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Any JW want to take a stab at this one?

David M

Well-Known Member
... and all with just micro evolution over the course of 6,000 years.?

Less than that, after all we have records from 2-3 thousand years ago that show that there were already multiple species of felines ranging in size from the housecat to the lion present near the fertile crescent.

A 'Cat' wild kind
A 'Cat' domestic kind

So you claim that its just hyper-evolution rather than super-hyper-evolution, that makes the claim so much more plausible. Of course it multiplies the space and food issue on the Ark rather a lot.

But skwim, I expected better from you! Seriously, did you really think that Noah needed to save the fish because a flood was coming??? :Do_O

If there had been a flood then the majority of fish species would have perished, there are not that many species of fish that do well with a rapid change of salt-water to brackish water or from fresh fater to brackish water, and back again in both cases.

And that ignores that fact that the volume of sediment needed to create the geological layers that the YECs claim were formed by the flood would make it more like a thin mud than water of any type.

So its back to super-hyper evolution of fish again.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Not here I don't. If I assumed he took two of each species this would amount to mega-millions of animals. But I didn't, and you know I didn't. I took you at your word that he took either 2 or 7 pairs of kinds as you represented them in your post.

Yup, and as you presented the concept of "kind" this amounted to:

7 pair (14 animals) of the clean (domestic?) kind.
2 pair (4 animals) of the creeping kind.
2 pair (4 animals) of the wild kind.
2 pair (4 animals) of the water kind.
7 pair (14 animals) of the flying kind.
and not

A 'Cat' wild kind
A 'Cat' domestic kind
A 'Dog' wild kind
A 'Dog' domestic kind
An 'Equine' kind
A 'bovine' kind
etc etc etc​

Thing is, I don't see any rational for your notion of "kind" here. All you've done is arbitrarily use "kind" as you liked. At least in your first post you were relying on a single source that was quite specific: flying kind, creeping kind, etc. Now you want to abandon this so as to account for the plethora of species that evolved from the forty. I don't blame you for trying to avoid the dilemma, but this isn't going to do it.

With the exception of a few euryhaline fish, such as the salmon and sardine, freshwater fish cannot live in salt water and vice versa.

"Some fish species can live in both freshwater and saltwater. These species are called euryhaline fish. However, most fish species can only survive in one or the other based on their salinity tolerance, or how much salt their bodies can handle."
source

So, Noah would have to have taken 2 pair (4 animals) of the water kind on board. And just what do you think these four animals were; goldfish, whales, sponges, or something else?

Salt water is heavier then fresh water... couldnt the fish who prefer salt water simply have stayed within the salt water layer and the fresh water fish remain in the upper layers?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
From discussions with JWs it appears to be a common tactic, and most likely taught in their assembly programs and field training; perhaps not overtly, but certainly by implication and example. It's hardly an admirable character of the JW religion, and certainly a loathsome stratagem, but when one considers the product they're attempting to sell it's not unreasonable. Unreasonable ideas demand unreasonable sales tactics. The most reprehensible thing about their conversion program is the arrogance with which they go about it: "So what if we use disreputable tactics, it's the end result that counts." FWIW, this little bit of "business" strategy was relayed to me by an ex-JW.

Spoken like a true apostate! They teach better then we do and their strategies are far more damaging.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Spoken like a true apostate! They teach better then we do and their strategies are far more damaging.
He couldn't be an apostate, you have to be a believer first. Don't they teach you that?

a·pos·tate
əˈpäsˌtāt,-tit/
noun
noun: apostate; plural noun: apostates
  1. 1.
    a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.
    synonyms: dissenter, defector, deserter, traitor, backslider, turncoat;More
    nonconformist;
    schismatic;
    archaicheretic;
    rarerecusant, recreant, tergiversator
    "after 50 years as an apostate, he returned to the faith"
    antonyms: follower
adjective
adjective: apostate
  1. 1.
    abandoning a religious or political belief or principle.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
They aren't directed by a "director". They are directed by natural processes, in the same way that water flowing down a riverbed is directed by the ever-changing outline of that riverbed.

