain process, but I feel it is a waste of time until you accept the plausibility of the identity theory based on the arguments for equivalency I presented before which you have simply refused to accept despite failing to refute them.

I did refute it, unless you think my face is generated by my mirror?

Axiomatic Self
I do not consider the self to be an axiom. It is an object who presence is felt in the phenomenological field, but it may disappear as well. (I have experience this in meditation as well as in trance or in-the-zone type experiences). The self becomes ubiquitous when I am doing verbal reasoning or conversing, which is why the "I" is so prominent in language, but other times this is not the case. The only thing that is certain is that the conscious field exists when its active in the waking and the dream states. Everything else is up for grabs.

You can reject the law of identity for all I care, but you better show how it is incorrect. In this case you need to show a single thing that can be known free of the Self.
 
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