Strange analogy....if a film needs a director, then how come nature doesn't need a director? I am waiting for someone to explain to me how a brainless plant makes the replica of an insect as part of its strategy to keep its species pollinated and perpetuated without an intelligent direction from "someone"...?

Yes. A program that preceded them in life by their ancestors and which they were lucky enough to carry. It's the same reason why men's beards grow faster in the winter and/or when they spend more time outdoors.

All undirected chance......like lighting a fire for warmth. No one directs that of course. When humans want to warm themselves they had to invent the means to cause flames. Funny how no animals warm themselves by deliberately lighting a fire.


Meet the Okapi
1002140447_okapi_3.jpg

It's the only non-extinct relative of the Giraffe.

Okapi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And what has belonging to the same "kind" got to do with looks or size. Look at felines...all shapes and sizes, but all felines. Leopards, panthers, cheetahs, manx, mountain lions...all cats.

How do scientists determine what "family" of animals a specific species belongs to?

This is what your Wiki link said.....

Cladistics (from Greekκλάδος, klados, i.e. "branch")[1] is an approach to biological classification in which organisms are grouped together based on whether or not they have one or more shared unique characteristics that come from the group's last common ancestor and are not present in more distant ancestors. Therefore, members of the same group are thought to share a common history and are considered to be more closely related.[2][3][4][5]

Now, I don't look at things through the same lens as you do, but that is tantamount to guesswork in my understanding. If it has a characteristic in common with something living, it must belong to the same family. OK but where do we then see this animal as not still belonging the same "kind" as its supposed ancestor?

And where are the intermediate species?


Meet the Sivathere:

DSC_6056_Sivathere_WCFP.jpg


Down on Earth and up in the Sky in the Karoo | ELF Astronomy

Now, this looks supiciously like a bovine. How do they know it's a giraffe?

The link begins by saying what all writings supporting evolutionary science conveys.....

"The majority of the bones visible seem to be those of the short-necked giraffe or Sivathere but there is evidence of wales, seals, various elephants and different sabre toothed cats as well."

The language is self explanatory. Things are not always what they "SEEM" to be.

Y'all take a lot for granted.


Meet the Samotherium

You trust your teachers to be telling the truth. How does that make you different to me? You assume that the evidence is interpreted correctly...what if it isn't? What if they have been misinterpreting the evidence all these years? Building their house of straw......how would you know? It looks to me like pre-conceived ideas forcing conclusions, rather than allowing the evidence to speak for itself.

tumblr_m66l2lnswy1qkd7h4o3_1280.jpg




Natural Selection

I have seen many illustrations and computer animations that come out of people's imaginations and presented as fact. But the fact is, no one knows what these creatures looked like from their skeletons...they can guess through.
Since it is claimed that all life originated from the primordial soup, then all life forms came from the same ancestors way back. Isn't it amazing what undirected chance mutations can achieve when you give then a few hundred million years?

Yet if they all had the same Maker, who used the same raw materials in his designs, then that would explain a lot, without evolution ever being mentioned.

We had a designer and Maker who is the most brilliant scientist in existence. Ask the men who seek to copy his designs. No one wants to talk about bio-mimetics? How come it takes someone with a scienc degree to copy the designs in nature but it took Mr Nobody to design them in the first place? Amazing huh?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Salt water is heavier then fresh water... couldnt the fish who prefer salt water simply have stayed within the salt water layer and the fresh water fish remain in the upper layers?
You're correct that saltwater is heavier than fresh water, but not by much (Fresh water has a density of 1.0 while salt water has a density of 1.025. The ratio between the two is 41:40. ) But for various reasons the oceans don't sort their salinity layers this way, but rather as follows.

water_layers.png

As the illustration shows, the ocean's least saline water is deeper than it's most saline. And unfortunately, because of the deeper water's decreased oxygen level, its increased increased cold and pressure freshwater fish cannot live in it. Moreover, it's still saline. Even moderate salinity would kill most freshwater fish.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Less than that, after all we have records from 2-3 thousand years ago that show that there were already multiple species of felines ranging in size from the housecat to the lion present near the fertile crescent.

Amazingly all still felines. None of them evolving into any other species of anything else.

So you claim that its just hyper-evolution rather than super-hyper-evolution, that makes the claim so much more plausible. Of course it multiplies the space and food issue on the Ark rather a lot.

Again you put human limitations on the one who created all things. It was God who brought the animals species to Noah. He did not go out and collect them. We have no idea if or how he may have accelerated their spread after the flood because we are not supplied with all the details. Yet we do not discount that "all things are possible with God".

It was God who supplied the design for the ark. He specified the materials and the dimensions. So God knew how much space was required to perform the job. There is no human involved in anything but the construction. It must be noted that the ark was not a ship, it was a huge box, not designed to navigate, but only to float. The dimensions recorded in the scriptures allow for plenty of room.

The height to width to length ratios of the ark have been used by the ship builders all these centuries. It is an incredibly stable design, tested in wave tanks.

If there had been a flood then the majority of fish species would have perished, there are not that many species of fish that do well with a rapid change of salt-water to brackish water or from fresh fater to brackish water, and back again in both cases.

Again, from a purely human viewpoint. The Creator is not bound by our limited understanding of his abilities. He is not human...he never was. Why do you think he is is limited in anything. Someone who can create the universe is not going to find a minute flood on this insignificant speck, to be beyond his capacity to execute successfully in accord with his purpose.

And that ignores that fact that the volume of sediment needed to create the geological layers that the YECs claim were formed by the flood would make it more like a thin mud than water of any type.

We are not young earth creationists....can we possibly get that through the thick heads around here? The earth itself is very ancient...the Bible does not state otherwise. There is no timeframe between the creation of "the heavens and the earth" and it's being modified for habitation.

So its back to super-hyper evolution of fish again.

Seriously....:rolleyes:
 

McBell

Unbound
Amazingly all still felines. None of them evolving into any other species of anything else.
You do know there is more than one species of feline, right?

Seems you are confusing your word "kind" with the word "species".
They do not mesh up at all.

Again you put human limitations on the one who created all things. It was God who brought the animals species to Noah. He did not go out and collect them. We have no idea if or how he may have accelerated their spread after the flood because we are not supplied with all the details. Yet we do not discount that "all things are possible with God".
A safety net that is worthless outside your faith.

It was God who supplied the design for the ark. He specified the materials and the dimensions. So God knew how much space was required to perform the job. There is no human involved in anything but the construction. It must be noted that the ark was not a ship, it was a huge box, not designed to navigate, but only to float. The dimensions recorded in the scriptures allow for plenty of room.
Another safety net that is worthless outside your faith.

The height to width to length ratios of the ark have been used by the ship builders all these centuries. It is an incredibly stable design, tested in wave tanks.
Source please.

Again, from a purely human viewpoint. The Creator is not bound by our limited understanding of his abilities. He is not human...he never was. Why do you think he is is limited in anything. Someone who can create the universe is not going to find a minute flood on this insignificant speck, to be beyond his capacity to execute successfully in accord with his purpose.
Again, a safety net that is worthless outside your faith.

We are not young earth creationists....can we possibly get that through the thick heads around here? The earth itself is very ancient...the Bible does not state otherwise. There is no timeframe between the creation of "the heavens and the earth" and it's being modified for habitation.
I have never claimed you were.

Seriously....:rolleyes:
Your faith requires far to many lies and dishonesty for me to take it seriously.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
You're correct that saltwater is heavier than fresh water, but not by much (Fresh water has a density of 1.0 while salt water has a density of 1.025. The ratio between the two is 41:40. ) But for various reasons the oceans don't sort their salinity layers this way, but rather as follows.

water_layers.png

As the illustration shows, the ocean's least saline water is deeper than it's most saline. And unfortunately, because of the deeper water's decreased oxygen level, its increased increased cold and pressure freshwater fish cannot live in it. Moreover, it's still saline. Even moderate salinity would kill most freshwater fish.

Swim, does it rain salt water?

My guess is that waters which deluged the earth were fresh waters....and the freshwater fish lived in the rivers which are far inland and away from the oceans.
And it is freshwaters which flow down to the ocean. No matter how deep and wide those inland rivers became, they certainly did not all become ocean water. We have floods all the time and those flood waters eventually find their way into the ocean....it certainly doesnt happen the other way around so im sure those freshwater fish were able to survive. I mean look at it this way, they are still here today, so they must have, right?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Salt water is heavier then fresh water... couldnt the fish who prefer salt water simply have stayed within the salt water layer and the fresh water fish remain in the upper layers?
When trillions of tons of rain falling down creating monster sized whirlpools? Even so, if salt water is heavier, that means it's farther down, which means greater pressure, which means fish that will die because it can't take that pressure or be without plankton for food, and so on...

There's a billion of problems with the flood story.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Strange analogy....if a film needs a director, then how come nature doesn't need a director? I am waiting for someone to explain to me how a brainless plant makes the replica of an insect as part of its strategy to keep its species pollinated and perpetuated without an intelligent direction from "someone"...?
Cause nature is real life, not a movie. I already explained that in specifics, the general answer to all your questions is "Natural Selection."
All undirected chance......like lighting a fire for warmth. No one directs that of course. When humans want to warm themselves they had to invent the means to cause flames. Funny how no animals warm themselves by deliberately lighting a fire.
Dolphins think humans are really stupid since we can't catch squid by echo-locating. I think you were making a point here, what was it again?
And what has belonging to the same "kind" got to do with looks or size. Look at felines...all shapes and sizes, but all felines. Leopards, panthers, cheetahs, manx, mountain lions...all cats.
More properly termed "felids" a family level grouping, based on the following criteria. Felids are obligate canivores. Their canines are are large and robust. Their upper third premolar and lower molar are adapted as carnassials. Felid jaws can only move vertically, which prevents them from being able to chew but makes it easier for their jaws to hold struggling prey. This is, in large part compensated for by horny papillae that cover their tongue and rasp meat from prey as well as aid in grooming. All felids have protractable claws attached to the terminal bone of the toe with a robust ligament. There are (nrmally) five toes on the forefeet and four on the hindfeet. The baculum is shorter than in the Canidae
How do scientists determine what "family" of animals a specific species belongs to?
Family is a taxonomic "rank." Such ranks, including species are conveniences that try to group organisms by similarity (a.k.a. the distance of their evolutionary relationship).
This is what your Wiki link said.....

Cladistics (from Greekκλάδος, klados, i.e. "branch")[1] is an approach to biological classification in which organisms are grouped together based on whether or not they have one or more shared unique characteristics that come from the group's last common ancestor and are not present in more distant ancestors. Therefore, members of the same group are thought to share a common history and are considered to be more closely related.[2][3][4][5]

Now, I don't look at things through the same lens as you do, but that is tantamount to guesswork in my understanding. If it has a characteristic in common with something living, it must belong to the same family. OK but where do we then see this animal as not still belonging the same "kind" as its supposed ancestor?
Cladistics is a filed that is applied to the classification of all sorts of things, organisms, machine parts, automobiles, aircraft, etc. Your attempting to grock cladistics at your level of understanding, by looking in wiki is like your trying to drink out of a firehose ... you're going to get it wrong, even if you were not predisposed to do so, as you are.

Where I to give you an assortment of vehicles, a jeep, a mustang, a truck, a wright flyer, a p-51, a cesna skymaster, a bulldog tank and an amphibious tracked weasel and ask you to classify them ... you'd apply cladistics. You could classify them by name, but that would make the mustang car and the p-51 indistinguishable, you could classify them as civilian vs military but with the exception of the mustang car there are military and civilian versions of each item, you could sort them into land vehicles vs aircraft but there's that mustang problem again. You could sort them by chassis length ... but the jeep and the weasel use the same chassis, you could classify them by animal name vs non-animal name or by the number of wheels. Do you start to see the issues? So you apply more than one characteristic in general and use differences in single characteristics to break ties.
Now, this looks supiciously like a bovine. How do they know it's a giraffe?
I do not know what the exact criteria are, since it is only known from fossils I'd suspect that it a suite of osteolgical characteristics such nerve locations and basocranial circulation patterns as well as over all skeletal similarities. There is, undoubtedly, or more such characters that exclude it from the bovines ... but I'd have to ask a specialist to determine what it is.

Your thinking that it looks like this of that is entirely irrelevant, I suspect that if presented with the skeletons of a fish, an ichthyosaur and a dophin you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference.
The link begins by saying what all writings supporting evolutionary science conveys.....

"The majority of the bones visible seem to be those of the short-necked giraffe or Sivathere but there is evidence of wales, seals, various elephants and different sabre toothed cats as well."

The language is self explanatory. Things are not always what they "SEEM" to be.

Y'all take a lot for granted.
That quote is from a travel blog written by Edward Foster, an amateur astronomer whose sole scientific credential is :Nature Guide (Level One). Get real, the scientific community as a whole is not responsible for his blogs.
You trust your teachers to be telling the truth. How does that make you different to me? You assume that the evidence is interpreted correctly...what if it isn't? What if they have been misinterpreting the evidence all these years? Building their house of straw......how would you know? It looks to me like pre-conceived ideas forcing conclusions, rather than allowing the evidence to speak for itself.
Perhaps it is in my training and education? Sure I assume that the classification of SIvathere is correct, but if it was of any real import I could pick up the phone and talk to the experts and likely even have a cast of the skull on loan. That is hardly a house of straw. What it looks like to you, who knows none of this and has never operated in this world, is entirely irreverent.
I have seen many illustrations and computer animations that come out of people's imaginations and presented as fact. But the fact is, no one knows what these creatures looked like from their skeletons...they can guess through.
Usually such illustration are labeled as artist's depictions and know to be best guesses ... so what?
Since it is claimed that all life originated from the primordial soup, then all life forms came from the same ancestors way back. Isn't it amazing what undirected chance mutations can achieve when you give then a few hundred million years?
When are you going to stop with the same stupid strawman that you've been repeatedly told does not apply. Please either show where that claim was made of stop using using, else you will be branded as a liar.
Yet if they all had the same Maker, who used the same raw materials in his designs, then that would explain a lot, without evolution ever being mentioned

We had a designer and Maker who is the most brilliant scientist in existence. Ask the men who seek to copy his designs. No one wants to talk about bio-mimetics? How come it takes someone with a scienc degree to copy the designs in nature but it took Mr Nobody to design them in the first place? Amazing huh?
Amazing that you'd believe such rubbish.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
You do know there is more than one species of feline, right?

Seems you are confusing your word "kind" with the word "species".
They do not mesh up at all.

There are many species within a kind. According to one non JW source......

"The word species and the biblical word "kind" are often used interchangeably. This is incorrect since they are not synonymous. The biblical word "kind" denotes an organism that reproduces others like itself. The species concept is much narrower than this; therefore many species can be included in a single biblical "kind." The word kind is probably closer to the modern taxonomic unit of genus, and in some cases the larger taxonomic unit, family."

Seems like a reasonable definition.

A safety net that is worthless outside your faith.

Worthless to you...important to me. Your belief system has no safety net. If it falls apart, you have nowhere to go.

Source please.

These ones seem like quite reasonable explanations.

http://www.amendez.com/NAES/Noahs_Ark_Articles_files/NAS Size of the Ark-Handout.pdf/. (Quoted from above)

The dimensions and stability of Noah's ark"

I have never claimed you were.

I don't believe that my comment was directed at you.

Your faith requires far to many lies and dishonesty for me to take it seriously.

Blah blah blah Mestemia......How many times do you have to accuse people of lying and dishonesty when the view expressed simply doesn't agree with your own chosen belief. No one expects you to take anything seriously. All you do is snipe from the sidelines. What positive thing do you ever contribute? Your negativity is getting a bit old.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Cause nature is real life, not a movie. I already explained that in specifics, the general answer to all your questions is "Natural Selection."

You have "explained" a lot of things and the more you explain, the more cracks I see opening up in your arguments.

Define "nature".

Dolphins think humans are really stupid since we can't catch squid by echo-locating.

They confided that to you, did they? o_O

More properly termed "felids" a family level grouping, based on the following criteria. Felids are obligate canivores. Their canines are are large and robust. Their upper third premolar and lower molar are adapted as carnassials. Felid jaws can only move vertically, which prevents them from being able to chew but makes it easier for their jaws to hold struggling prey. This is, in large part compensated for by horny papillae that cover their tongue and rasp meat from prey as well as aid in grooming. All felids have protractable claws attached to the terminal bone of the toe with a robust ligament. There are (nrmally) five toes on the forefeet and four on the hindfeet. The baculum is shorter than in the Canidae

Family is a taxonomic "rank." Such ranks, including species are conveniences that try to group organisms by similarity (a.k.a. the distance of their evolutionary relationship).
Cladistics is a filed that is applied to the classification of all sorts of things, organisms, machine parts, automobiles, aircraft, etc. Your attempting to grock cladistics at your level of understanding, by looking in wiki is like your trying to drink out of a firehose ... you're going to get it wrong, even if you were not predisposed to do so, as you are.

But Wiki is the laymans gateway to understanding many things....please correct Wiki as we are invited to do. It will be your contribution to the education of the moronic masses who disagree with you. :)
Just use the K.I.S.S principle. OK? When you try to dazzle us with science it just ends up sounding silly.

Where I to give you an assortment of vehicles, a jeep, a mustang, a truck, a wright flyer, a p-51, a cesna skymaster, a bulldog tank and an amphibious tracked weasel and ask you to classify them ... you'd apply cladistics. You could classify them by name, but that would make the mustang car and the p-51 indistinguishable, you could classify them as civilian vs military but with the exception of the mustang car there are military and civilian versions of each item, you could sort them into land vehicles vs aircraft but there's that mustang problem again. You could sort them by chassis length ... but the jeep and the weasel use the same chassis, you could classify them by animal name vs non-animal name or by the number of wheels. Do you start to see the issues? So you apply more than one characteristic in general and use differences in single characteristics to break ties.

There is one problem with this analogy...the vehicles did not evolve. They were designed and created by intelligent minds. Regardless of the crossover characteristics...they are all motor vehicles.

I do not know what the exact criteria are, since it is only known from fossils I'd suspect that it a suite of osteolgical characteristics such nerve locations and basocranial circulation patterns as well as over all skeletal similarities. There is, undoubtedly, or more such characters that exclude it from the bovines ... but I'd have to ask a specialist to determine what it is.

And don't tell me, let me guess......you would only take the word of a fellow evolutionist?
A scientist who wanted to tell you something you didn't want to hear, would not be taken seriously.....would he/she?

Your thinking that it looks like this of that is entirely irrelevant, I suspect that if presented with the skeletons of a fish, an ichthyosaur and a dophin you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference.

I think I would be able to tell that they were all marine creatures....none of which evolved from land creatures. :D
I have been down this road before and I can assure you there is no real evidence that land animals ever became marine creatures. It is an assumption, not a fact. Assumptions can be made from fragments of bone or a single tooth. That is a lot of assumption.

That quote is from a travel blog written by Edward Foster, an amateur astronomer whose sole scientific credential is :Nature Guide (Level One). Get real, the scientific community as a whole is not responsible for his blogs.

Perhaps you need to take that up with your fellow evolutionist who posted it. ;)

Perhaps it is in my training and education? Sure I assume that the classification of SIvathere is correct, but if it was of any real import I could pick up the phone and talk to the experts and likely even have a cast of the skull on loan. That is hardly a house of straw. What it looks like to you, who knows none of this and has never operated in this world, is entirely irreverent.

And again it would be a fellow proponent of evolution that you would consult. What does that mean to me? I am not one bit impressed by a person's education or opinion of themselves or their standing in the scientific community. Sorry. People can be misled regardless of how clever they think they are. Egg sticks to all faces.

Usually such illustration are labeled as artist's depictions and know to be best guesses ... so what?

Again, this is evidence of there being no "FACTS". An artist's impression is not a photograph...it is an assumption made by someone and illustrated to give others the same impression that they want to promote. Computer aided imagery has revolutionised the the teaching of evolution. Now we can all see how these creatures looked and walked and behaved when no one was around to observe any of it. That puts it in the realms of fantasy. It makes a good movie but is any of it real?

When are you going to stop with the same stupid strawman that you've been repeatedly told does not apply. Please either show where that claim was made of stop using using, else you will be branded as a liar.

Is it, or is it not true, that evolution teaches that life began as a simple single celled organism (give or take the primordial soup) and that, to cut a long story short...billions of years later voila!! All life as we know it somehow evolved undirected by any intelligence, from that simple cell to become all the varieties of living things that have ever existed? Billions of them. True or false?

Amazing that you'd believe such rubbish.

Give me your educated answer to the "rubbish" and I will be satisfied. Tell the readers here how a brainless plant manufactures the replica of an insect onto the cusp of its flower (complete with the correct pheromone) to guarantee the pollination it needs for its species to survive. How does natural selection explain that?

It appears that you are reduced to insults instead of answers. We all know what that means......:rolleyes:
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
There are many species within a kind. According to one non JW source......

"The word species and the biblical word "kind" are often used interchangeably. This is incorrect since they are not synonymous. The biblical word "kind" denotes an organism that reproduces others like itself. The species concept is much narrower than this; therefore many species can be included in a single biblical "kind." The word kind is probably closer to the modern taxonomic unit of genus, and in some cases the larger taxonomic unit, family."

Seems like a reasonable definition.
Except for the fact that the quote is used in many wacko creationist sites such as:
God fit them all in....with room left over

Fighting Commies For Health Insurance!

(Not your average pregnancy blog.)

The Universal nature of the Flood

So seeing as the world is supposed to end on saturday

etc. Hardly creditable sources for scientific definitions.
Worthless to you...important to me. Your belief system has no safety net. If it falls apart, you have nowhere to go.
Lacking a belief system I have no need of a safety net.
More stupid creationist sites put together by morons, especially the second that fails to consider that a wooden hulled vessel of that size would, as it worked in even rather gentle seas, force open the ship's seams (see the history of the Wyoming, an American ship that flexed in heavy seas, causing the long planks to twist and buckle. This allowed sea water into the hold, which had to be continuously pumped out)
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Swim, does it rain salt water?
Not that I know of.

My guess is that waters which deluged the earth were fresh waters....and the freshwater fish lived in the rivers which are far inland and away from the oceans.
And it is freshwaters which flow down to the ocean. No matter how deep and wide those inland rivers became, they certainly did not all become ocean water. We have floods all the time and those flood waters eventually find their way into the ocean....it certainly doesnt happen the other way around so im sure those freshwater fish were able to survive. I mean look at it this way, they are still here today, so they must have, right?
In the end it doesn't really matter what fish can live where because the Bible says,

Genesis 7:23
God destroyed (blotted out) every living thing that was upon the face of the earth; man and animals and the creeping things and the birds of the heavens were destroyed (blotted out) from the land. Only Noah remained alive, and those who were with him in the ark.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
When trillions of tons of rain falling down creating monster sized whirlpools? Even so, if salt water is heavier, that means it's farther down, which means greater pressure, which means fish that will die because it can't take that pressure or be without plankton for food, and so on...

There's a billion of problems with the flood story.

not one of them has any bearing on how we live,
Not that I know of.

In the end it doesn't really matter about what fish can live where because the Bible says,

Genesis 7:23
God destroyed (blotted out) every living thing that was upon the face of the earth; man and animals and the creeping things and the birds of the heavens were destroyed (blotted out) from the land. Only Noah remained alive, and those who were with him in the ark.

on the 'face of the earth'... wouldnt that be a reference to the 'land' ?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
By the way, I am still waiting for an answer to my question as to why, if the Bible says that flying creatures were created before land animals, the oldest known land animal pre-dates the oldest known bird by over 200 million years. It's a simple question.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
You have "explained" a lot of things and the more you explain, the more cracks I see opening up in your arguments.
an unsupported claim.
Define "nature".
if you do not know what nature is by now you might as well give up.
They confided that to you, did they? o_O
Don't be a fool ... it simply demonstrates your taxon based bias.
But Wiki is the laymans gateway to understanding many things....please correct Wiki as we are invited to do. It will be your contribution to the education of the moronic masses who disagree with you. :)
Just use the K.I.S.S principle. OK? When you try to dazzle us with science it just ends up sounding silly.
I do a lot of wiki work, both original contributions and editing, in those fields that I am expert in. But I will leave a note on this.
There is one problem with this analogy...the vehicles did not evolve. They were designed and created by intelligent minds. Regardless of the crossover characteristics...they are all motor vehicles.
Your reading comprehension is flagging, that was a paragraph to help you to understand cladistics, something you are completely ignorant of.
And don't tell me, let me guess......you would only take the word of a fellow evolutionist?
A scientist who wanted to tell you something you didn't want to hear, would not be taken seriously.....would he/she?
an unsupported claim. I take and have taken quite seriously many scientists who were out of the mainstream and who were advancing unpopular views, e.g., Bob Bakker when he was a grad student taking heat for flogging Hot Blooded Dinosaurs for example. His arguments were powerful and I felt irrefutable.
I think I would be able to tell that they were all marine creatures....none of which evolved from land creatures. :D
an unsupported claim but your trying to stray from the question. What I said was, "I suspect that if presented with the skeletons of a fish, an ichthyosaur and a dophin you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference." I take it that my statement was true and that your impression that the Sivathere was a bovine was similarly meaningless puffery on your part since you lack the expertise to differentiate between the two.
I have been down this road before and I can assure you there is no real evidence that land animals ever became marine creatures. It is an assumption, not a fact. Assumptions can be made from fragments of bone or a single tooth. That is a lot of assumption.
an unsupported claim, your mouth is full of tongue but your brain is not full of ideas.
Perhaps you need to take that up with your fellow evolutionist who posted it. ;)
In any case it is not authoritative.
And again it would be a fellow proponent of evolution that you would consult. What does that mean to me? I am not one bit impressed by a person's education or opinion of themselves or their standing in the scientific community. Sorry. People can be misled regardless of how clever they think they are. Egg sticks to all faces.
an unsupported claim, you have yet to show that you have anything to offer but hot air.
Again, this is evidence of there being no "FACTS". An artist's impression is not a photograph...it is an assumption made by someone and illustrated to give others the same impression that they want to promote. Computer aided imagery has revolutionised the the teaching of evolution. Now we can all see how these creatures looked and walked and behaved when no one was around to observe any of it. That puts it in the realms of fantasy. It makes a good movie but is any of it real?
they are as good as can be made based on knowledge, inference and sometimes a bit of guesswork. No one pretends that they are totally, perfectly accurate, but that hardly puts it in the realm of fantasy either, the animals were real, the time frames were real, the skin colors were based on best guess, what's your problem, you didn't like the colors?
Is it, or is it not true, that evolution teaches that life began as a simple single celled organism (give or take the primordial soup) and that, to cut a long story short...billions of years later voila!! All life as we know it somehow evolved undirected by any intelligence, from that simple cell to become all the varieties of living things that have ever existed? Billions of them. True or false?
As a gross oversimplification ... true.
Give me your educated answer to the "rubbish" and I will be satisfied. Tell the readers here how a brainless plant manufactures the replica of an insect onto the cusp of its flower (complete with the correct pheromone) to guarantee the pollination it needs for its species to survive. How does natural selection explain that?
I already did that.
It appears that you are reduced to insults instead of answers. We all know what that means......:rolleyes:
It means I do not suffer fools gladly, never have, never will.
 
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